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| Thread: Utopia and the End of History |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Doomforge
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posted February 24, 2009 04:13 PM |
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Could be worse.
My utopia always gives me Sea Captain's Hat on non-water map. 
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TheDeath
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posted February 24, 2009 07:57 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 20:00, 24 Feb 2009.
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@JJ: Uhm, yes you do keep things. In fact it's one of the requirements for an Utopia -- if we can do that, we can take on a more responsible role. (of course it's just idealism anyway, just like an Utopia is, but it's what this thread is about).
If you prefer something more technical than an ideology like 'peace', take historical artifacts or findings. If we find all there is to it, what do you think striving to keep those museums (and thus artifacts) up? Or historical sites, etc...
That's exactly what we must choose as a goal (i.e "keeping" stuff) if we are to make it to an Utopia. Unfortunately we don't, but that's not even the only requirement anyway and we fail at like 100 of them. (include conflicts)
If anything, having a goal which includes labor means we won't have an Utopia. Ever. (notice: some people enjoy thinking or revising ideas or be creative, etc...). And yeah in my opinion, Utopia is aproximately equal to Paradise 
@mvass: people can like their jobs and treat them as hobbies, if there's no income (as per capitalism). They don't like the money if they "like" their job, they would do it for the sake of it (of course they think practically, so as to not starve in this world, I don't blame them).
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JollyJoker
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posted February 24, 2009 10:31 PM |
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Quote:
@JJ: Uhm, yes you do keep things. In fact it's one of the requirements for an Utopia --
In fact? IN FACT?
Who cares for AN utopia? Not me, in any case. I'm not interested in AN utopia.
I think, I did say that already a couple of times, didn't I?
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mvassilev
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posted February 24, 2009 10:41 PM |
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Doomforge:
Well, on average he spends about twelve hours a day working at his office, and a bit more at home.
TheDeath:
But then many people would just not work.
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TheDeath
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posted February 24, 2009 11:01 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 23:02, 24 Feb 2009.
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Quote:
In fact? IN FACT?
Who cares for AN utopia? Not me, in any case. I'm not interested in AN utopia.
I think, I did say that already a couple of times, didn't I?
What are you doing in this thread then? 
@mvass: you said he likes his job, or did I misunderstand something?
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mvassilev
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posted February 24, 2009 11:05 PM |
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I think you're interested in A utopia, not AN utopia. 
And yeah, he really likes his job. I was just responding to Doomforge's question about job and career. If you work that much, then would that be being obsessed?
And, despite him liking his job, I don't think he'd do it if he wasn't paid.
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TheDeath
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posted February 24, 2009 11:07 PM |
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Of course he wouldn't because he would starve. Think non-capitalistic though.
By the way, what the hell is with AN or A? I used an because Utopia starts with a vowel, don't tell me we get into childish debates or was that a joke?
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mvassilev
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posted February 24, 2009 11:11 PM |
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Nope, even if he wouldn't starve, he still wouldn't do it.
And here's a question: if a lot of people are doing unproductive stuff - or simply not working - then who does all the work?
And it's a utopia, just like it's a university. Because it's not pronounced "ootoupia" but "yootoupia". It doesn't matter what letter it starts with - it matters what vowel sound it stars with. That's why it's a utopia and an hour.
English lesson of the day. 
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JollyJoker
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posted February 25, 2009 08:11 AM |
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What are you doing in this thread then?
I give that question back, and if you read the initial post again you may see the reason. Be that as it may, the purpose of this thread is certainly not that you tell everyone what is needed for utopia and what not or that we justify ours. Add to that the fact, that with regards to the sex and drugs thread I wouldn't touch your personal utopia with a 10-feet-pole, and a discussion seems pretty pointless.
That said, may utopia (which would be the unreachable goal(s) for the utopia people were already in when striving for it) would involve, that everyone could live their own utopia, so that neither compromise nor agreements nor discussion about it with others was necessary...
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del_diablo
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posted February 25, 2009 11:18 AM |
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And here's a question: if a lot of people are doing unproductive stuff - or simply not working - then who does all the work?
Quite simply a shock coming on and hitting on. If a A don't work B or C does the work.
Besides, if you like your job you have done the right choice in selecting a proffesion as far as i have heard.
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Doomforge
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posted February 25, 2009 12:10 PM |
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There are a lot of jobs that can be automatized ; Also, there are many unnecessary jobs.
For example, most factories can be automatized to a point that there is only a few folks required to maintain and supervise it.
I am not saying work shouldn't be there, but by reducing the amount of necessary work, we can reduce the number of hours spent in job. The unproductive hours.
Some jobs are also unnecessary. Managers and so on. If you ask a manager what does he in fact do, he will not tell you straight, because in fact, he does nothing. "supervises people" my @ss. Oh, and he's doing charts in excel. How cool.
Mvass, I hope you talk your father out of this madness. 12 hours per day is beyond unhealthy. Whether he likes his job or not, he is prone to constant stress, tiredness and - assuming he works with his mind, not his body - lack of movement. You don't want to see him have a heart attack in a few years? People think they are sooo tough and healthy.. until they collapse for the first time ;/
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mvassilev
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posted February 25, 2009 02:35 PM |
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del_diablo:
Why would B or C do the work?
Doomforge:
Quote:
Some jobs are also unnecessary. Managers and so on.
Okay, how about we go to the average factory and fire everyone except the janitors and the people who work on the assembly line. That factory would fail within a year.
And don't worry about my dad. When he's not working, he's exercising vigorously. He exercises at least an hour a day.
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DeadMan
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posted February 25, 2009 03:52 PM |
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JollyJoker:
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For the ants, maybe. I dount it for humans, though.
