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| Thread: Basic thoughts about factions, slots, tiers, upgrades, growth and strategy | |
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted October 11, 2009 08:50 AM |
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Edited by Snatch at 18:48, 12 Oct 2009.
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Basic thoughts about creating a faction system, a game and a world
As you can see from my lasts postings (here for example) I'm not making new factions nor am I working on my older concepts at the moment. Instead I'm thinking about some vital basics of an upcoming Heroes 6 game. Maybe we can start a little discussion about some points.
FACTIONS
One of the main aspects and there are many decisions to make and things to keep in mind.
1. Balancing
The number of factions and the freedom a player has in customizing a faction is in the end a balancing issue. So the first decision will be:
a) many linear factions
b) few customizable factions
c) something in between
2. Compilation
How to divide the factions?
a) races (humans, elves, orcs, dwarves,...)
b) terrain or living space (desert, woods, grasland, mountains, snow, swamp,...)
c) alignment (good, neutral, evil, might, magic, chaos, order,...)
d) theme (medieval, nature, archaic, ancient, steam punk, oriental,...)
e) tactics (ranged, defensive, offensive, fast striking,...)
f) main army (soldiers, undead, animals, beasts, elementals, demons, illusions, constructs, magical beings...)
g) a combination of the above
3. Customizing
Even without thinking of balancing there are several alternatives.
a) linear buildup
b) alternative upgrades
c) alternative creatures
d) alternative arms and armor on race units
3.1 Alternatives
There are several ways to go and several possibilities on which alternative upgrades or selectable creatures may depend.
a) free choice of single creatures and/or updates (1 out of 2, 1 out of 3, 2 out of 3 ... for each tier and/or upgrade)
b) choosing combos (e.g. cathedral [enables tier 3 Priests, tier 4 Crusaders] or arena [enables tier 3 Gladiators and tier 4 Battle Lions])
c) choosing upgrade lines or upgrade combos (e.g. cathedral [religious/magic upgrades for all creatures] or fortress [military/might upgrades for all creatures])
d) creature pool (defined recruitment slots, which can be filled freely with creatures provided by race, terrain, buildings,...)
e) creature tree or wheel (some choices of creatures and buildings automatically restrict the next choices [e.g. building a pure-hearted unicorn enables the high level units of a fairytale wood while a nightmare will enable only high level creatures of a dark wood] or/and some creatures are only buildable if you have chosen the right low level creature/s [e.g. militia and chaplain for crusader])
3.2 Coherence
Because free choices need factions with defined themes/alignments/settings to present a coherent overall image and some players would like to make the decision in which direction their favoured race or faction may develop themselves we need some restrictions to prevent incoherences (see 3.1 b) - e) ). First we need to define the main themes of each faction (maybe military, religion, war machines for humans or nature, light, darkness, norse for elves) or generic themes for all factions (maybe good, neutral, evil or might, magic, technology). Second we must assign one or more of those themes to each creature (eg. unicorn-good or berserk-might). Maybe some creatures can have a hybrid alignment like crusader-religion-military and therefore belonging to both themes or some can have a double (or triple) alignment like dendroid-nature-nature(-nature) because it embodies this theme more than other creatures of the same faction or a creature can get an additional alignment through upgrading like dwarf-military becoming rune warrior-military-mysticism. And third we have to decide where the restrictions are coming from.
a) buildings (e.g. each level mage guild enables the magic-themed-creatures of the same tier or a rogue-hideout [evil] preventing a novice-monastery [good] or a cathedral enabling all creatures with religion-alignment)
b) creatures (e.g. basic creatures enabling hybrid creatures [military-militia and religion-chaplain enabling military-religion-crusader] or high level creatures are only buildable if there is at least one [two/three in case of double/triple alignments] low level creature with the same alignment)
c) heroes (e.g. a human knight will build up a fortress [might-themed] in his city, if he learns some blessings during his level-ups he might be able to extend his fortress with a chapel [religion-themed] allowing some low level religion-aligned units in his city)
Side note: Creature alignments don't have to be in the game or mustn't even be named but we must think of them when creating the factions.
