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| Thread: Admiral Hat peculiarity |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted November 30, 2008 05:50 PM |
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Admiral Hat peculiarity
This is the admiral hat bug, i didn't notice it on HC, and it is really interesting, and known by very few.
ADMIRAL HAT BUG
L0 - hero's total land movement points. Depends on the speed of the slowest unit, Logistics (and specialty), land movement artifacts, and Stables bonus. Adjusts automatically during turn if mentioned factors change.
N0 - hero's total naval movement points. Calculated as 3000 + 750 * Navigation level, plus specialty and Lighthouses, if any. Adjusts automatically during turn if mentioned factors change.
L - current land movement points
N - current naval movement points
m - movement cost, 100 for straight and 141 for diagonal movement
When hero embarks on a boat his land movement points are translated into naval movement points as such:
N = (L - m) * N0/L0
When hero disembarks a boat his naval movement points are translated into land movement points as such:
L = (N - m) * L0/N0
Since N, L and m cannot be influenced, one should notice that the only important factors are L0 and N0.
When hero embarks on a boat he will want his N0 to be as high as possible, and L0 as low as possible. Therefore, he should equip the slowest unit and unequip movement artifacts.
The opposite is when hero disembarks a boat: he will want his L0 to be as high as possible, and N0 as low as possible.
Example: a hero started the turn with Archangel only (so L0 = 3500). He has Expert Logistics, Expert Navigation, Boots of Speed, Equistrain Gloves, Admiral's Hat, Archangel and a Zombie in army, 2000 land movement points left. He embarks a boat in two ways (straight embarking both):
1) land movement artifacts equipped, only Archangel in army. His naval movement points will be:
N = (2000 - 100) * 5250/3500 = 2850
2) artifacts unequipped, only Zombie in army:
N = (2000 - 100) * 5250/1950 = 5115
As you can see, it is a huge difference. But it is not over - now the hero from case 2) disembarks the boat, but prior equips his arts, and returns the Archangel. His land movement points become:
L = (5115 - 100) * 3500/5250 = 3343
By embarking and disembarking a boat under right conditions a hero has gained 3343 - 2000 = 1343 extra movement points. This can be even more radical for Navigation and Logistics specialists.
Peculiarity: land map objects that increase movement will increase L, but they will also, undesirably, increase L0: this can be prevented by opening hero screen after visit, for then the recalculation is made, and L0 is not affected, therefore allowing higher naval movement when embarking the boat.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 30, 2008 06:04 PM |
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I didn't know that you could generate movement points like that.
There's also something about hiring a hero that fled at sea with a lot of naval movement points; no recalculation of movement points or something like that iirc.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted November 30, 2008 10:14 PM |
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Its connected with the fact the the hero that flees from battle can be rehired in the Tavern with the same movement as when fled. Navigation movement can be much higher then land movement, e.g. exp Navigation alone gives 3750 movement points, and that suddenly transfers to land movement if hero flees at sea. A high level Navigation specialist with Admiral's Hat and/or Lighthouse(s) brings this to the extreme.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted December 01, 2008 02:08 PM |
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I forgot the mention concerning the movement increase, what you probably noticed, there is no limit to it: you can (dis)embark as many times you want. Therefore it is a huge bug 
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Anyone (wants to) know(s) how to move a hero and dig for a Grail with him in the same day?
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p.s. New version of Tribute to Strategists manual but complete. All of this is already included of course. I have just a few mysteries that I either don't know or can't remember, all else concerning game mechanics I found buried in my comp from (ancient) ToH times. Things I can't recall are:
-exact plague probability
-exact chances for double growth and +5 growth for every creature, and in total per week. Can every creature experience both growth types?
-Diplomacy:
Is it true that hero's army strength must exceed 50% of opponent for joins to become possible (i believe so).
How does the increase of army strength above 50% affect join chances, for it is a fact that if you have 50% army strength compared to opponent you will have less join probability then when you have 100%?
How exactly is army strength calculated? I am rather certain it is composed of AI values and A/D, but how does A/D affect army strength?
If no one knows, maybe some genius testers found here are willing to help to resolve these stuff? Too much for one man
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted December 10, 2008 08:54 AM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 08:58, 10 Dec 2008.
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Just try to use Diplomacy Oracle:
LM Oracle 3.72
No more mysteries about Diplomacy!
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted December 10, 2008 01:30 PM |
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Ok, I want to know how Diplomacy works exactly
And, how do you make a program such as LM Oracle? Is it possible to do without the knowledge of the source code, or do you have the source code?
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted December 10, 2008 02:57 PM |
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Quote:
Can every creature experience both growth types?
Not to my knowledge.
- Double production only can happen for level 1-4 creatures, and it only happens day 1 of new month. And additonal effect: Neutral Stacks of this specific creature are placed all over the map, and theyx could join a hero even without diplomacy
- +5 growth can happen on day 1 of any week. Not sure for which creatures this can happen, but I recall at least for any kind of level 7 unit. But in opposit to double growth, there won't appear tons of neutral stacks on the map.
