|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted December 03, 2009 10:16 PM |
|
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted December 04, 2009 10:32 AM |
|
Edited by Mytical at 10:35, 04 Dec 2009.
|
No. The perk was to be a 'raise dead' that affected enemy troops, but raised them as is except they would be considered a 'undead'. IE they cast it on Arcane Archers, the Arcane Archers would raise as 'undead' Arcane Archers. Not as say Skeletal Archers. As Azagal said..if you invoke Vampirism on a unit it is then considered Undead, so no new units would be needed for this. However, I have a very different perk in mind now.
Academy
Master of Illusion
Prereq - Basic artificer, Magic Mirror, Basic Enlightenment, Arcane Intuition, Basic Summoning, Basic Sorcery, Magic Insight (Yes, that is a lot, will explain each at end of this)
This perk allows the hero to cast an 'illusion' of any spell cast in battle by enemy casters or heroes. Even Mass Spells. Mass Spells cast this way do not benefit from any reduction in casting time however (unless the Academy hero has the perk that would allow it in the first place). As it is an illusion, enemy units get a chance to 'disbelieve' any spell affecting them. So before any other resistances, immunities, or such are factored, there is a 25% chance the spell will be resisted. Friendly troops can automatically choose to believe the spell, so if they are the targets it automatically succeeds (Friendly units do get the 25% chance to resist if they are caught in a spell from the Destruction school).
This spell can copy any other spell previously cast in that combat (a second school book pops up with the spells the enemy casters or heroes have casts) except shouts and empowered spells (it casts the non empowered version). The mana cost is twice what the spell would normally cost. (The caster casts 'Phantom Spell', immediately gets to go again then cast the spell they want to cast. Phantom spell does not cost any mana, but any spell cast directly after it cost double what it normally would..including mass spells).
So if a Academy hero who does not have Mass Slow casts Phantom Spell, then Mass Slow (after the enemy hero has cast it) all the enemy units get a 25% chance to resist..THEN their normal resistances and immunities are checked. So Academy could cast Mass Confusion (Provided the enemy hero had already cast it that combat) on Undead or Mechanical units, it just would fail (but still suck the mana). However, if they cast Mass Haste, it is automatic and no checks need be made.
Spells do not carry over after combat except those possible to be learned by Arcane Intuition.
((Now to explain why each prereq. Basic Artificer because you need Magic Mirror. Magic Mirror because you are 'mirroring' cast spells. Basic Enlightenment because you need Arcane Intuition. Arcane Intuition, because you need to 'learn' (even if temporarily) the spell. Basic Summoning, because it is an 'illusion', and of course so you can pick the perk. Basic Sorcery because you need Magic Insight. Magic Insight, so that the Hero will have 'Insight' on how magic works.))
____________
Message received.
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 04, 2009 01:58 PM |
|
|
Not for the competition :
Academy
Relocation of magic
Requires Summoning expert, master of conjuration, bannish
The hero learns Teleport and can cast it on arcane crystals, blades barriers and hives, regardless of who created them.
(maybe it's already possible, it would surprise me)
|
|
Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
|
|
posted December 04, 2009 03:48 PM |
|
|
Jolly it's not about discussing it with you. You say my perk doesn't work because of various reasons and I merely explain where you're wrong or where the game mechanics aren't on your side. It's not about your input it's about the wrong things you say. Coming from the osm I trust you can tell the difference.
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 04, 2009 05:54 PM |
|
|
Well, I just want to discuss things - it's true, I have a problem with your perk, but I'd have simply liked to discuss the perks as such - not critisize, I mean. Just talk about them.
I mean, I'm not judging the stuff anyway.
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted December 05, 2009 06:16 AM |
|
|
Feel free to make such a perk Jolly. I am happy with it the way it is. Since that allows the hero to cast any spell that has been cast during the entire fight by enemy casters or heroes.