3.3 Object
Maybe we should ask one question befor thinking further about our possible faction system: Why customization at all? I can think of the following reasons. But do they make it worthwile to create complex factions? I don't know.
a) stereotyping (elves always good-hearted tree huggers, orcs always brute fighters, humans always religious, etc. but every race can have so much more to offer)
b) doubling (aren't elves and dark elves actually the same race? why not one elven faction with light, twilight and darkness themes?)
c) different race view (Tolkien elves, Robin Hood elves or mythological elves? Why not offer all directions in one faction)
d) favoured race (absolutely adoring demons but unsatisfied with their strategic and tactical conception? give the player more control about it)
e) terrains (a city in the snow has to be different from a city in the desert, or not?)
f) flexibility (desperately needing more magic abilities but your faction is only brute force? hard luck!)
SLOTS
Another main aspect of the game is not only how much creatures are avail- and recruitable in each faction (see FACTIONS above) but also how many can be assigned to an army or garrison. There are three relations we have to look at.
1. Cities
Here we look at the relation between available creatures and garrison slots.
a) more creatures (some creatures always stay unrecruited until a hero with free slots picks them up)
b) same number
c) less creatures (place for creatures from dwellings or joined ones)
2. Heroes
Here we look at the relation between army slots and available creatures.
a) more army slots (one hero can take the creatures from more than one city, which means a second city or external dwellings are needed to complete one hero's army)
b) same number
c) less army slots (one city provides creatures for more than one hero)
3. Garrisons
Here we look at the relation between garrison slots and army slots.
a) more garrison slots (cities will have an advantage in sieges)
b) same number
c) less garrison slots (heroes will have an advantage in sieges)
4. Quantity
Also a good question is how many slots an army should have. To few lacks variety and to many make battles confusing. What would be a good compromise? But not only the number is important but also how to get there.
a) defined amount
b) depending on buildings, town level and/or hero skills
5. Quality
Not only how many is worth a consideration but also if there should be different types of slots.
a) general slots (no restrictions, will possibly lead to armies consisting of most high level units that are available on the map)
b) one or more extra slot (reserved for joining creatures, external dwellings or the special ability of a faction [e.g. druids summoning in Heroes 4])
c) level slots (each slot is reserved for creatures from a particular tier, which means that armies will always be varied level-wise even in late game)
d) sized slots (high level creatures needing more slots than low level creatures [e.g. tier 1 one slot, tier 2 two slots, tier 3 three slots] or top level and large creatures needing an additional slot, works best with few tiers)
e) army slots (each adventure map slot contains several battle map stacks)
6. Limitations
Who doesn't know the hordes and throngs of creatures in late game on huge maps? Amusing, but also logical?
a) no limitations
b) pay (see also STRATEGY 2 c) below)
c) town buildings and adventure map objects (maybe farms or other sites which can be thought of of providing army supply)
d) hero ability (leadership)
e) home town (each hero is assigned to one particular city, he can only use creatures from this city or from external dwellings)
f) combination of the above
TIERS
Another big question which we face: How many tiers do we want? And how big should the differences be?
1. Number
Only one rule leaps to the eye. The less tiers we have the more creatures per tier must be recruitable in towns. Otherwise we're free to do what we want. I will only mention the options that I think are the minimum.
a) three tiers (tier 1 = basic units like archers, wolves, sprites, zombies etc., tier 2 = elite units like crusaders, mages, bears, trolls etc., tier 3 = mighty beings like angels, dragons, giants etc.)
b) four tiers (tier 1 = cannon fodder like peasants, skeletons etc., tier 2 = basic units like swordsman, hunter, wolf rider etc., tier 3 = elite units like naga, champion, etc., tier 4 = mighty beings like dragons, devils etc.)
c) ...
Side note: The more tiers you have the more difficult could it be to rank and sort particular units.
2. Strength
Huge gaps or low gaps between the tiers?
a) higher levels significantly stronger (player will try to have as many high level creatures in his army as possible)
b) higher levels slightly stronger (low level units may be of use when in large numbers or tactically valueable)
c) strength adjusted through weekly growth (at the end all stacks consisting of a weekly growth are almost of equal strength, high level units remain the advantage of higher hitpoints, decision what creatures are put in main army is mostly tactical)
UPGRADES
Another big issue and many possibilities.