Perhaps there is an opportunity for humans to learn from nature.
Mvass:
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Why would B or C do the work?
Because, in the utopia, they would feel that they have a duty to do so - for the greater good.
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del_diablo
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posted February 25, 2009 04:24 PM |
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Quote:
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Some jobs are also unnecessary. Managers and so on.
Okay, how about we go to the average factory and fire everyone except the janitors and the people who work on the assembly line. That factory would fail within a year.
Actually it would not, manager is not a own position. Its just we are beliving it to be. The manager needs to be somebody of the crowd or more than 1 person or simply a group of the employs who got an idea how everything can go to hell.
Managers are not needed, management is not linked to it.
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Doomforge
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posted February 25, 2009 06:36 PM |
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Okay, how about we go to the average factory and fire everyone except the janitors and the people who work on the assembly line. That factory would fail within a year.
It's not what I meant. but a job based on making charts in excel is redundant.
Happy to hear your dad is fine.
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TheDeath
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posted February 25, 2009 06:47 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 19:15, 25 Feb 2009.
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Add to that the fact, that with regards to the sex and drugs thread I wouldn't touch your personal utopia with a 10-feet-pole, and a discussion seems pretty pointless.
Yeah, and it's not like terrorists will like it either. Guess it just doesn't fit with some people -- although once you're in, you'll never want out (by your own choice). Exception would only be those 'infected' from outside sources (desire for war/conflict is one example).
And by the way, you are fatally wrong. It is a lot easier to achieve Utopia with machines than with humans. And guess why they don't need sex or drugs which cause all sorts of social conflicts (and pointless waste but that's another thing ).
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That said, may utopia (which would be the unreachable goal(s) for the utopia people were already in when striving for it) would involve, that everyone could live their own utopia, so that neither compromise nor agreements nor discussion about it with others was necessary...
you know that's exactly what we have now, and it obviously doesn't work, or do you call yourself our world an Utopia?
Sure you can go on about saying "but we're harming each other" -- then again, we all affect the entire things around us with our daily activities. Not just pollution, but even using up energy, for example.
It is impossible to have an Utopia when everyone pursues his own, because Hitler Ted Bundy might have been pursuing his own Utopia too. (there, I put Ted Bundy instead so you won't make a fuss of 'nazis' )
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Cepheus
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posted February 25, 2009 07:51 PM |
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Who cares for AN utopia?
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call yourself our world an Utopia?
Sorry to jump into this thread with semantics, but I always understood it was a utopia, not an utopia
Correct me if I'm wrong. What can I say, I have an interest in this stuff Bye.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 25, 2009 08:33 PM |
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And by the way, you are fatally wrong. It is a lot easier to achieve Utopia with machines than with humans.
Angelito, is it okay when I call that NONSENSE?
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my utopia... would involve, that everyone could live their own utopia
you know that's exactly what we have now
And what about that, Angelito? No nonsense?
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It is impossible to have an Utopia when everyone pursues his own, because Hitler Ted Bundy might have been pursuing his own Utopia too. (there, I put Ted Bundy instead so you won't make a fuss of 'nazis' )
I knew you would eventually come around to my point of view: Remember what I said? Utopia IS when ALL people strive for one or more goals whatever those goals may be. Utopia is NOT the goal - utopia is the road to it.
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Art-Void
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posted February 25, 2009 09:15 PM |
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Utopia must be wonderful place, thing, practise, order, society, nation, island, someone, feeling, dream or perhaps a paradox
“And it shall come to pass, in the end of days, that rivers of milk and nectar shall flow, that the wolf shall dwell with the lamb and spears shall be beaten into pruning hooks, that philosophers shall be kings, that there will be no hypocrisy, dissembling, deceit, flattery, strife or discord. There shall be neither hate or envy nor hunger nor thirst. There shall be much leisure and few lawyers. There shall be no private property, and there shall be communal camaraderie. From each shall come work according to his abilities and to each shall come support according to his needs. New forms of human consciousness will evolve. Our erotic natures will be freed from gratuitous repression, and society will bask in polymorphous redemption. Neither shall we learn war anymore. And all of us, both great and small, shall know bliss.”
Sure
Yet all of this has been promised through the years. This utopia was described by Ovid, anticipated in medieval tales of Cockaigne, named by Thomas More, predicted by Karl Marx, satirized by Samuel Butler, popularly imagined by Esward Bellamy, heralded by Marcuse and B. F. Skinner and Teilhard de Chardin – this land has changed remarkably little over the millennia.
While each of these imagined paradises was indeed someplace, they might as well not have been. The stories of utopia are so distant, so beyond ordinary life, that no one actually get to experience paradise in person.
Most utopias are meant to be pursued. They represent an ideal toward which the mundane world must reach. Utopians are examples to be worked for but there is a complexity and a paradox inherent in the search for the perfect world. To reach a utopia requires that all people share the same priorities, needs and goals in life. All of us who believes that each individual is unique will therefore never experience a true utopia. That doesn’t mean we should end our search for a better society and a better world. We can, and we must, always struggle to improve every day life for ourselves and the people we care about 
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mvassilev
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posted February 25, 2009 10:42 PM |
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del_diablo:
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Managers are not needed, management is not linked to it.
Oh? Then who would manage?
TheDeath:
Here's a somewhat related question: what, in your opinion, is the end goal of efficiency? I mean, we become more and more efficient, don't eat, don't have sex, don't sleep... What, then, do we do?
ArtVoid:
Yeah... I don't know if we'll ever reach utopia. But it's something to strive towards - not like some philosophers who claim that utopia is bad.
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