____________
Message received.
|
|
VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
|
|
posted December 05, 2009 10:52 AM |
|
Edited by VokialBG at 11:12, 05 Dec 2009.
|
Sylvan
Requires: Expert summoning -> Master of Earthblood -> Wall of Fog
Advanced Attack -> Battle Frenzy -> Nature's Wrath
Kutsulan's Wrath
"And if you even once visit the villages around Illarolan you will hear about him, and you ask the people where you can find this great creature, they are going to advice you to stay away, because no one, even the bravest hero can not even kneel in front of him, in front of Kutsulan - lord and master of all wilds." - Georgi Tikh, legendary journeyman.
The myth - in the ancient bulgarian folklore Kutsulan is the greatest wolf, leader of them all, immortal master of all woods and wilds. Kutsulan is mostly alone in the forest but he can call the other wolfs, he is called Kutsulan, because he "kutsa"- limping with one of his legs. According to the legend when God created the wolfs they started to hunt in the wild, only one of them who was limping with one of his legs, was not able to eat, and he attacked human and killed him, from that day he he became strong, and he eat only human flesh. The last day of the Wolf days in Bulgaria is called Kutsulan and its dedicated to him.
The abillity - The Rager summon the immortal spirit of Kutsulan - the great wolf to process one of his units for one turn. This action makes the unit immortal and increase its stats by 100%, but also decrease the speed by 1. The unit also get some wolf abilliies - Leap, Bravery, It cannot be affected by Poison-, Blind- or Mind-related magic. After the turn is over the target get normal again the spirit jump to another random unit on the battle field. The first jump is to friendly creature always, all others include enemy units as well. Kutsulan can not process more than 3 creates from one of the sides on the battle field in a roll. Incorporeal creatures are immune to him and can not be processed. Kutsulan can not be killed, but cleaned ONLY with the Exorsism ability. If there is another wolf creature on the battlefield it will always join forces with Kutsulans side (if he change side, the wolfs do it as wel). Kutsulan's wolfs (if there are any) can not be controled by the player, also only the first processed unit can be controled, the others will always attack random enemy, humanoids first.
____________
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted December 06, 2009 11:11 AM |
|
|
Oh my god ... so many entries this round! Took me forever to read through this. My scores are below - some are a bit tentative as several of your entries were difficult to evaluate to say the least. Some very interesting concepts, but many of them would need gametesting to really evaluate, so I had to go with my gut feeling. I hope I didn't miss anybody this time around.
Adrius
Elemental Resonance
Pretty much in the same line as Elemental Balance, I really like this perk. It fits well with the style of the game and obviously also is inspired by Naadir's specialty. I'm not sure about the area spell thing - yes, I understand you don't want it to be completely overpowered, but on the other hand, it actually means that by using area spells you render this perk pretty much useless - and considering the fact that Elementals are generally pretty weak creatures, I'm not sure it's necessary - also remembering that these will count as summoned creatures and hence doesn't need to be killed to win the battle. While I understand the thought behind the prerequisites, once again I have to subtract on realism for making it a 3-skill perk (none of them being the racial skill) which is not an option in 3.1.
Creativity: 9
Realism: 8
EDIT > Reading through comments, I do agree that preventing Resurrection is actually a major effect of this perk that needs to be taken into consideration. I think it could work, but restriction will be that once you kill the elemental stack - or it moves - the body is still there beneath, so you can resurrect it. This will add a strategic element for both sides.
Mamgaeater
Fiery Release
Interesting perk. Kind of similar to the previous. I'm afraid it's too weak, however. How often do you actually use Consume Corpse? And then you will get what - in between 7 and 14 elemenetals, twice if you're on lava grounds? Meh. Would probably make sense to make some level adjustment like in above perk. On the positive side, the minimal requirements mean that once you have taken Consume Corpse, you'll have this as an option to sweaten the deal a bit - but how often do you have Summoning as a Demon Lord? So while the basic idea is good, it deffinitely needs some tweaking.