1. What?
Do you think upgrade is a clear term? Look at this.
a) enhancement (permanent or temporary bonus to attributes)
b) learning (permanent or temporary additional abilities)
c) classic upgrade (transformation into a better version of the same creature)
d) development (transformation into a better creature of a higher tier)
2. Why?
Upgrades don't fall into our laps, right? Now, where do they come from?
a) built out dwellings
b) other town buildings
c) research
d) hero abilities
e) creature or stack experience
GROWTH
It's about the creature growth. There are four possiblities, which can be the same for all creatures or differ depending on creature type.
a) weekly growth
b) daily growth
c) unrecruited creatures are stored
d) unrecruited creatures vanish
e) creature growth decreases if many creatures are unrecruited
STRATEGY
That's another vital aspect of the game and I will only introduce this topic with some of my thoughts. There is surely much more.
1. Class vs. Mass
While talking with other players I experienced that many see this as a very strategic decision which could be more emphasized in the series. Here are some ideas.
a) slide control (there is a global slider with two [research-recruitment] or three options [research-recruitment-treasury] to spend your kingdoms income in, to allocate population or to determine focus areas)
b) building sites (there is restricted room in towns and you have to decide which buildings you will build in the free spaces [research/upgrade buildings, growth rate buildings, income buildings, town defense buildings etc.])
c) weekly growth (every upgrade costs one or more weekly or daily growth of the creature that is believed to be upgraded, the explanation is simple, instead of being available for recruitment those creatures are doing research)
2. Economy vs. Armament
Another strategic approach. Creating big armies is usually not good for economy.
a) slide control (see 1. a) )
b) population (income is based on growing population, every recruit subtracts population)
c) pay (every creature or stack needs daily or weekly paying [gold, other resource or mana], some creatures like peasants [adepts] can be assigned to farms/mines [power nodes] to generate more gold/resource [mana] income, they're vulnerable to attacks there, though)
3. Just battle?
Have you ever ask yourself if a decisive battle is the only way to win? No? Then ask yourself now.
a) diplomacy (it's time to introduce it into the series, not only between players and factions but neutral map inhabitants like an independent tribe of gnolls too)
b) economy (let your opponent bleed white, naturally best effects with 2. c) )
3.1 Bleeding white
There are many possibilities. And most of them can be mixed. Yay!
a) recruitment costs (not only the top creatures are costing additional ressources but other creatures too, makes mines more valueable)
b) resource routes (mines deliver to the next approachable city, if you can't fight them cut the routes with a strategic positioned army or collect tolls on those routes)
c) fictive storage (resources are stored in cities and corresponding mines, whenever you lose a city or mine you lose an appropiate percentage of your resource or resources)
d) real storage (you really have warehouses in cities and on resource sites, it's possible to make resource caravans)
e) thieves (rather obvious, isn't it?)
SETTING
Also vital in terms of strategic approach. Should it be the same or should the emphasis be altered?
a) heroes (the focus lies on heroes rather than cities, the player is no longer a king or ruler but a hero, he does quests, founds a base in a town [e.g. a knight can build a fortress, a druid a grove] which he builds out and out of which he trains creatures and affects town development, makes relationships, founds outposts and settlements and finally becomes a governor or king himself -> rpg feeling)
b) regions (H1 - H5 gameplay, a strip of land with some citys and stylised map buildings, heroes are both heroes and commanders, the player resembles a governor or ruler -> skirmish feeling)
c) kingdoms (borders, territories, specialised towns, stationed armys, villages, outposts, defensive works, ressource and creature recruitment regions/adventure map sites [a wood, a mountain, a rocky terrain, a neutral tribe etc.], diplomacy, great strategic freedom, heroes are mere generals, in return some sort of specialists are introduced [spy, diplomat, town governor etc.], the player truly resembles a mighty king or great ruler -> epic feeling)
d) something in between
THAT'S IT FOR NOW
That was rather much, wasn't it? It's enough for the moment. Feel free to comment this breakdown, discuss some of the alternatives or produce new ideas.
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Paulemile
Known Hero
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posted October 11, 2009 11:16 AM |
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This is a quite complete guide, man 
I still haven't read the whole thing, but I cansay for sure :
I had the same idea about the factions and already worked on it a little too (not that much however).
