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Badasti
Hired Hero
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posted May 04, 2010 01:21 PM |
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Edited by Badasti at 13:34, 04 May 2010.
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Edit: Sorry I get it now. Took a while but my brain is asleep.
Good solution Ohforf =)
Edit #2: Conditions iz silly 
Btw Ohforf, you read noobcomic much? 
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 04, 2010 01:39 PM |
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Quote:
I already said: Imagine, they lie or tell truth because their inner nature says them to do so. 
I'm probably misunderstanding the term 'nature' then.
For I can't see where it fails with:
"If you were to answer the exact opposite of what you'd normally do, what city would you say this is."
Under the sole condition:
"The only population are liars and knights, liars always lie and knights always tell the truth."
Though I understand that it can be probably put much better.
Also, you can of course always add extra conditions that might/might not have been there, which makes the solution wrong, that's to say all logic can always be questioned by adding conditions otherwise assumed different since not being mentioned (and therefore thought irrelevant), though I think then it's a matter of wording the question more precise.
Like the very basic
Assumptions: If A, then B
Measure: Not B
Conclusion: Not A
You can question assumptions that is not mentioned that can determine if that logic holds true or not.
I honestly think there might exist an infinite set of such assumptions.
@Badasti
Quote:
Btw Ohforf, you read noobcomic much?
Well... I'm the noob. 
Currently level 6 and on my way to the biggest party on the server ever!
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Living time backwards
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Badasti
Hired Hero
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posted May 04, 2010 01:46 PM |
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Edited by Badasti at 13:50, 04 May 2010.
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Easy one for you guys, got it from one of my old emails...
What is the value of the second row?
*.....*.....*.....+ = 11
+.....>.....+.....$ = ?
$.....>.....$.....$ = 11
+.....+.....+.....* = 9
=.....=.....=.....=
8- - -21- -8---7
Table came out all messed up... Just fixed it up a bit :s
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 04, 2010 01:50 PM |
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Okay few question to you.
1)Where in the formulation of the problem I said they know that the only population are liars and knights? You know it, they don't.
2)If even they know, where in the formulation I said that everybody is intelligent enough to understand what other will do?
3)Who said you that particular knight knows he IS knight, or particular liar knows he IS liar? Thats why I said that perhaps something from inside tells them what to tell = inner nature = inner voice = flying spaghetti monster. I lead to the thing that they could lie, tell truth subconsciously.
Yeah, and the solution seems much easier than your one . You have atypical good logic  .
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Badasti
Hired Hero
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posted May 04, 2010 01:54 PM |
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Quote:
@Badasti
Quote:
Btw Ohforf, you read noobcomic much?
Well... I'm the noob.
Currently level 6 and on my way to the biggest party on the server ever!
You mean the character in the comic is based on you? 
You shouldn't mess with me atm. With how tired I am, I pretty much take everything people say literally. Unless I'm busy confusing myself. Not a good combination with work I'm afraid
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 04, 2010 02:16 PM |
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Quote:
Easy one for you guys, got it from one of my old emails...
What is the value of the second row?
*.....*.....*.....+ = 11
+.....>.....+.....$ = ?
$.....>.....$.....$ = 11
+.....+.....+.....* = 9
=.....=.....=.....=
8- - -21- -8---7
Table came out all messed up... Just fixed it up a bit :s
13
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 04, 2010 03:06 PM |
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@Ihor
The suggested solution: "If you were to answer the exact opposite of what you'd normally do, what city would you say this is."
(Maybe replace normally do, with feel like, if that suits condition 3 better).
Does [the solution], as I see, not go against any of your objections.
About objection 1), you're right you don't state anywhere that they know anything about eachother, without that stated people should be allowed to assume whatever they want untill the question is specified. You did specify it though, and I changed my proposed answer.
Now the proposed answer, as I wrote, I don't see is based under the assumption the people in town know anything about eachother, not even that they exists, it's all about what that one person, based on their own choice, would answer.
About objection 2)
Unless you specify the question to govern a limit of complexity in the question, all we can assume is they always lie and tell the truth, independent of complexity of the question.
Of course I'm not saying that they can tell about stuff they don't know, but the question is about something they do know.
About objection 3)
I am sorry I misunderstood you with the 'nature' part, though I think the bolded part I added above does solve that as well, since now it's taking the function [generating question] and asking for a reverse answer.
Quote:
Yeah, and the solution seems much easier than your one .
Well I'll look forward to see it.
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Living time backwards
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted May 04, 2010 07:27 PM |
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OhforfSake, I believe that's the idea of the question that we want to ask, in the sense that everybody answers the same thing in the same city, but we have different answers in different cities. This essentially means that we have to ask a 'yes/no' question that somehow involves the city (so that we can infer about the city eventually). However, the way you ask the question there is a small little problem.
These guys live in cities A and B (which are clearly not called 'city of knights' and 'city of liars'). Hence, you want to exploit the liars to answer the same thing as the knights, but by being liars they do not have to answer the same city name as the knights (and still lie). Essentially the problem is that the opposite of A does not have to be B; it might as well be C, D, E, or whatever, since there is not just two cities in the world; A and B. Now try to counter that problem too with your question. I think I have the right question, and the solution is based on whether I hear a 'yes' or a 'no'; i.e. I have a yes/no question.
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The empty set
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 04, 2010 07:52 PM |
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Okay, lets finally give a day for everybody who wants to think on this puzzle and afterwards I'll post my answer, if it would differ from presented ones.
BTW my question is also alternative(yes/no based).
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 04, 2010 08:07 PM |
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Well, it's true that if a lie can be several cities and not just one particular, it's one more, at least by me, unseen assumption.