Creativity: 8
Realism: 5
Fauch
Perfect Clone
The name is a bid on the average side imo. The perk itself is actually ok - I'm not certain that I really think Phantom Image (as it is now!) really needs improving, but I buy the general idea that mages are masters of summoning and illusion. On a sidenote, I'm not sure ading Banish as a prerequisite makes sense to me - particularly because it will cut you off from both Elemental Balance and Fire Warriors, which will make it a no-go because these perks as I see it simply are better perks.
Creativity: 7
Realism: 6
Relocation Of Magic
That's a pretty funny perk. It's quite narrow, and I think it could work well in game as a small nuisance to enemies in the rare cases it applies, but again, Banish as requirement makes it a no-go, because you're cut off from both Elemental Balance and Fire Warriors, so while missing out on either could be ok, both is simply not attractive (plus, Banish sucks).
Mytical
Spirits Of The Forst
I don't care if this is not a contest entry, I'll rate it anyway because I love it. It's completely original, and it fits te faction well - maybe because I have the Sylvan/Summoner link from Heroes 4, but that doesn't bother me. I agree with others that making stats the same but changing abilities might not be the best idea - actually, I would rather say we should come up with something that reflects actual level 5 creatures - i.e. modest improvemnt in skills AND stats rather than major improvement in skills only. And wolves (fast and fragile) are a poor improvement on Earth Elementals (slow and sturdy), so that would need tweaking.
Creativity: 10
Realism: 7
Master Of Illusion
No, even if you try to explain why, I still don't accept that many skills as prefequistites for a normal perk. Maximum is racial skill + native skill + other skill with appropriate perks. That's the frame of the game - sorry to be a bore. The idea is actually pretty good, and I don't really think it's that powerful to merit all those conditions.
Creativity: 8
Realism: 6
Was there another perk I missed somewhere?
Jolly Joker
Elemental Resonance
Funny, down to the name, it's very close to Adrius' perk! And you're right, it's very similar to the Defence perk also. Nice detail with each Altar adding +1 elemental.
Hive Kinship
Pretty interesting idea. Makes Summoning a bit of a one trick horse for Sylvan, but then, who ever takes Summoning with Sylvan anyway, and it also fits well with Dirael. There are small details one could fix on - personally, I don't think the no-mana thing is a particular boost for Sylvan, as mana is not really an issue for this faction. I was considering adding some sort of multi-attack function i.e. the hive attacking naturally all favorite elements, but that's deffinitely playing with dangerous material, but then so is Imbued Rain of Arrow with Wasp Swarm, so maybe not too much of a difference? One could toy a bit with these things I think.
Creativity: 9
Realism: 8
Gift Of The Banshee
That's a really cool name. Pretty interesting concept this DE/Mana duality. I have trouble judging the impact of this, but I guess it could add some advanced strategic elements to Necropolis gameplay.
Blade Fury
I'm not too keen on this idea. It's too much of a one-trick horse, it seems a bit unfair also as it's something you can't really circumvent. While I like the idea of boosting Summoning Warlock a lot, this doesn't really fit my bill.
Arcane Trinity
Wow - that IS an amazing name. Ha ha it's a copy/paste job on the above skill down to the fact that you forgot to edit Warlock into Wizard in the description. Same reservations apply.
Azagal
When Asha Calls
Eh - Lord Of The Undead - isn't that Markal's specialty - or am I missing something? Was this supposed to be Herald Of Death instead? oh good, I stand corrected. I'm sceptic of this idea a bit like JJ, and find it difficult to really see all the implications it would have on game. As I see it, it opens a multitude of doors for potential abuse in one way or another, and I'm simply afraid it would turn out to be unfair to other factions. Blocking out enemy from raising his creatures is already a major boon, and adding them to your own faction also makes this double evil. So while I'll concede that the idea is original, I'm not convinced it'll be a good one to add to the game.