I wanted something new concerning factions creation in Homm6 and I came to this conclusion :
-You can choose any creature of each level to create your own set of monsters (this has to be one lvl1, one lvl2 etc... though).
-The creatures you may encounter are direclty linked to the terrain.
For example : On rough terrain you may see grizzly bears, on snow you'll see polar bears.
So if you want bears in your city, and if your city is built on snow terrain. You will recruit polar bears.
Of course, not only the skin but also stats and abilities of these two bears should be slightly different.
The major issue concerning this system is coherence, as you mentioned. To keep the same example, what kind of bear would it be if your town is built on sand terrain, or even lava ? 
If you are able to choose between all of the creatures of each level, it could be quite easy to create a shooter-only faction, a flyer-only faction... etc. Would it be forbidden or not ? I still don't know...
Anyway, I will follow you on this part of the concept. I will read your whole post today, let's discuss it
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted October 11, 2009 05:12 PM |
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Edited by Snatch at 20:32, 11 Oct 2009.
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Quote:
This is a quite complete guide, man
I think it will stay 'quite' and never be really complete. But I'm working on it. I recently added SETTING.
Quote:
I wanted something new concerning factions creation in Homm6 and I came to this conclusion : (...)
You see, that's why we need some sort of restrictions. Ultimate freedom isn't always as desirable as it may seem.
Oh, and by the way, is a mod or admin able to change the title of the topic to Basic thoughts about creating a faction system, a game and a world?
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Master
Disgraceful
Tavern Dweller
Spam
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posted October 11, 2009 08:05 PM |
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I AM the MASTER.
snowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnowsnow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Hello there Gays Community!
SNOW
____________
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rottenvenetic
Known Hero
Derusticated
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posted October 11, 2009 10:50 PM |
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To KIS, here are my picks for an ideal Heroes 6, 7 or whatever:
FACTIONS
1. Balancing
c) something in between - about 15-20 factions, each faction can go Might or Magic.
2. Compilation
How to divide the factions?
a) races (humans, elves, orcs, dwarves,...) - makes the most sense to me.
Creatures of a given race usually band together, you're not going to have demons and elves, elves and undead, dwarves and undead...
3. Customizing
c) alternative creatures - best feature of Heroes IV in my limited experience.
3.1 Alternatives
There are several ways to go and several possibilities on which alternative upgrades or selectable creatures may depend.
a) free choice of single creatures and/or updates (1 out of 2, 1 out of 3, 2 out of 3 ... for each tier and/or upgrade) - this is simple and neat. Creature tree sounds interesting but it's too complicated.
3.2 Coherence - Don't really know what to say here outside the obvious fact that a faction's heroes, buildings and units should have synergy.
SLOTS
Another main aspect of the game is not only how much creatures are avail- and recruitable in each faction (see FACTIONS above) but also how many can be assigned to an army or garrison. There are three relations we have to look at.
1. Cities
c) less creatures (place for creatures from dwellings or joined ones)
Not really necessary, b works well enough for cities, but being able to pile defenders at a strategic point would be nice.
2. Heroes
Here we look at the relation between army slots and available creatures.
a) more army slots (one hero can take the creatures from more than one city, which means a second city or external dwellings are needed to complete one hero's army).
Been dreaming of this feature for a long time. Taking a foreign second town isn't that useful at the moment.
3. Garrisons
Here we look at the relation between garrison slots and army slots.
b) same number
...but see above: For ex, if heroes have 10 army slots, cities and garrisons should also have 10 army slots.
4. Quantity
Also a good question is how many slots an army should have[...]
b) depending on buildings, town level and/or hero skills
About 10 to start with, and there are a few bonuses, and some penalties for xenophobic and quality-oriented factions, so basically it would be 8-13 with 7 and 15 as extremes, only possible in rare circumstances (all these to be multiplied by about 1.5 in case the point below is included).
5. Quality
Not only how many is worth a consideration but also if there should be different types of slots.
How about a variation of a and d? Large units take +1 slot, level 7 units take +1 slot, and that will do. So a small level 7, if any, would take only 2 slot but most would take 3, so you'd need to have a decent number of them to make a difference.
