|
| Thread: ~ New Tournament "Balrog Hunt" ~ (rules®istration) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
|
posted June 23, 2009 10:08 PM |
|
|
I have to agree with Jinxer, map balance is really weird... some towns have easy going garrisons, and for others hell breaks loose in the same spots.
Also, some abilities like swift mind or cold death can totally change faith in those garrisons, and not getting them offered can be fatal.
Also the bonus for defeating the middle is huge indeed... but almost always you should be able to prevent your opponent from getting the staff at least(if not also the full dwarven set), by being there and fighting him before he has enough power to kill that huge garrison.
____________
|
|
Elit
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 24, 2009 07:13 AM |
|
Edited by Elit at 08:05, 24 Jun 2009.
|
Jinxer i cant agree with all from your post. Sure map need more balances and i tell alredy few ideas to Zilo. For staf/ring combo here no problem because in all my games never me or my oponent killed this garison for get staf. Another problem is i think mod for put staf and rin in same slot is one from most silly ideas in toh. For example now i can have ring speed + 2 ring celerity. From other side mod kill almost all arts desing for Staff slot. None will use other art if have ring. So this "balance mod" kill ~8-10 arts. Sure its bad balance.
Towerlord: sure Swifmind help alot but you dont need it 100% for kill midle garison or Cold death. Just practice more 
Edit:
About map balances i can say map is realy bad for academy. For begin here not enough resurces for making full mini arts week 5-6. All other races can use his "special skill" only academy cant. Second problem is logistics. Academy have 2% for it. Speed on map is very important and give huge advantage on all races with high chance for log. Academy units lvl 2-3 are weak for creeping so race depend much from spels...but Earthquake is not baned. This spel is complete waste on map. Academy need badly one from other 2 lvl 3 spels. Here not much chances to learn important lvl 1-2 spels like haste/slow/firetrap/decay/. Arcane Intuition is not option because chance for skill is 2% for inferno/haven and you need this skill very early for can learn spel from mine garison...if oponent use haste/slow.About fire trap here no way to learn it. In my game vs Willgeforce i have lvl 1 Magic Fist, lvl 2 rice dead,lvl 3 Earthquake and only lvl 4 i get useful spel...because both are good. Dont know how low is chance to get all bad spels from sumon but this complete kill academy. Weak low level army and lack important spels make it impossible for success play.
Most inbalanced race is Sylvan+Ossyr combo. This give very easy start for sylvan. They can easy get week 2 1-2 from his lvl 3 dwelings and after it playing with sylvan on map is like walk in park. Arcane archers kill all and you cant suicde.
About mod for staf and ring in same slot. I dont like it but can give you hint for better balance  Move it from Weapon slot to Pocket. Last one is used main for +1-2 luck and we all know how important is luck+speed. Now if you have speed your luck will be less. In Pocket slot not mutch arts but in Weapon have few arts part from set. For example orc set cant be used with Ring speed if you keep your curent mod.
Sorry for all grammar mistakes 
|
|
Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
|
|
posted June 24, 2009 08:48 AM |
|
|
Didn't say you need absolutely need them, just they can make a whole lot of difference... and buy you a lot of time in some garrisons, even a week sometimes, and it hurts a lot going for them and not getting them.
____________
|
|
Elit
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 24, 2009 08:55 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Didn't say you need absolutely need them, just they can make a whole lot of difference... and buy you a lot of time in some garrisons, even a week sometimes, and it hurts a lot going for them and not getting them.
Its true. With SwifMind your chances for suicde in assasis garison is almost zero...if you dont have Swif chance for suicide is very high.
|
|
Zilo
Promising
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted June 24, 2009 09:41 AM |
|
|
As always, nothing is perfect and as soon as the tourney will be over there will be 1.8 version of the map. Got alrdy several good ideas from Elit and others - will deal with Earthq spell, will think about some addtional options to get low lvl spells, will re-tune sylvan (and most likely orcs and academy, too) a bit as well.
Yet, imo, things as they are now, are ok and more then ok. Apart from a few matchups, that are disatereous on 99% of maps (like Sylvan-Inferno), balance is decent and with every town/spell setup available you can design route, which allows you to fight any opponent very succesfully.
|
|
Strider_HL
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 24, 2009 09:57 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
And indeed you can reach titans/wolves in one turn with navigation and indeed you can attack lighthouse guards and tent guards from the sea without landing.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
I did not know this last one about key tent
Shoot, me neither! Though i found out about lighthouse couple of games ago. These little details can be of paramount importance.
|
|
DrOwnage
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted June 24, 2009 03:15 PM |
|
|
As i posted once before, i think it's the most balanced map out there. Earthquake out, Fear my Roar in might be good ideas. Dont think the map needs any more tuning. Ossir is always a problem because when his archers shoot first in final, one stack lies flat. But even this is okay compared to Ythlin who was rather rude on that map.
