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| Thread: Make WOG a little bit more realistic | |
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elimicmat
Hired Hero
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posted October 15, 2008 10:36 PM |
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Make WOG a little bit more realistic
OK, here is a little idea I've been thinking of. Now, I know there are like millions of ideas here, but I need to know if this is possible to do with ERM script, or if its just to complicated. Being a huge fan of fantasy books and games, especially Baldurs gate saga, I would like to change a lot of things in Homm3/WOG. To give you an idea what I mean let's look at the necromancers. You know the totaly overpowered bastards :-)))
To make it simple I just name the upgraded creature:
Skeleton Warriors.
First of all, they are rather "skinny" wouldn't you say? This mean that hitting those bones with arrows seems both hard and well not the best choice. So when attacking skeleton warriors with arrows they should only take like 10%.
Second: Since they don't have a brain nor eyes, all mindspells and blind should not be affection the skeletons
Zombies: Just a little fun idea here. A fun myth is that Zombies are on a straight brain diet (See Simpsons for example *hehe*). So when attacking creatures that are "smart" (i.e humans) they should make a more aggresive attack and thus make more damage.
Wraiths: These guys are really underpowered. In D&D they are a real pain in the *ss. Mostly because they are incorporeal. But that means they can't hit either, so they must make them self corporeal to strike. This means that the opposition has a 50% chance to strike back before they get incorporeal again.
Vampire lord: They on the other hand a greatly overpowered. First of all, they aint to glad about crosses, and christians has a lot of those. So Vampires shouldn't be allowed to hit any castle unit (except griffons) since the other inhibitants logically wears a cross around the neck. They do believe in angels don't they??
Second: Using Vampires in sieges should be just plain stupid. According to most movies and books a vampire can't come in unless it's invited and I don't think someone invited them... So let them fly around outside the castles and have fun but no entering.
Third: They can lifedrain to many creatures. Ofcourse not the undead, but so many more. Just a few examples. Mighty gorgon and dragons (to hard skin to sink the teeth in), Genies and golems (don't have blood) and creatures with fire all around (they don't like fire either).
Fourth: Firespells make HUGE damage, but air and earth spells don't
Power liches: Now, why do they make them such wimps??? The are the masters of magic dammit.
First: They always seems to attack first, and so the should, with the possibility to cast ANY(!) spell, but like enchanters, no matter if you have seven stacks you only get one spell. They are however not fast, so the speed is correct but somehow attacking first.
Second: Liches always cast lots and lots of protectionspell around themselves. This means that Liches should start fighting surrounded by Stone skin, Magic mirror, Prot from "elements" and such. They will last for about 4-5 turns.
Third: They are immune to all spells (except level 5 spells to which they have 80*% immunity (like dwarves)).
Fourth: Of course this makes them really powerful so a maximum of ONE/week is enough. Probably higher cost as well.
Dread knights: Nothing comes to mind right now.
Bone dragon: Best looking unit IMO, but it should not be able to fly.
Ghost dragon: Incorporeal, but takes longer to change solid back and forth so the opposition have a 75% chance of hitting them in combat.
Blood dragon: Just like vampires, life drain can't be made on some monsters.
Now, this rules just make necromancers even stronger and that's not a good idea so here are some general changes:
First: They should not automatically have "Necromancy" as a skill. They just have to find it like everybody else.
Second: Since they are dead, healing spells should actually hurt them instead.
Third: Those who wants to play with them and really enjoy the game should DISABLE THE CLOAK!!!!!!!!!
What do you say about this idea? I guess some things can be made real easy with the creatures stats, and some with ERM. Most of all I want the script for arrows vs. skeletons.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 15, 2008 11:17 PM |
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Thats always the problem with new ideas: you come here and have a lot of idea (bad or good-does not matter) about a single faction. Necromancer faction is already the most gifted, and banned in almost all MP games.
If WOG implements only a third of what you propose then nothing will be match for them.
So until you come with same kind of ideas for all the factions, I do not see how the game could survive at this major change.