TIERS
Another big question which we face: How many tiers do we want? Only one rule leaps to the eye. The less tiers we have the more creatures per tier must be recruitable in towns. Otherwise we're free to do what we want. I will only mention the option that I think is the minimun.
c) At least 5 tiers, but the current 7 are fine. The power discrepancies between some creatures are too high (peasant v phoenix)
UPGRADES
Another big issue and many possibilities.
1. What?
Do you think upgrade is a clear term? Look at this.
c) classic upgrade (transformation into a better version of the same creature)
Current system is ok.
2. Why?
Upgrades don't fall into our laps, right? Now, where do they come from?
a) built out dwellings
e) creature or stack experience
These two are good. It'd be interesting to see some creatures upgrade in 2 (or whatever number) ways from dwelling, others to upgrade in one way from dwelling or another from experience, and others to upgrade from experience only (mages, this means you).
GROWTH
It's about the creature growth. There are four possiblities, which can be the same for all creatures or differ depending on creature type.
a) weekly growth - it's fine as it is. Typically a heroes game won't last enough for any creature to die of old age.
STRATEGY
That's another vital aspect of the game and I will only introduce this topic with some of my thoughts. There is surely much more.
1. Class vs. Mass
While talking with other players I experienced that many see this as a very strategic decision which could be more emphasized in the series. Here are some ideas.
b) building sites (there is restricted room in towns and you have to decide which buildings you will build in the free spaces [research/upgrade buildings, growth rate buildings, income buildings, town defense buildings etc.])
This system works excellently in games like Gal Civ 2 where it is only partially developed, and in city builders like the impressions series it's a big and fun part of the gameplay. It would work superbly with a Heroes game, especially since due to their magic, none of the factions have evolved the science and industry to make limitless swathes of land buildable.
2. Economy vs. Armament
Another strategic approach. Creating big armies is usually not good for economy.
b) population (income is based on growing population, every recruit subtracts population)
c) pay (every creature or stack needs daily or weekly paying [gold, other resource or mana], some creatures like peasants [adepts] can be assigned to farms/mines [power nodes] to generate more gold/resource [mana] income, they're vulnerable to attacks there, though)
Again, I'm not a fan of sliders in a heroes game. But the other two are both good ideas and a combination of parts of both would be superb.
So my vision would be: you get population for your creatures, and you can recruit x per week, but most of them participate in your economy (producing gold and resources) so there is the mentioned trade-off. Apart from this, all units you have as soldiers must be paid every week, and high-level units require substantial payments. For most factions I would really like to add FOOD as a resource.
3. Just battle?
Have you ever ask yourself if a decisive battle is the only way to win? No? Then ask yourself now.
This all boils down to alternate ways of winning the map; we can look to Galactic Civs 2 and similar games for great examples of this.
3.1 Bleeding white
There are many possibilities. And most of them can be mixed. Yay!
a) recruitment costs (not only the top creatures are costing additional ressources but other creatures too, makes mines more valueable)
b) resource routes (mines deliver to the next approachable city, if you can't fight them cut the routes with a strategic positioned army or collect tolls on those routes)
c) fictive storage (resources are stored in cities and corresponding mines, whenever you lose a city or mine you lose an appropiate percentage of your resource or resources)
d) real storage (you really have warehouses in cities and on resource sites, it's possible to make resource caravans)
e) thieves (rather obvious, isn't it?)
All of these would work for an economy sim nut like me, but option d makes option c redundant; also the whole system might bore players.
SETTING
Also vital in terms of strategic approach. Should it be the same or should the emphasis be altered?
b) regions (H1 - H5 gameplay, a strip of land with some citys and stylised map buildings, heroes are both heroes and commanders, the player resembles a governor or ruler -> skirmish feeling)
This is Heroes, not Diablo or Europa Universalis so let's keep it as such. The setting is one of very decentralized factions, where power is exercised from fortified positions and the countryside is mostly left to itself except when an army is on the move.
As a caveat, I'd like to see strong garrisons in mines and towns become mandatory for the maintaining of said mines and towns' loyalty.