Its a huge bonus if u get haste or slow in starting guild, but luck should play a role in h5 else i'd consider it too boring. And there are other ways to get good spells, u can get even dv on that map, if u know how to do it.
Zilo shouldnt tweak that much on his superb map, he should use his ample time to create another marvellous, finely tuned map, so i dont get bored 
|
|
Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
|
|
posted June 24, 2009 05:10 PM |
|
Edited by Jinxer at 17:13, 24 Jun 2009.
|
@Elit....
It doesnt matter to me if the Ring/Staff are in weapon slot or pocket slot... just as long as you cannot wear them both.
As I said I was very very pleased with balance of map all except for that. I am sure it wont be any great loss.. but I wont waste my time on map so long as the ring/staff can both be worn. No offense to Zilo ofcourse.. just personal opinion. And another thing when considering if a map is balanced in your mind.. should never say the words.. " The map is balanced if your faster on map cause could never beat that garrsion or get them both anyways" The fact that its POSSIBLE makes the Unbalance possible. And ANYONE that doesnt think that wearing both the ring and the staff in final battle is unbalanced does not know this game or have respect for this game or there opponent.
As we already said there are MORE then enough game winning rewards in the middle to force players to rush to middle. Having Both Staff and Ring is just overkill. Especially when its on the way to opponent.. At the very least put the staff off in some distant secluded corner that is away from middle.. so you have to make a choice.. you get the ring staff combo and NO middle goodies.. or you get middle goodies.. but to have option to get EVERYTHING.. again.. just silly and not well thought out. I have TONS of respect for you DrOWnage after our game.. but this map is far from perfectly balanced.. Altho I will agree it has alot of potential.
____________
|
|
fiur
Promising
Supreme Hero
Map Creator
|
|
posted June 24, 2009 08:28 PM |
|
|
in my eyes ring/staff are okay BUT....
what if we nerfed'em both down to 10% ??
then the bonus/penalty is'nt that big issue....
that would be the best thing to do...
____________
|
|
Fraudatio
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 24, 2009 09:21 PM |
|
|
I completely agree with Jinxer that the Staff/Ring combo does not do ANY good to the map, or any map. However, i would not go for a mod, i would go for the following solution:
Replace staff of nether with sandros cloak (or a similar potensial gamebreaker/tactical important artifact). At least that has some more tactical finesse to it than just the "i fight, you stand passive and die". An additional reason i want sandros cloak there is that i think that artifact should be only one set place on the map, not random, it will be hard to get to the garrison, and then back again to the MAIN garrison with cloak. BUT, possible.
Just my cent before 1.8.
|
|
Elit
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 24, 2009 10:52 PM |
|
|
|
I dont think Staf on map make any problems. You cant get it 9 from 10 games. If you kill garison where is placed staf game is over alredy because your oponent are in "stalemate".
|
|
Fraudatio
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 24, 2009 11:15 PM |
|
|
|
I dont agree 100% Elit, with Necro one can get both ring and staff quite possibly if one only has some 3-5 days advance to the middle i would guess, anyway, its not a major killer, i just doesnt think it brings any GOOD to the map. And in the few cases where it is taken it brings BAD
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted June 25, 2009 12:53 AM |
|
|
I can't understand how did you let him get both staff and ring ? You should have been near the staff at least
And why nerf them down to 10% ? Then ring of celerity should give 5 % and dragon set should give 0.5 dragons then
|
|
Elit
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 25, 2009 08:19 AM |
|
Edited by Elit at 08:30, 25 Jun 2009.
|
Quote:
I can't understand how did you let him get both staff and ring ? You should have been near the staff at least
And why nerf them down to 10% ? Then ring of celerity should give 5 % and dragon set should give 0.5 dragons then
Its stadart whine about weather. People in ToH love to make it
Fred: Maybe necro can get it..but how this kill balance? All "good" races have huge bonus on map=StormWind. This hurt alot necro in final battle. Necro units are more weak compare other races. All extra dwelings work agains necro too. All what they have is better chances for hit garison early. To me this is "dynamic balance". If they play very risk and danger can get reward from it....if play safe they have less chances in final battle.
Normaly you cant attack this garison before week 6-7. He is so strong for most races. I attaked him in 2 my games(week5-6). First vs DrOwnage and i loss battle. Second vs Zilo and i loss all my lvl 6. When risk for suicide is so high its normal reward to be high too.