Quote:
-Diplomacy:
Is it true that hero's army strength must exceed 50% of opponent for joins to become possible (i believe so).
Yes to my knowledge. A circumstance which also raises your chances for joining is the fact you have the same kind of troops already in your hero's army. And if those troops exceed a specific percentage of your whole army value (on that hero), you raise the chances even more.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted December 10, 2008 03:03 PM |
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These were my tests:
WEEK/MONTH EVENTS (FURTHER TESTING NEEDED)
In 108 weeks I got these outcomes:
Double growth: Gremlin (3), Harpy, Lizard (4), Hobgoblin (3), Troglodyte (3), Pegasus (2), Wolf rider (2), Centaur, Serpent fly, Magog, Griffin.
+5 growth: Vampire, Minotaur, Magma, Archmage, Basilisk, Master Genie, Cyclops, Pit Lord, Wolf Rider, Ice Elemental, Royal Griffin, Angel, Wood Elf, Gnoll Marauder, Gog, Dendroid Guard, Gold Dragon, Dread Knight.
It seems there can never be a week of neutral creatures. Plague occurred only once in 27 months. 38 weeks were week of creature, 35% of total.
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So I guess it is correct that double growth occurs only for 1-4 levels, but a few more tests wouldn't be for nothing. I haven't checked does it happen only on month starts.
+5 growth is funny, for it seems it can appear for any creature except neutrals of course.
As for Diplo that I know and is correct, I wrote it in the manual.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted December 11, 2008 10:04 AM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 10:45, 11 Dec 2008.
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Diplomacy internals.
1) Hero_Power = sqrt ((1 + 0.05 * Attack) * (1 + 0.05 * Defense));
2) Total_Army_Power = Hero_Power * Army_Power;
3) k = Total_Army_Power/Neutrals_Power;
4) Ch =
11 if k >= 7;
floor(2*(k-1)) if 1 <= k < 7;
-1 if 0.5 <= k < 1;
-2 if 0.333 <= k < 0.5;
-3 if k < 0.333
For example, a hero with Attack = 10 and Defense = 10 has 10 royal griffins in his army (Royal_Griffin_AI_Value = 448). Then
Army_Power = 10 * 448 = 4480;
Hero_Power = sqrt (1.5 * 1.5) = 1.5;
Total_Army_Power = 1.5 * 4480 = 6720.
Let the hero attack a group of 50 centaurs (Centaur_AI_Value = 100, Neutrals_Power = 50 * 100 = 5000)
Then k = 6720/5000 = 1.344, Ch = 0, Ch is for Charisma
5) Sympathy =
0 if there are no creatures of the same kind as neutrals in hero's army;
1 if there are at least one creature of the same kind as neutrals in hero's army;
2 if total number of creatures of the same kind as neutrals in hero's army strictly bigger than quantity of all other beings in the army.
Note: "the same kind" means upgraded creatures as well. But there is no sympathy bonus at all for joining magma, ice and energy elementals from having earth, water and fire ones in your army!
6) X - level of aggression of neutral monsters (for example, X = -4 for complaint monsters, X = 10 for savage ones). This value is invisible for players but you can easily get it using LM Oracle 3.72
7) if Ch >= X then monsters join
for free if Sympathy + Diplomacy_Level + 1 >= X;
for gold if Sympathy + 2 * Diplomacy_Level + 1 >= X.
So diplomasy is a REALLY powerful skill!
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted December 11, 2008 02:49 PM |
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I still don't get it all. I had a lot of tests made some time ago that I saved (I won so many Diplo fights on this ). For example, one of those tests was (sample 500) to determine chances of 10 hostile AAs joining a level 1 Expert Diplomacy hero with 0 A/D having an army of 10 AAs. The results were:
Free join / Money join / Flee / Fight
33,2% / 0,0% / 0,0% / 66,8%
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Now I follow your rules:
Hero strength = 1
AA AI value = 8776
Army strength = 87760
k = 1
Ch = 0
Sympathy = 2
X = 7 (as far as I can tell from LM Oracle, Compliant is -4, Friendly 6, Aggressive 4, Hostile 7, Savage 10. But this makes no sense for friendly and aggressive, so I presume the numbers are switched?)
Now you say that monsters will join if Ch >= X, but here it is not the case, for Ch = 0, and X = 7.
You also say that monsters will join for free if
Sympathy + Diplomacy_Level + 1 >= X
but here it is 2 + 3 + 1 >= 7, 6 >= 7?
so free join shouldn't be possible at all, yet it is.
And finally, monsters will join for money if
Sympathy + 2 * Diplomacy level + 1 >= X
so it would be 2 + 2 * 3 + 1 >= 7, 9 >= 7
but there wasn't a single money join at all.
Could you please clarify a bit? I do believe you figured it out, I just think it needs more explanation.