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Paulemile
Known Hero
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posted October 12, 2009 12:03 AM |
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Here are the ideas I like a lot
FACTIONS
1. Balancing
c) something in between
I already wrote a post about it, so you know
2. Compilation
b) terrain or living space (desert, woods, grasland, mountains, snow, swamp,...)
Terrain only which would influence the skin, stats and abilities of every creature...
3. Customizing
b) alternative upgrades
That makes me think about a system with only alternative, but no upgrades (e.g. you build a dwelling for humans, so you can hire them with pikes to get pikemen, or with crossbow to get archers ; but no need to get an unupgraded unit before).
3.1 Alternatives
b) choosing combos (e.g. cathedral [enables tier 3 Priests, tier 4 Crusaders] or arena [enables tier 3 Gladiators and tier 4 Battle Lions])
c) choosing upgrade lines or upgrade combos (e.g. cathedral [religious/magic upgrades for all creatures] or fortress [military/might upgrades for all creatures])
d) creature pool (defined recruitment slots, which can be filled freely with creatures provided by race, terrain, buildings,...)
e) creature tree or wheel (some choices of creatures and buildings automatically restrict the next choices [e.g. building a pure-hearted unicorn enables the high level units of a fairytale wood while a nightmare will enable only high level creatures of a dark wood] or/and some creatures are only buildable if you have chosen the right low level creature/s [e.g. militia and chaplain for crusader])
Those are all good ideas... How could you mix them up to get the perfect feature ?
I'll think about it when i'll have more time.
3.2 Coherence
a) buildings (e.g. each level mage guild enables the magic-themed-creatures of the same tier or a rogue-hideout [evil] preventing a novice-monastery [good] or a cathedral enabling all creatures with religion-alignment)
c) heroes (e.g. a human knight will build up a fortress [might-themed] in his city, if he learns some blessings during his level-ups he might be able to extend his fortress with a chapel [religion-themed] allowing some low level religion-aligned units in his city)
Good ideas too, they need to be worked though since they may involve a lot of issues.
SLOTS
1. Cities
b) same number
I think you are already bringing enough changes concerning how do the recruitement system would work 
2. Heroes
b) same number
However, you could create a secondary skill (or a unique ability) that would allow heroes to carry on more slot.
3. Garrisons
b) same number
Same as cities
4. Quantity
a) defined amount
I think I didn't really get the difference between this point and the previous one.
5. Quality
b) one or more extra slot (reserved for joining creatures, external dwellings or the special ability of a faction [e.g. druids summoning in Heroes 4])
c) level slots (each slot is reserved for creatures from a particular tier, which means that armies will always be varied level-wise even in late game)
I like these two ideas, but I fear it would reduce the possibilities the player would have.
TIERS
Seven tiers, as I like it a lot (even if I didn't really think about another number)...
UPGRADES
1. What?
c) classic upgrade (transformation into a better version of the same creature)
If you mean upgrade, the best to me is this one.
2. Why?
a) built out dwellings
c) research
e) creature or stack experience
I like the research thing.
I kept the creature stack experience even if to me if would improve stats and abilities only.
GROWTH
b) daily growth
d) growth expires periodically
By expiration, do you mean that if you let more and more non-hired creatures in their dwellings, their growth will decrease ? If so, I like it.
STRATEGY
1. Class vs. Mass
a) slide control (there is a global slider with two [research-recruitment] or three options [research-recruitment-treasury] to spend your kingdoms income in, to allocate population or to determine focus areas)
b) building sites (there is restricted room in towns and you have to decide which buildings you will build in the free spaces [research/upgrade buildings, growth rate buildings, income buildings, town defense buildings etc.])
Your management side is raising again
This would be too complicated in an Homm game IMO, although I like it. Turns could take ages to end.
2. Economy vs. Armament
b) population (income is based on growing population, every recruit subtracts population)
c) pay (every creature or stack needs daily or weekly paying [gold, other resource or mana], some creatures like peasants [adepts] can be assigned to farms/mines [power nodes] to generate more gold/resource [mana] income, they're vulnerable to attacks there, though)
Again, good point, but not needed in Homm. Unless you could turn this idea into a simple mine upgrade. I don't think people will let creatures into their mines, decreasing their army power plus giving free XP for enemies... unless each town would have its special unit designed for mines improvement only (I mean this unit couldn't fight).