I don't say your ideas are bad, some of them are nice and fits well at the necro atmosphere. Just that they will definitely unbalance the game.
About blind, undead units are immune to it, but I think it was a typo error, of course you knew it before asking major changes, isn't it?
A necromancer without the skill would be just strange. Of course the skill will be offered on the first level up, so do you think it will change something?
Skeletons with air shield 90% and immune to slow can lead to major pain in first development's phase for towns which rely mainly on shooters, as castle or rampart. As in most random maps level 1 are every where, it could greatly disturb and prohibit those towns achievements early in the game.
On the other side it will GREATLY simplify any shooters annihilation with low levels units. Don't you thing that beating 20 archers on first day with 30-40 skeletons would make the necro unstoppable?
Unfortunately the "healing" spells have double purpose: they remove curses and heal also. So having the "cure" spell hurting necro units and not removing any curses will make them on the other side too easy to defeat. But of course you knew it already isnt' it?
I do not see how this could work.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Darkloke
Promising
Famous Hero
WoG Team artist
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posted October 15, 2008 11:31 PM |
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Well, if u like D&D (as me too ) u would probably like to implement a full set of D&D abilities to the creatures (as written in MM manual). But nevertheless because i have similar plans i'll try to analyze what is possible and what isnt (from IMHO).
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should only take like 10%.
Well, in D&D they completely immune to it, but anyway... It is possible i think. You should check the attacker, who attacks the skeletons and if he is archer, elf, lizard or anyone else with (cross)bow, then you must modify the damage skeleton receives.
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Second: Since they don't have a brain nor eyes, all mindspells and blind should not be affection the skeletons
Very simple - just set the corresponding ability flags.
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So when attacking creatures that are "smart" (i.e humans) they should make a more aggresive attack and thus make more damage.
The same as with the skeletons, but now you should check the defender type when zombie attacks and if he is some humanoid (pikeman, archer, swordsman and etc.), then modify zombie damage (only damage mod i suppose will work).
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This means that the opposition has a 50% chance to strike back before they get incorporeal again.
Very simple. Set 50% chance to completely block (dodge) the attack.
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So Vampires shouldn't be allowed to hit any castle unit (except griffons) since the other inhibitants logically wears a cross around the neck. They do believe in angels don't they??
I am not sure about this one... Dunno if it is possible to forbid creature to attack somebody... But anyway there is no logic in that vampire cannot attack angels or holy mans. By D&D they could attack them freely w/o fear of the Cross.
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So let them fly around outside the castles and have fun but no entering.
I think that is regarding only to small living rooms... 
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Third: They can lifedrain to many creatures. Ofcourse not the undead, but so many more.
Could by hard to implement in "clear" form... Again u should check the creature type of defender (golem, dragon - btw dragons arent immune to drain life, etc.), get the damage vampire inflicted and then take off this value from vampire stack to remove the vampires, that were restored by drain life.
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Fourth: Firespells make HUGE damage, but air and earth spells don't
Just edit Sptraits.txt and setup the damage values u needed.
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First: They always seems to attack first, and so the should, with the possibility to cast ANY(!) spell, but like enchanters, no matter if you have seven stacks you only get one spell.
Speaking about "attack first" this comes to initiative combat parameter (as in H4 or H5). Hmm... I think u can try at the start of combat scan through battlefield to find all lich's stacks and setup them the max speed values (100 for example). After lich get its turn you return speed value to its default value. This thing u must do every round. But there could be a problems with returning default value, beacuse u should take in account any speed modifiers (like slow, haste, etc.).
Speaking about casting all spells... U could setup that liches always after attack could cast single or mass version of any spell.
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Second: Liches always cast lots and lots of protectionspell around themselves. This means that Liches should start fighting surrounded by Stone skin, Magic mirror, Prot from "elements" and such. They will last for about 4-5 turns.
It is possible.
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Third: They are immune to all spells (except level 5 spells to which they have 80*% immunity (like dwarves)).
It is possible.