Also, what happens when monsters can join both for free and money, what are the odds of specific outcomes? By using this method it would seem possible to predict with 100% certainty that a join will happen, but this is never the case. I had a few more tests on this matter as well, I can write them down too if needed.
Also, you said that Ch can go up to 11, and that Savage X = 10, yet savage creatures may never join under any circumstances, afaik.
And how did you figure this all out?
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted December 11, 2008 03:49 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 16:04, 11 Dec 2008.
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Quote:
X = 7 (as far as I can tell from LM Oracle, Compliant is -4, Friendly 6, Aggressive 4, Hostile 7, Savage 10. But this makes no sense for friendly and aggressive, so I presume the numbers are switched?)
Only compliant and savage monsters have constant X-value (-4 and 10 accordingly). All the other types get a pseudo-random X-value (from 1 to 9) when you generate new game. You can see this value when using LM Oracle.
Quote:
Also, what happens when monsters can join both for free and money, what are the odds of specific outcomes?
The second condition is checked only if the first one is false.
So,
1) If your hero doesn't have the Diplomacy skill, he will never join monsters for gold;
2) Your hero will never join monsters with X>6 for free (2 + 3 + 1 = 6).
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted December 11, 2008 03:58 PM |
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Is it the same probability to get X from 1 to 9 for both Friendly, Aggressive and Hostile creatures? If not, how is it calculated? But even if that hostile AA gets X=1, Ch is still 0. How is join possible then?
Please just explain me how did I get those test results I mentioned. Then it will be much clearer I believe.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted December 11, 2008 04:14 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 16:19, 11 Dec 2008.
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Quote:
Free join / Money join / Flee / Fight
33,2% / 0,0% / 0,0% / 66,8%
In 33.2% cases hostile AA's have 1 <= X <= 6;
In 66.8% cases hostile AA's have 6 < X <= 9.
Money join - 0.0% ???
Maybe you didn't have enough money?
P. S. Perhaps hostile AA's didn't join for gold as they cost gems also? I'll find out it.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted December 11, 2008 04:18 PM |
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Quote:
The second condition is checked only if the first one is false.
So,
1) If your hero doesn't have the Diplomacy skill, he will never join monsters for gold;
2) Your hero will never join monsters with X>6 for free (2 + 3 + 1 = 6).
Ok, applying this to my example produces:
Ch=0
X=1 to 9
Therefore Ch is always < X, so condition is false.
Now, join for money will happen if
Sympathy + 2 * Diplomacy level + 1 >= X
Therefore 9 >= X
And free join will happen if
Sympathy + Diplomacy level + 1 >= X
Therefore 6 >= X
But these two conditions overlap:
Free join if X=1,2,3,4,5,6
Money join if X=1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
Yet, I have never seen a money join. My hero does have Expert Diplomacy.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted December 11, 2008 04:22 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Free join / Money join / Flee / Fight
33,2% / 0,0% / 0,0% / 66,8%
In 33.2% cases hostile AA's have 1 <= X <= 6;
In 66.8% cases hostile AA's have 6 < X <= 9.
Money join - 0.0% ???
Maybe you didn't have enough money?
P. S. Perhaps hostile AA's didn't join for gold as they cost gems also? I'll find out it.
Yes, that is ok for free join.
I certainly had enough money, although it doesn't matter, by using Visions you will still get the info no matter do you have sufficient gold. I don't think gems have something to do with it.
Here are a few other of my tests:
1.Hero lvl 99 with 99 A/D has 9999 AAs:
FREE MONEY FLEE FIGHT
42,6% 44,2% 13,2% 0,0%
2. Hero lvl 1 with 0 A/D has 9999 AAs:
FREE MONEY FLEE FIGHT
43,4% 40,0% 16,6% 0,0%
If you have Skype or Msn or alike, would be great
Don't forget to answer how the random X is generated for specific moods
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted December 11, 2008 04:26 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 16:34, 11 Dec 2008.
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Thanks! I will test this situation with my program.
P.S. I suppose you made tests not on Easy? Because on Easy heroes have hidden Diplomacy level.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted December 11, 2008 04:29 PM |
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You're welcome . Let me know
I can tell you this: if you give A/D to hero then on one point you will start to see money join. I don't know which point though.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted December 11, 2008 04:37 PM |
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Quote:
Thanks! I will test this situation with my program.
P.S. I suppose you made tests not on Easy? Because on Easy heroes have hidden Diplomacy level.
It was either on Normal or Hard, I think Hard. Hidden Diplomacy level? When you figure it all out, post everything from the start Thanks
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted December 11, 2008 04:42 PM |
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I will
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted December 11, 2008 05:41 PM |
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Now I know how "random" numbers are created for different moods .
I need to know what is N in LM Oracle, and, Ch is expressed wrongly I think. I attacked 9999 AAs with 1 AA, and Ch was 2, should be -3.
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