If you want to keep your idea as it is, mines should be fortifiable (each mine would have an own screen like the town scree where you could build walls, towers and moat). But what would it mean if you own 20+ mines... endless turns... again... 
3. Just battle?
a) diplomacy (it's time to introduce it into the series, not only between players and factions but neutral map inhabitants like an independent tribe of gnolls too)
Diplomacy HAS to be far more implemented in Homm, I totally agree.
3.1 Bleeding white
b) resource routes (mines deliver to the next approachable city, if you can't fight them cut the routes with a strategic positioned army or collect tolls on those routes)
c) fictive storage (resources are stored in cities and corresponding mines, whenever you lose a city or mine you lose an appropiate percentage of your resource or resources)
e) thieves (rather obvious, isn't it?)
Like the b), but why wouldn't the enemy simply capture the mine instead of staying between it and the town, forcing him to be stuck here ?
SETTING
b) regions (H1 - H5 gameplay, a strip of land with some citys and stylised map buildings, heroes are both heroes and commanders, the player resembles a governor or ruler -> skirmish feeling)
It still like this point the most. However, I already had the idea about your "rpg feeling" point too I think it should be possible for heroes to settle new towns by themselves, or even put new buildings (like water wheels, mines) in the adventure map.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 12, 2009 05:02 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 01:42, 13 Oct 2009.
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FACTIONS
1. Balancing
IMO about 13-15 would be good, although I don't know if this would put it closer to the C or A category.
2. Compilation
A combination of A (don't mix say Elves and Orcs), B (don't mix Yetis and Sphinxes), C (don't mix Cultists and Priests), D (don't make a town with a European Hall and an Asian Fortress) and a bit of F (Wizards, are going to have a lot more constructs than Knights).
3. Customizing
Depends a lot on the number of tiers, if you limit it to 4-5 tiers it's better to have alternative creatures, but at 6 or more linear buildup or alternative upgrades are better. I'll go for B, alternative upgrades.
3.1 Alternatives
Mostly A, although some careful use of B or C could work.
3.2 Coherence
As noted in 3.1, I'm not too fond of alternatives, but for those areas that it would work I think A would be the best option.
3.3 Object
For me the most important point would be option F (which kind of includes option D when you think about it).
SLOTS
1. Cities
I think option B would work best.
2. Heroes
Option A, mainly because I want to amalgamate the War Machines slots with the normal army slots (give War Machines 2-3 movement in combat).
3. Garrisons
Option C in this case, Heroes need to carry their War Machines, but the defenders have buildings inside the city to perform those functions.
4. Quantity
Definitely A, defined amount.
5. Quality
Option A, general slots.
At this point I'd like to make a suggestion to split 'slots' and 'stacks', in that 'slots' can hold any number of creatures, but 'stacks' can contain only a limited number of creatures (say 100), so an army with 350 Peasants, 150 Archers, and 60 Footmen would have 4 stacks of Peasants (2 would have 88, two would have 87), 2 stacks or Archers (about 75 each), and a stack of Footmen. You could also choose to create more than the absolutely necessary number of stack, if say, you wanted to split them further (if you wanted to take advantage of some special ability).
6. Limitations
Either A or B depending, as I said, in [Strategy 2], on whether we have a high enough income to counterbalance a reasonably sized army. If we include pay of course, that actually partially covers C as well.
TIERS
1. Number
I'll go for G (7 tiers).
2. Strength
I don't think option B would work well with 7 tiers, so I'll go for B, and I may include C, or it may not need including (depends on how many map dwellings we have).
UPGRADES
1. What?
I'm not too fond of A, but I think B, C and D all have their places.
2. Why?
Well working from the previous subsection B would work best with E, C with A, and D with B.
GROWTH
I'm stuck between A and B, so perhaps add a new option of 'periodical growth' in that some high-tier creatures would be available only every X days (X being say 2 for tier 6 creatures, and 3-4 for tier 7). I'll also go for D over C, although I'm not sure about the period itself.
STRATEGY
1. Class vs. Mass
I think B would work the best for this. (BTW it should really be building/recruitment, not research/recruitment)
2. Economy vs. Armament
All of them have their place, although I think to include pay you'd have to restructure the towns to get a lot bigger than double each Hall upgrade.
