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| Thread: Put and end to racism |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV |
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted December 03, 2008 04:18 PM |
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Well no, I was talking about morale penalties
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Guarder
Supreme Hero
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posted December 03, 2008 04:20 PM |
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oh, i thought so becouse of the first sentence in the masterpost about you couldn't mix factions so freely
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Zozma
Hired Hero
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posted December 06, 2008 03:02 PM |
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I don't think realism is really a relevant argument in Heroes. In a fantasy game just about anything goes from angels fighting alongside devils to orcs being chummy with goblins. This creative freedom is magnified by the fact that Heroes has always had custom games that go outside of the game's canon. Read some of the custom game descriptions and try to tell me that they could all take place in the same world the campaign does  .
That being said, I think there should be a balance. Having troops that are completely useless due to bad morale hurts customization, but having a free mix of armies takes away the unique feel each faction has. Therefore, I suggest that units should be interchangeable, but not abilities. If you're playing Inferno, you won't have access to training or runic abilities even if you employ Haven and Dwarven heroes.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted December 07, 2008 02:49 PM |
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I somewhat agree with the main post. Some racial skills in my opinion are simply TOO faction / unit specific. In some cases it might be justified.
Of course demons and humans alongside don't make a lot of sense - in those cases you can apply a heavy moral penalty. But for example, humans and wizards, those two would much more easily work alongside one another. It makes no sense if they received the same kind of heavy moral penalty or restrictions induced by their respective faction racial skills.
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rmcmurtry
Hired Hero
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posted December 23, 2008 08:45 PM |
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I think that there should be an hero ability that allows it. Maybe diplomacy add racism as an addition to it.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 23, 2008 10:07 PM |
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Quote:
Of course demons and humans alongside don't make a lot of sense
Castle worked alongside Necro in one H3 campaign, and the main idea behind SoD was a similar situation (Crag Hack and Yog team up with Gelu and Gem).
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SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
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posted January 01, 2009 01:17 AM |
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This does make sense, human pikeman fighting alongside a reanimated human corpse is just odd.
Ideally, if we can get 9 towns in HoMM VI the 3 Good, 3 Neutral and 3 Evil can mix freely but outside of that you get big morale penalties.
Also, I never saw anything wrong with the amalgams of the real/original Might and Magic universe. Talking about realism when you have giant tentacle eyeballs shooting laser beams is a bit silly. If someone can unite as many ethnic groups as there are in many countries today successfully (and yes I am aware that it is often not successful), why not Beholders and Harpies?
Plus, I liked the recessed-into-barbarism background of the old HoMM. It made for a far more original universe, IMO, with demons being aliens and god only knows what angels were, I guess. HoMM 5's Warcraftian world doesn't appeal as much to me.
And there certainly are space aliens in Warcraft, and Warhammer is 25 years old, not exactly "new."
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They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!
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halo1cej
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 02, 2009 10:30 PM |
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In heroes 3 I loved mixing the Elven town and the human towns, i had the best mixture you can have. Arch Angles, Grand Elfs, Crusaders, Marksmen, Silver Pegusis, Zealots, and Gold Dragons. I pretty much destroyed everyone with that army, but to get on topic i like the heroes 5 idea better. Having skeletons fighting along side humans isnt right just like having the Sylvan Elves and Dark Elves mixing units would be a huge cultural failure. Mixing armies isnt a bad thing but nationalism is better
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 03, 2009 08:18 PM |
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First of all, it has nothing to do with racism. If anything has to do with racism is the fact that some races (like orcs or demons) are seen as inherently evil and worth of total annihilation. Which is not HOMM problem but a problem with fantasy in general.
Problem here is, "racism" is a term that originated because people of a certain specie (humans) discriminated their own kin on the basis of some minor details like skin color, and culture. "Racism" would need a complete re-thinking if humans came into contact with other intelligent races such as dwarves or elves, and moreso is such an intelligent race would put itself in competion with humanity for survival.
For instance, terrans' need to kill all the zergs is not a racist need, like zergs' need to predate on humans isn't, too.
Etc. etc., point is racism in Fantasy is always a complex issue, and not the core of the HOMM issues with morale.
Second point - sorry, but why is no one mentioning gameplay, exactly?
Factions are meant to have strenght and weaknesses. In larger maps, the ability of combining two armies to get the best aspect of both (or other oddities like an army of the "sturdiest" defenders, an army of the best shooters, etc.) or overcome the weaknesses of one is of course to be balanced with some drawback. Kinda same thing could be said of hero-army relationship.
Now you could say that having to conquer another town is enough of a drawback and getting hybrid armies isn't easy... but that's not really a "drawback" since you MUST, for the course of the game, conquer some numbers of different towns.
Now, given that you will conquer some towns anyway, the fact that when you can't then just mix armies if not by paying a price in morale balances the advantage you just got, like the inability to build more capitals does.
Otherwise, getting more and more towns would snowball into a bigger and bigger advantage, and also an unrealistic one - larger kingdoms are harder to manage economically and culturally in the game like they are in reality.
In short, I could see and approve a softening of the morale incompatibilities, but they are a necessary aspect of the game and actually a brilliant one.
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Willow
Adventuring Hero
Tree of Knowledge
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posted January 14, 2009 10:04 PM |
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I think it's good for strategy that there are morale penalties when factions intermix or when a "good" hero has "evil" creatures in his army.
I think a way to make things more interesting is to introduce a skill/perk that would allow a hero of one faction to more easily incorporate creatures from another faction.
Example 1:
Let's say Knight wants to have troops from Necropolis in his/her army. A new Knight-specific perk (let's name it "Dark Knight") could be introduced to the Leadership skill that would allow a Knight to have Undead creatures in his/her army without the morale penalty that Undead creatures usually give to Living creatures.
Example 2:
If a Wizard would want to have troops from Inferno in his/her army, the perk could be "Demonologist" which reduces the morale penalty when an army is mixed with Demonic troops. This perk could even go farther and allow Creature Artifacts to be used on Demonic troops, but then negate their ability to gate.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted January 16, 2009 05:38 PM |
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Hmm, I guess this could be a good idea, but maybe it should not be a perk, but a normal primary skill? This way it would not take awaay a perk from each racial...
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Willow
Adventuring Hero
Tree of Knowledge
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posted January 17, 2009 05:16 PM |
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I think I used the wrong word... I didn't mean perk, I mean "sub-skills" (like Diplomacy, Recruitment, Empathy, etc. for Leadership). I get confused with the terms sometimes.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted January 17, 2009 08:14 PM |
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Quote:
This does make sense, human pikeman fighting alongside a reanimated human corpse is just odd.
Both of them are mindlessy following the stratergist leader and the heroes, so who the flux cares?
Basicaly mixing should give the regular denial of the +1 bonus, undeads like the Ashan necros is not the same as the ones in Heroes. The ones in Heroes where mindless zombies following their raving powerhungry leaders while in Ashan they usually serve the fanatical dragon crusadors. As the current lore is, the -1 moral addon does not make sense at all. Mixing should be more than possible.
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