Anyway, I guess changing from asking for a city, then asking specifically if this is the given city, (let's just assume liar city, aka. city B in a world of thousands of cities) then:
Q: "If you were to answer the exact opposite of what you'd normally do, would you say this is city B?"
Liar in Liar city would normally answer 'no' to this city being Liar city, so opposite would be a yes, however as he's a liar he'd still answer no.
Knight in Liar city would normally answer yes to this city being Liar city, as he's going to answer the opposite, the answer is a no.
Liar in Knight city would normally answer 'yes' to this being Liar city, so opposite would be a 'no', and as he's a Liar he'll answer 'yes'.
Knight in Knight city would normally answer 'no' to this being Liar city, so opposite would be a 'yes', and he's telling the truth about what he's going to do doing the opposite, so he says 'yes'.
Result: If no, then it is in fact city B [Liar city]. If yes and assuming you know you're either in City A (Knight city) or city B (Liar city) then you're in City A [Knight city].
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Living time backwards
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted May 04, 2010 08:14 PM |
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Yes, this is fine with me. However, it further assumes (I am getting on your nerves, right ?) that you know the names of the two cities. I think that all we really know is that there are two cities, and the guys who live in one city always say the truth, while the guys who live in the other city always lie. So, can we bypass the fact that we use the city names ? We only want to know where we are, and I think we can without even addressing the city names.
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The empty set
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 04, 2010 08:26 PM |
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Quote:
(I am getting on your nerves, right ?)
No! Of course not. If that happened, I'd simply not reply [not saying if I don't reply it means something gets me on the nerve].
However, this reminds me a lot about the discussion I had in the previous religion thread where I tried to show that every kind of logic is based upon assumptions and nothing is logical true, because it'd require infinite amount of statements [And therefore any statement seen to be logical true can be questioned through unseen assumptions].
So I'll stop adding extra on my solution to try to fit it to the next unknown assumption (I really think it's the responsibility of the question to provide all relevant assumptions and not of the ones trying to provide a solution). Anyway, when you guys come with your solutions, I'll critisize your assumption that the person asking knows how to communicate through language.
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Living time backwards
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted May 05, 2010 10:06 AM |
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Ok, I haven't answered anything so far, so here is my turn.
Possible resolving questions for the knights and liars problem:
(a) Do you live here, in this city ?
Yes => City of Knights,
No => City of Liars.
(b) Are you visiting this city where we are right now ?
Yes => City of Liars,
No => City of Knights.
(c) Do you live here in this city, or are you just visiting ?
I live here => City of Knights,
I am just visiting => City of Liars.
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The empty set
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 05, 2010 11:05 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 11:05, 05 May 2010.
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Quote:
(a) Do you live here, in this city ?
Yep, mine is the same. (b) and (c) are logically identical to (a).
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Badasti
Hired Hero
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posted May 05, 2010 12:24 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Easy one for you guys, got it from one of my old emails...
What is the value of the second row?
*.....*.....*.....+ = 11
+.....>.....+.....$ = ?
$.....>.....$.....$ = 11
+.....+.....+.....* = 9
=.....=.....=.....=
8- - -21- -8---7
Table came out all messed up... Just fixed it up a bit :s
13
A cookie for Angelito =)
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Badasti
Hired Hero
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posted May 05, 2010 12:35 PM |
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Nice solution to the Knights / Liars. Always fascinating when the answer turns out so simple.
I still like Ohforfs solution though it's so tactical. Reminds me of this one Samurai Jack episode...
Ps you didn't answer my question Ohforf!
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 05, 2010 12:40 PM |
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Nah it's reversed I'm based on the story, not the story on me.
About your task, solved by Angelito, I can see it becomes 13 if every ... means +, but what if it's just a random operation (though of course the same all the way through)?
[This reply will be deleted later when I hit the 20 post mark again]
Edit: And I blame you for assuming liars and knights know they live in a city, or something.
Edit#2
Quote:
If you do that, the same argument ruins your solution too.
I know! 
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Living time backwards
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted May 05, 2010 12:51 PM |
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Edited by dimis at 13:06, 05 May 2010.
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Quote:
A cookie for Angelito =)
Agreed and applied a Math +QP 
OhforfSake, you are now addressing the level of understanding (coherence in their state of mind ?) of the knights and liars. If you do that, the same argument ruins your solution too.
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The empty set
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted May 05, 2010 12:57 PM |
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Edited by dimis at 13:10, 05 May 2010.
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Q8. Worming out the truth
Ok, new problem in a similar motif; say in a random house in a random city of the two described above by ihor, the following takes place.
Q8. There are 12 persons in a room. Some of them always tell the truth, the others always lie. One of them said, "None of us is honest"; another said, "There is not more than one honest person here"; a third said, "There are not more than two honest persons here"; and so on, until the twelfth said, "There are not more than eleven honest persons here". How many honest persons are there in the room ?
(D. Fomin)
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The empty set
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 05, 2010 01:29 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 13:37, 05 May 2010.
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6
Explanation:
- First guy has to be a liar (if he would be a truth teller, he couldn't state that opinion he gave)
- If second guy would be a truth teller, all others following would be truth tellers too, because their statement would be correct. On the other hand, the statement of Guy no.2 then would be false. Conclusion: Guy no.2 ("No more than 1 of us is honest") is a liar too.
- Continue till guy no.7 ("No more than 6 of us are honest") if this statement is true, all others following would tell the truth too. After Guy no.7, there are 5 more guys following (8,9,10,11,12), which makes the statement of Guy no.7 correct.
Conclusion: All guys from no.7 till no.12 are telling the truth. makes 6 in summary.
Did that make any sense? 
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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