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| Thread: An interesting fortress situation |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Jmaculas
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 21, 2009 03:08 PM |
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Quote:
Who needs to sacrifice gnolls when he has Monarchs vs shooters???
Week 2 Day 6 he only has like 4 wyverns hardly a unit against shooters. Medusas can stone too. So what am I missing? Splitting stacks to poison and tie them up so reinforcements come could work. Still flies are handy early.
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted October 21, 2009 04:39 PM |
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Quote:
Week 2 Day 6 he only has like 4 wyverns ......
Think on some maps you might find you missed a 0 there..closer to 40 rather than 4 on that day.
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xlnt
Known Hero
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posted October 22, 2009 09:46 AM |
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Edited by xlnt at 09:50, 22 Oct 2009.
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Quote:
Quote:
Week 2 Day 6 he only has like 4 wyverns ......
Think on some maps you might find you missed a 0 there..closer to 40 rather than 4 on that day.
hahah, good joke Tigris 
and very accurate - on the hive template i'd expect 30-80 wyverns on 1 2 6
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scythesong
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 24, 2009 11:46 PM |
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Quote:
Witches don't come with imba defense.
Merist does, with her Stoneskin.
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted October 29, 2009 01:26 AM |
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Leadership always was a totally underrated skill.
If there is something that can safe your day when you underestimated a fight vs. the map, it is morale.
Also it becomes much easier to mix your army, on randoms you can have many different sorts of food stacks, or Wyverns/Angels etc...
Getting those morale boosting arties is not a given thing at all, and as Angelito says they block your slots too.
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xlnt
Known Hero
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posted October 29, 2009 09:30 AM |
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Quote:
Leadership always was a totally underrated skill.
If there is something that can safe your day when you underestimated a fight vs. the map, it is morale.
Also it becomes much easier to mix your army, on randoms you can have many different sorts of food stacks, or Wyverns/Angels etc...
Getting those morale boosting arties is not a given thing at all, and as Angelito says they block your slots too.
Leadership is bad, second-hand skill
1. VS the AI, you can't trust it
2. for mixing Wyverns/Angels... Angels give + 1 morale, and having only Wyverns makes your moral neutral (if not fortress), so no problems there
3. morale boosting arties are not givven, but common
4. it doesn't block your slots - it fills them, if you have better arties to fill the slots - than you probably don't need morale
5. there are temporary + morale bonuses, which may not be a given, but are common too
6. you better not make your strategy around morale...
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted October 29, 2009 09:59 AM |
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Edited by angelito at 10:00, 29 Oct 2009.
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Quote:
1. VS the AI, you can't trust it
2. for mixing Wyverns/Angels... Angels give + 1 morale, and having only Wyverns makes your moral neutral (if not fortress), so no problems there
3. morale boosting arties are not givven, but common
4. it doesn't block your slots - it fills them, if you have better arties to fill the slots - than you probably don't need morale
5. there are temporary + morale bonuses, which may not be a given, but are common too
6. you better not make your strategy around morale...
This is all more or less correct what you are saying, but it is mostly theoretically. it reminds me of Platon, who once said to his students: "It is impossible to walk from this pillar here to the pillar over there, because you first have to walk half the distance, after that, you have to walk have the distance of the remaiing distance, after that again the half of the remaining distance.......and so on." One of his students just stood up and walked from one pillar to the other..
What I want to say is: Practice often overrules theory.
- Of course you can't "trust" moral, but you also can't trust resistance. But both could save your ass in decesive fights!
- Mixing creatures isn't interesting if you only take into account what kind of maps are played nowadays. if I think about Extreme 2 or Frozen dragons, mixing creatures is an essential factor!
- moral boosting artefatcs are common, right. But just check the saves of your last games...close to the end. How often did you have moral arties equipped in your slots?
- Only because I have good artefacts doesn't mean a moral bonus is not needed. Opponent could have BETTER artefatcs. So if my power stack gets a second chance to hit, fight could turn to my favor...
- How often do you find AND use temporary moral and luck bonusses? They're not always placed near a road, and you do not want to lose too much movement...
- Who makes his strategy around a single secondary skill? This does not count for leadership only, but also for earth magic and air magic. Maybe you never find slow or haste? Maybe opponent has red orb?
So if red orb is present, and no SoO on either side, moral and luck will be decesive factors.
While on the other hand, archery will hardly ever be a game breaker on fortress. Lizards deal very low damage. If they now deal 50% more, they kill 3 more imps
So I still stand to my opinion: I'd rather have moral than archery when playing fortress! Same goes with stronghold.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted October 29, 2009 10:11 AM |
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In my experience, I partly agree with that you should not be counting on the luck factor of a good morale or a resist to win the game, but in the end, for equal sided opponents, with pretty much equal armies, stuff like that is what'll be decisive, and I think one should consider the probability of winning given investing in so and such, in stead of going for the certain win, because that might be impossible.
Also for me, I like to mix creatures, and I go for leadership, not for the good morale, but to avoid bad morale, because in my experience, bad morale can often be much more dangerous than good morale (probably most often because those I play against suck ).
That's also why I almost never goes for luck (unless I've the red orb), because "negative" luck have no negative side effect.
Quote:
What I want to say is: Practice often overrules theory.
Isn't it only true, given the theory used does not cover the field of practice?
Like with Platon, his theory did not describe our, "the real", world (because he didn't take into consideration (at least I think he didn't) that with smaller and smaller steps, smaller and smaller time periods will go between each, and in the way it's often explained with the turtle and the rabbit, it seems to be assumed that the time periods always are equal, which is clearly false).