TW is not perfect....not ever close to it But map is very interest and its make it good. 
Addon:
We have alot very good mapmakers in ToH. They do very well desing maps but can be improved. What i mean:
Soul on Heroes (3 and 5) is variations and unpredictables. Its come from allot different random factors. For me one map to be good need to bring more random factors. If we get for example TW map is constant. Here no random factor. Same hero have same primary skill every game because all bildigs in map give same skills. Every one can get his "Marletto Tower" or "Mercenary Camp". But where is choice? If you repalce part from them with "Arena" i need to use my mind for decide what is better for up. This can produce every game different primary skill with same hero. Same about spel power and knolege.
I'm suggest map makers to use ~50% from his bildings constant and 50% to be choices. This can make alot more interest games.
Edit:
Quote:
Replace staff of nether with sandros cloak (or a similar potensial gamebreaker/tactical important artifact).
Just my cent before 1.8.
Sandro work only against necro and academy. Second is most weak race on map atm and necro is weak enough in final battle. Dont see how this bring balance.
|
|
Fraudatio
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 25, 2009 10:33 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Sandro work only against necro and academy. Second is most weak race on map atm and necro is weak enough in final battle. Dont see how this bring balance.
I guess i wasn`t specific - what i thought about was the MAIN garrison fight (Fire elementals and balrogs). Thats where i see sandros cloak as probably the only way. For final battle you are right, but thats why i think it is a more tactically interesting artifact to have there.
I may be wrong - but at least that was the thought behind my last post.
|
|
Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
|
|
posted June 26, 2009 12:28 AM |
|
Edited by Jinxer at 00:30, 26 Jun 2009.
|
I am still baffled as to why some people think they NEED to have BOTH of them artifacts available?? Initiative is the one thing with this game that is the most fragile to maintaining Balance. Initiative alone can win and lose games.. and to putt 2 artifacts within 2 days of each other that can possibly increase 40% for one player is just silly. Most games just having staff is enough of a game killer but the Ring ALSO... oh my!! There are soo many other aspects to this game perks and skills and army and creeping and final battle tactics etc etc.. all of which can possibly be made VOID simply by acquiring BOTH them artifacts. Why would ANYONE desire to win there game in that fashion. Why would any map maker want there masterpeice on brilliance to be tarnished with such an ugly game killing combo. Granted as we have pointed out.. its not guarenteed every game due to the speed of players and town matchups etc.. but the mere fact that its possible, means it can and will happen in some % of games.. and even 1 game wasted to such an ugly situation is just a shame.
I guess I am still waiting to hear the logic behind why they BOTH HAVE to be there.. I can think of a dozen reasons and ways it helps the game for ring to be banned.. but defending Acadamies +40% initiative mini arts is the ONLY 1 reason I can think that it could benefit any game.
____________
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted June 26, 2009 12:44 AM |
|
|
I fully agree with you, Jinxy. But I have better idea. Why don't you ban all relics? Take necro's cape for example.Once Willgefors said : "I have exp luk and exp moral for no reason.I don't get moral and luk.What is this?" I should have answered him that it is silly
So to straighten it out for you he lost 4 levelups in vain.I mean that if you ban ring and staff all other powerful relics will become sillytoo.
Imo no need to ban them.Just you should be there at least near staff and to deepen your strategical thinking
|
|
DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
|
posted June 26, 2009 01:01 AM |
|
Edited by DIEGIS at 01:14, 26 Jun 2009.
|
Ring and staff...may be we should say it wrong and staff...I always said 99% is a stupidity. Indeed few games can be won versus them, but 99.99% is nonesense and a lost time.
Not to mention if academy got them...its just a very good joke, not even when you play in single mode lets suppose. What strategy can be done here, just someone enlight me...Im only ears... (except for what I know  )
EDIT: forgot to mention I dont know the map quite well
____________
dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
|
|
Zilo
Promising
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted June 26, 2009 10:33 PM |
|
|
Posted 1.8 version of the map. Official version of the tourney still is 1.7, yet if both players agree, 1.8 version can be used as well.
Guess, after the discussion above it would be just impossible to make everyone happy, so I tried to adress all the issues raised above in the way that seemed da best in my opinion 
|
|
Zilo
Promising
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted August 10, 2009 07:44 AM |
|
|
Although most of the 1/4 final games are alrdy going, for the sake of discipline dead-line for finishing 1/4 final games should be set.
So:
All 1/4 games should be played until August, 25th, 2009
|
|
|
|