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Fourth: Of course this makes them really powerful so a maximum of ONE/week is enough. Probably higher cost as well.
It is possible.
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Dread knights: Nothing comes to mind right now.
Well, they have classic undead traits, auras of fear and despair, undead command ability, could instanly kill its target (do u remember Dragonlance Lord Soth ) and could do other things.
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Bone dragon: Best looking unit IMO, but it should not be able to fly.
Fly it is possible to forbid, but animation will be still the same until u replace it with another unit graphics.
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Ghost dragon: Incorporeal, but takes longer to change solid back and forth so the opposition have a 75% chance of hitting them in combat.
Just set the 25% chance to block (dodge).
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First: They should not automatically have "Necromancy" as a skill. They just have to find it like everybody else.
It is possible.
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Second: Since they are dead, healing spells should actually hurt them instead.
I am not sure if u can program that a cure spell could be cast on the enemy undead (as in KB).
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elimicmat
Hired Hero
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posted October 15, 2008 11:45 PM |
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Thats always the problem with new ideas: you come here and have a lot of idea (bad or good-does not matter) about a single faction. Necromancer faction is already the most gifted, and banned in almost all MP games.
As mentioned above I've done changes to ALL towns but that would take ages to write down. I'm not looking for someone to give me a giant script just because I have an idea, just wanted to know if it's possible.
About blind, undead units are immune to it, but I think it was a typo error, of course you knew it before asking major changes, isn't it?
Well to be honest I play with a version I've downloaded from Pirate bay, and the undead sure can be blinded. Don't know it he made some script changes (I'm not installing the files just unpacking). My bad if the indeed are immune to blinding
A necromancer without the skill would be just strange. Of course the skill will be offered on the first level up, so do you think it will change something?
Why should it come up on the first level up???
Skeletons with air shield 90% and immune to slow can lead to major pain in first development's phase for towns which rely mainly on shooters, as castle or rampart. As in most random maps level 1 are every where, it could greatly disturb and prohibit those towns achievements early in the game.
Well ain't that too bad. Strong points and weak points. Choose your faction and be happy with it....
On the other side it will GREATLY simplify any shooters annihilation with low levels units. Don't you thing that beating 20 archers on first day with 30-40 skeletons would make the necro unstoppable?
Only low level shooters affected to my knowledge are Archers, Elves and Lizardmen. Master gremlins throw huge balls, no problem. Gogs hurls fireballs, thats great. Elementals don't use "human" arrows so they have more chance of hitting. So infact 3 low level units and halfling (they suck anyway) and Sharpshooters (A bit overpowered anyway) are the units that are effected.
Unfortunately the "healing" spells have double purpose: they remove curses and heal also. So having the "cure" spell hurting necro units and not removing any curses will make them on the other side too easy to defeat. But of course you knew it already isnt' it?
This on the other hand, I must agree on. Didn't think of removing curses.
I do not see how this could work.
Well, I understand it's hard when you only see the changes in one faction. But as stated above, I'm not looking for a huge script, just want to know if its managable to change these things (and many more *hehe*)
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elimicmat
Hired Hero
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posted October 15, 2008 11:51 PM |
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Darkloke - You are my GOD for the rest of this week...
About skeleton taking damage - I agree and disagree. Sometimes they take damage and sometimes they don't.
Vampires - Well my livingroom in my castle and vice versa 
Could you explain the Lich speed thing again. Not following you there...
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Darkloke
Promising
Famous Hero
WoG Team artist
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posted October 16, 2008 07:05 AM |
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Edited by Darkloke at 07:11, 16 Oct 2008.
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Could you explain the Lich speed thing again. Not following you there...
Well, this is just a theory...  I mean that at the start or before combat u should try a trigger which allow to scan both sides and determine if any lich stacks there. Then u modify lich speed for all this stacks (both own and enemy) by setting some max speed value (as i said - 100 for example). In this case lich stacks will always act 1st. But - when lich stack will actually get its time to act (gets its turn) u must return its default speed value.
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About skeleton taking damage - I agree and disagree. Sometimes they take damage and sometimes they don't.