Creativity: 8
Realism: 4
VokialBG
Kotsulan's Wrath
Interesting skill, but the word "Immortal" always sends my alarm bells ringing, and only removable by Exorcism doesn't help things. I think the general idea is very creative, but I don't like the way you implement it - and I have difficulty evaluating the impact it would have because it seems extremely unpredictable in its very nature.
Creativity: 8
Realism: 4
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted December 06, 2009 11:13 AM |
|
|
Nope, there WAS another one (eerily like Azagals), but required a bit too many tweaks.
____________
Message received.
|
|
Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
|
|
posted December 06, 2009 01:20 PM |
|
Edited by Adrius at 13:29, 06 Dec 2009.
|
Quote:
but restriction will be that once you kill the elemental stack - or it moves - the body is still there beneath, so you can resurrect it. This will add a strategic element for both sides.
I totally agree. Making the body appear on the death of the Elemental would be the best and most logical solution.
3 skills not an option? I haven't played TotE in like, 2 years now haha, I remember nothing...
But yeah, if I'd add that remaining corpses idea I could totally remove one of the skill requirements, as well as the divided Elementals effect when using Area spells.
Nice criticism. I agree on all points.
____________
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted December 06, 2009 01:24 PM |
|
|
Quote:
3 skills not an option? I haven't played TotE in like, 2 years now haha, I remember nothing...
You're not the only one having trouble with this particular restriction. 
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 06, 2009 02:13 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Jolly Joker
Hive Kinship
Pretty interesting idea. Makes Summoning a bit of a one trick horse for Sylvan, but then, who ever takes Summoning with Sylvan anyway, and it also fits well with Dirael. There are small details one could fix on - personally, I don't think the no-mana thing is a particular boost for Sylvan, as mana is not really an issue for this faction. I was considering adding some sort of multi-attack function i.e. the hive attacking naturally all favorite elements, but that's deffinitely playing with dangerous material, but then so is Imbued Rain of Arrow with Wasp Swarm, so maybe not too much of a difference? One could toy a bit with these things I think.
I completely agree - just not as a special Sylvan Perk. Master of the Hive, making Wasp Swarm and Summon Hive Area Spells would be a natural as a COMMON spell. For Sylvans this should be a very difficult to get perk I'd say.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted December 06, 2009 02:47 PM |
|
|
Actually, I think there's two way to solve this problem.
First solution would be to place this perk outside Summoning Magic. This would be somewhat like Power Of Speed being an Attack perk and Power Of Endurance being a Defence perk. Thus, you could have a the perk lying in Attack (Battle Frenzy > Nature's Wrath > Hive Kinship) and have the perk being relatively weak - somewhat like you have it now, i.e. teach spell with perhaps advanced mastery, and let subsequent castings being free. This would actually be my favored approach, but obviously you'd no longer have created a Summoning perk!
Alternative solution would be to place the perk within Summoning as you did. This would merit a stronger perk, since Summoning in itself would grand you the mastery, and you might even learn the spell elsewhere. In this case, I think one could think in some sort of mass effect or preferably, link with Favored Enemy. My suggestion would look like this:
Hive Kinship
Requires: Summoning Magic (Master Of Conjuration, Master Of Life), Attack (Battle Frenzy, Nature's Wrath)
Teaches the Hero the spells Wasp Swarm and Summon Hive. When Hero casts the Summon Hive spell, the hive will have the following effect: The hive will always attack the nearest enemy creature, but if a favored enemy is present on the battlefield, the hive will also attack the nearest favored enemy. If the favored enemy IS the nearest enemy, these two effects does not stack, i.e. only this stack is targeted. If several favored enemies are present on the battlefield, a luck check will be made for each subsequent favored enemy also being attack, but when the first check fails, no further checks are calculated.