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scythesong
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 29, 2009 04:04 PM |
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Agreed, in my experience it's never healthy to depend on good luck/morale. It never hurts to have them as high as possible though, and bad luck/morale can be devastating.
Something bad can happen when your luck is negative, iirc. There's no animation for it but it shows in the battle info bar at the bottom.
Leadership and Luck can be useful if you have the extra slots for them. +Morale/Luck artifacts can be sometimes be common, sometimes not, and sometimes you'll want to equip better items.
You're just rephrasing what you quoted.
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Protos
Known Hero
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posted October 29, 2009 06:21 PM |
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Edited by Protos at 18:23, 29 Oct 2009.
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I just wanna add one thing here. Archery is not a such waste for fortress. Lizard warriors are probably one of the most underestimated units in the game. They have good HP and defense, they die tougher than marksmens or elves. With exp archery (bless is nice to have here as well) they can be a real threat, especially on templates like Balance, where high level dwell is not common to have, but you can count on 2nd fortress town and maybe some low level dwell(s) as well.
Usually, when fighting vs fortress, your opponent will try to kill hydras/wyverns/moos/basilisks first and maybe even will not try to attack/block lizards. But, when he receives one good punch, he will have one more unit to deal with. 
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted October 29, 2009 11:25 PM |
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Quote:
So I still stand to my opinion: I'd rather have moral than archery when playing fortress! Same goes with stronghold.
lol iŽd rather have mysticism than archery with fortress
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xlnt
Known Hero
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posted October 30, 2009 09:23 AM |
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Protos is 100% correct
I said, in correction of the previous poster, that morale better not be trusted in battles against the AI!! not against the opponent
Morale atries, temporary bonuses - rare, no argue - still you need them once - before the big bad battle.
Lizardmen are nice shooters, but i wouldn't take Archery, if not Wystan on a skirmish-like map. Skirmish boxes may offer you other shooters too, and in that case one should also consider finding a moral boost. But un-expected Archery may turn the tides on this fast template, where a moral on turn 1 may not happen.
In conclusion - leadership is nice - you better try without it
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted October 30, 2009 08:10 PM |
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There is no right or wrong, leadership was always a hot discussed topic...it won me games, and it was a waste in many games on the other hand.
The main point here is, a hero like Drakon is *not* bad just because he has leadership. But the lizard hero with archery *is* bad for fortress. Lizards play no role at all in most games, nice to have at start and mainly as fodder vs. shooters for example, but archery makes no difference.
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xlnt
Known Hero
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posted November 02, 2009 08:55 AM |
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Quote:
The main point here is, a hero like Drakon is *not* bad just because he has leadership. But the lizard hero with archery *is* bad for fortress. Lizards play no role at all in most games, nice to have at start and mainly as fodder vs. shooters for example, but archery makes no difference.
Now i understand you, well Wystan has won ME a lot of games - i remember using him on jebus SoD a lot, later i started to prefer Bron. On Skirmish and Balance he is a top choice too - imho. But lets put them on par with Dragon - shall we? Any means to get as fast as possible that first hive or cons is ok in my book
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fank0
Known Hero
There are no limits
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posted November 02, 2009 09:51 PM |
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Drakon opens hives better then Wystan, no doubt about it
For conservatories they are about equal.
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And you believed that?
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xlnt
Known Hero
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posted November 03, 2009 07:57 AM |
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lets see
Dragon would have 75 gnolls, 5-6 lizards + 2 Wyverns - 1/1/1
Wystan would have 30 lizards, 20 gnolls + 2 wyverns - all flies are reserved for scouts..
i like Wystan better - to open some way to resources - he looses less army using 2 fling tanks and shooters, instead of a big power stack. Wystan's army could more easily be used by a scout imho, because the + 1 speed of Dragon's gnolls is lost in this case.
I wouldn't go as far as to say Wystan is better - i like him better. Archery is definitely a secondary if not lost skill for this town..
What if Dragon finds 2 x 20 archers day 1? How many gnolls would you loose? How about 2 x 12 elfs? horde golems/zombies.. the list goes on
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted November 03, 2009 08:08 AM |
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30 lizards on Wystan day 1? lmaoo
How often did that happen?
Make it 20, and it sounds much more realistic. And yes, I've counted in the 9 lizzies from the dwelling already...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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uruk-hai
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 03, 2009 03:41 PM |
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Quote:
30 lizards on Wystan day 1? lmaoo
I think he means TE.
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xlnt
Known Hero
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posted November 04, 2009 09:17 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
30 lizards on Wystan day 1? lmaoo
I think he means TE.
oh, yes, sorry about that - i started thinking/doing the math on TE, switched to it 2 months ago
What we have on SoD (4-7)x3 = 12-21 from Wystan, +4-7 (if not Korbac - big chance) + 9, (was it not - in town, 50% chance?) = 25-37, max 44 with a second hero.
min is 4 + 4 (no 3-rdstack from Wystan)+ 0 (Korbac) + 9 (town) = 17, right?
(17+44)/2 = 61/2=30.5
Please, correct me if i'm wrong.
The big issue is having/not having lvl 2 pre-build - imho - a bug of SoD.
p.s. - this is a joke and it goes like this:
lmaoo - what is the second 'o' standing for? ;P
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted November 05, 2009 01:40 AM |
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30 Lizards or 75 Gnolls...iŽd prolly take the gnolls, as they are much better hitters vs. the important locations like Crypts week 1.
+ Gnoll Huts on the map are more common, and they are for free while paying for lizards is not that cool if the map isnŽt rich.
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