Well, i saw the MM manual - they were completely immune to piercing in 3rd edition, but in 3,5 they got damage reduction 5/bludgeoning.
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Vampires - Well my livingroom in my castle and vice versa
I am quoting the MM manual about vampires:
Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.
Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship.
They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.
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elimicmat
Hired Hero
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posted October 16, 2008 12:46 PM |
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Well, it seems like we could discuss vampires here all day long. Just one final remark according to not being able to attack Castle units (who logically wears some kind of cross or holy symbol). I still think that wampires can't attack these units, and I'm quoting you (or rather M&M):
A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter.
This says it all don't it??
But the castle thing. Well, there two sides of the story but I agree it more of a public place. You hire new reqruits and send old ones to war so the inhibitants change weekly, so I guess it's more like an hotel or something. Besides it don't look like you can make vampires unable to attack in sieges.
Anyway, vampires are gonna get a hell of a lot weaker... Too bad, kind of like vampires, but they have a lot of weaknesses... in "real" life...
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Darkloke
Promising
Famous Hero
WoG Team artist
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posted October 16, 2008 07:46 PM |
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Quote:
A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter.
Very simple - a creature HOLD a Cross, not simply wear. So u must command a creature to hold a cross the whole round and in its next turn decide should it hold again, or not. So it is a action and not a passive wearing.
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Darkloke
Promising
Famous Hero
WoG Team artist
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posted October 16, 2008 07:49 PM |
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Quote:
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A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter.
Very simple - a creature must HOLD a Cross, not simply wear. So u must command a creature to hold a cross the whole round and in its next turn decide should it hold again, or not. So it is an action and not a passive wearing.
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elimicmat
Hired Hero
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posted October 16, 2008 07:52 PM |
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OK, I surrender. You are totally right. Didn't read it right.
Anyway, I've just downloaded the latest monster manual (V.4.0) so this weekend its changing stats on the schedule.
You don't happen to know more good books with stats (Hp, speed, and such) except the monster manual. Don't seem to find all monsters for example Gogs....
Don't know if it's allowed to link to torrents but maybe a search-word will do...
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Darkloke
Promising
Famous Hero
WoG Team artist
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posted October 16, 2008 08:30 PM |
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You don't happen to know more good books with stats (Hp, speed, and such) except the monster manual. Don't seem to find all monsters for example Gogs....
There will no some monsters at D&D at all... Like gogs (though i suppose there are similar to magmins), behemoths, mind elementals, etc.
Among other sources:
MM 1-5 (with 3,5 edition)
Monsters of Faerun
Underdark
Fiend Folio
Elder Evils
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greek_god_su...
Famous Hero
Bringer Of Light
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posted December 01, 2008 07:31 AM |
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Vampire lord: They on the other hand a greatly overpowered. First of all, they aint to glad about crosses, and christians has a lot of those. So Vampires shouldn't be allowed to hit any castle unit (except griffons) since the other inhibitants logically wears a cross around the neck. They do believe in angels don't they??
They´re not christians in HoMM or D&D are they (even if there was an antichrist unit)? I can´t understand why they would be wearing a cross. Some other holy symbol belonging to homm world, then why not.
Some nice ideas you have there, but as said, pretty overpowered too, like skeletons 90% air shield (50% instead?) or ghost dragons 50% chance to block (maybe have it start from 0% and then have it increase with experience to something like 20% or 30%). You should keep the gameplay on mind too when converting creatures to D&D style.
Furthermore, I´d like to add turn undead ability to, let´s say, zealots & castle commander. In simpliest form, it could be just them casting destroy undead before attack. Back in the days when I tried to do this, it caused the game to crash when there was no undead on the field, and since I`m not that good with ERM...
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After all, marriage and murder are not too different - one ends your life and the other is a crime
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Hell_Wizard
Famous Hero
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posted December 01, 2008 02:43 PM |
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I suggest editing the *.txt files for MODs and using ERM for maps and WoGify scripts.
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