Example 1: Present on battlefield are four stacks: X (not on list), F1, F2 and F3 (on list), and H (hive). Setup:
H X F1 F2 F3 F4
Hive attacks X (nearest enemy) and also attacks F1 (nearest favored enemy). There's a Luck x 10 % chance that F2 is attacked also. If this check is positive, there's a Luck x 10 % chance that F3 is also attacked. If this check is also positive, there's a Luck x 10 % chance that F4 is attack.
With Luck = 5 this yields: X = 100 %, F1 = 100 %, F2 = 50 %, F3 = 25 %, F4 = 12,5 %.
With Luck = 3 this yields: X = 100 %, F1 = 100 %, F2 = 30 %, F3 = 9 %, F4 = 3 %.
Example 2: Present on battlefield are four stacks: X (not on list), F1, F2 and F3 (on list), and H (hive). Setup:
H F1 X F2 F3 F4
Notice that F1 is now closest unit.
Hive attacks F1 but does NOT attack X. There's a Luck x 10 % chance that F2 is attacked also, etc. etc.
Possible handles to turn: Don't teach Wasp Swarm but only Hive spell, cap number of possible attacks, make luck check already on first favored enemy.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 06, 2009 03:25 PM |
|
|
The problem is that Sylvans with their generally good initiative multiple Wasp Swarm hits are potentially decisive. I mean, if you HAVE Summoning with Sylvans, you can Imbue with Wasp Swarm and IF there are Favorite Enemies Rain of Arrows will have a pretty massive effect.
Letting the Hive do basically the same thing (and Luck has never been a problem for Sylvans) will take the favorite Enemy stacks virtually out of the battle. 
That's why I'm so cautious with Sylvans and Wasps. I don't think that it's a weak perk. If the Ranger Imbues or casts Light magic mass spells he'll use up mana very quickly. Banging in a Hive that will cast a free Wasp Swarm each round, can be pretty awkward for any opponent.
Generally Summoning is quite strong for factions that have no business getting it. My current game is the Warlord map, played as Haven; I have the Dungeon on my quarter of the map and a Witch Hut teaching Summoning, ahd Haven is pretty effective with Wasps and Phantoms and Armors. The interesting thing is that the third town I took was a Rampart, secondary Knight, also with Summoning, taking the troops, and, well, it plays quite nicely.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted December 06, 2009 03:33 PM |
|
|
True, combining with Rain Of Arrows it will be ...  ... so let's ban Imbue Wasp Swarm.
But of course, that's not how the game is, so yes, that would be a problem.
EDIT > Again, that only emphasizes why it would be better to have the perk NOT placed in Summoning magic. Thus: a) You would only have advanced mastery, making it less devastating, and b) you would not have access to regular Wasp Swarm (or only with no mastery) meaning that you wouldn't be able to abuse the combo.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted December 06, 2009 06:26 PM |
|
|
This was a peculiar and lengthy round, as expected 
***
Adrius:
Elemental Resonance:
The perquisites are too numerous: you've turned this almost into a second ultimate for Academy. Also, destroying corpses in this way is a severe tactical problem. All other abilities that can destroy corpses are single-target abilities. Being able to destroy corpses, potentially several at a time, with destructive spells is an unfairly hard counter to Raise Dead, Consume Artifact, and Resurrection. It's not necessarily imbalanced so much as it is lame. The ability itself looks like tons of fun, however I would have allowed each stack to raise as many elementals as the hero's level, rather than dividing multiple stacks so that it can only total to the hero's level. Even if you take out Enlightenment, it's still a big perk, and it deserves big benefits.
Creativity: 10
Realism: 5
= 15
Mamgaeater:
Fiery Release:
I think there are plenty of better names than 'Fiery Release' for this perk: the names suggests some kind of attack, not a conjuration. A fun sounding perk, and boasts far more potential than the currently embarrassingly worthless Soulfire perk. I have a problem with the scaling of the perk though. By making the # of elementals double the tier of the stack, this perk will becoming increasingly obsolete as the armies get larger. I would have used a formula based on the Demonlord's level or spellpower instead, and taken out (or at least decreased) the bonus from being on volcanic terrain. Albeit with my changes, you should probably up the prereqs a little bit so that you need Expert Summoning.