I'm also messing around myself with the idea of population, as would give a more gradual change than the old village/town/city hall method.
I'll also make another suggestion, perhaps you could introduce a resource called 'training effort' (it costs 1 effort to produce a Peasant, but 15 for a Paladin), which would take the place of normal growth, so you could have say 50 Growth per day, which would get you 50 peasants, but only 3 paladins. You could also mix it in with other limitations (like being able to produce a maximum of 40 Peasants per day
3. Just battle?
Diplomacy, proper diplomacy (not the paying creatures to join you sort) is indeed long overdue in the series, although I can't really see it happening between major and minor factions, just major faction.
3.1 Bleeding white
Option A has its place, but you'd need to make resources much cheaper (say 10 from a Crystal Mine, 20 from a Sawmill). I like Option B (creates a caravan on the map if it's more than say 30 spaces from your nearest town), and if you have that you can't really do without Thieves (or Raiders, depending on your definition). Of course once you start dealing in actual resources, you have to start thinking about storage, so I'll go for option D as well (I dislike the idea of fictive storage, because a small town may actually store huge quantities of resources).
SETTING
Option B, don't change a winning formula if you can possibly help it.
BTW, can someone please delete Master's post because he's unequivocally a spammer.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted October 12, 2009 09:29 AM |
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it seems that everyone is having a crack at a "make your own heroes 6" DIY set. maybe nival could take from this and MAKE THE F*****G GAME!
____________
Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted October 12, 2009 06:48 PM |
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Edited by Snatch at 19:29, 12 Oct 2009.
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Added 3.3 under FACTIONS.
Added 2 under TIERS.
Added 6 under SLOTS.
Added some side notes and made some minor edits.
@ Paulemile
Quote:
I think you are already bringing enough changes (...)
I'm not bringing changes, I'm showing alternatives. 
Quote:
I like these two ideas, but I fear it would reduce the possibilities the player would have.
The question is: Does the player really need or use this possibilities? If the map is small and there are only the starting cities a player would have naturally a mixed army (speaking of levels/tiers) because there is no other possibility. If the map is huge and/or has many dwellings and towns the main army will usually consist of as many high level units as are available. But that problem comes from huge strength gaps between low and high level creatures (most evident in HoMM 4). I added it in my breakdown.
Quote:
By expiration, do you mean that if you let more and more non-hired creatures in their dwellings, their growth will decrease ? If so, I like it.
No, but that's a good idea. I added it. What I meant was some sort of let's say weekly training, which must be ordered and doesn't stack. If you don't recruit all your creatures the remaining ones will be lost at the end of the week.
Quote:
I don't think people will let creatures into their mines, decreasing their army power plus giving free XP for enemies... unless each town would have its special unit designed for mines improvement only (I mean this unit couldn't fight).
Yes, some kind of worker unit would be an option. Or you can assign population to resource sites. Maybe worker units can be armed or trained if necessary. That would be your 'human dwelling' in combination with a blacksmith or training buildings.
Quote:
Like the b), but why wouldn't the enemy simply capture the mine instead of staying between it and the town, forcing him to be stuck here ?
Because it's guarded too heavy. Or you are in a position where you can take control of the resource routes of more than one mine at the same time.
@ MattII
Quote:
At this point I'd like to make a suggestion (...)
Added.
Quote:
(...) so perhaps add a new option of 'periodical growth' (...)
That is meant with b). HoMM 4 system.
Quote:
I'll also make another suggestion, perhaps you could introduce a resource called 'training effort' (it costs 1 effort to produce a Peasant, but 15 for a Paladin), which would take the place of normal growth, so you could have say 50 Growth per day, which would get you 50 peasants, but only 3 paladins. You could also mix it in with other limitations (like being able to produce a maximum of 40 Peasants per day
Isn't that exactly the function that gold has at the moment? We just have heavy limitations.
Quote:
Option A has its place, but you'd need to make resources much cheaper (say 10 from a Crystal Mine, 20 from a Sawmill).
That wouldn't be a problem.
Perhaps I'll add an issue about resources later on.
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