Creativity: 8
Realism: 5
=13
Fauch:
Perfect clone:
O la la. This perk looks like fun. Banish is an unfitting prerequisite though and it's not a very powerful perk so I would just ditch it. This adds a lot of appeal to cloning your Mages and Genies. Still, you can just as easily cast Phantom Forces on your Titans and use them to smack somebody up, but learning the spell helps sweeten deal.
Creativity: 8
Realism: 10
= 18
JollyJoker:
Hive Kinship:
The prerequisites and name are both awesome. I love the union with Attack, and Nature's Wrath is just perfect. Being able to micromanage the Hive to attack favored enemies is awkward for a nonracial perk though. I would have replaced that ability and allowed the Hive attack to potentially deal the bonus damage from Favored Enemy since this perk is weak ATM due to Rain of Arrows and Phoenix still being more appealing in the early part of the battle, though the total lack of mana has potential for generic creeping and long fights.
Creativity: 10
Realism: 8
=18
Mytical:
Master of Illusion:
Too many prerequisites: 3 skills is for ultimates. The ability is interesting but I don't see how it fits Summoning very well. If it were to go anywhere, it would be most appropriate with Sorcery beside Counterspell. This adds further versatility to the wizard and I can see it having its uses once you trim the prereqs down.
Creativity: 5
Realism: 7
= 12
VodkialBG:
Kutsulan's Wrath:
Quote:
The Ranger summon the immortal spirit of Kutsulan - the great wolf to process one of his units for one turn.
, Funniest typo in the thread.
---
This perk is colorful, but besides that it's almost impossible to judge the balance of this perk because it's so incredibly random and unpredictable. This would not go well in the game at all and battles would be a complete mess with a super boosted possessed unit on the field at all times. Also, you don't mention the ATB the hero spends to use this ability.
Creativity: 10
Realism: 1
= 11
Azagal:
When Asha Calls:
Awesome perk and awesome for Necromancer. The name and prereqs are perfectly fitting, and the ability itself seems perfectly balanced and innovative save for the fact that once you res an enemy stack, the enemy hero cannot res that stack as their own again. I suppose there is some thematic sense in that, but in terms of game mechanics, I think it's a bit harsh. Perhaps take away that bonus and then take away the dependency on Necromancy (though by the time you have this perk it's extremely likely you'll have Expert Necromancy anyway).
Creativity: 10
Realism: 9
= 19
***
FINAL SCORES:
Joker: 17.5
Adrius: 16
Azagal: 15.5
Fauch: 15.5
Mamgaeater: 13
Mytical: 13
VodkialBG: 11.5
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted December 06, 2009 06:32 PM |
|
|
Guess that just goes to prove the thing with raising opponents troops: Either you love it or hate it. XD
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted December 06, 2009 06:40 PM |
|
|
Can't say I agree, but I guess that just shows that my perks and skills are either too complicated or need too much explination. Meh.
____________
Message received.
|
|
blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted December 06, 2009 06:43 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Guess that just goes to prove the thing with raising opponents troops: Either you love it or hate it. XD
Other than Mytical and Azagal's perks we were still pretty well together. Summoning Magic was expected to produce by far the wackiest perks, so the judging is rough.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted December 06, 2009 06:51 PM |
|
|
I'm surprised on your rough turn on Myth's perk. Yes, it might need some tweaking, but the general idea of making a copy of a spell doesn't seem complete off on me. Maybe I didn't get the complete mechanism, but isn't it just that you cast this spell and then it mimics the effect of the desired spell? I don't understand the thing with double-casting you mention.
____________
What will happen now?
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
