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| Thread: Problems with - and (hopefully) solutions to the current construction of threads |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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ohforfsake
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posted October 15, 2009 09:21 PM |
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Problems with - and (hopefully) solutions to the current construction of threads
In my opinion, threads aren't working optimal in relation to the purpose I imagine.
This purpose is of course depending on the forum we're looking at. In the VW, where I believe the purpose is entertainment, it seems to be working fine.
However in the OSM, where I believe the purpose is an attempt to increase our span of knowledge through challenging our own viewpoints via the arguments of others, it doesn't seem to work optimal.
My main problem is that, often a thread that starts out taking up a subject, getting lots of different response, which gets response back, etc. is all good, but often it develop into a long and sadly repitive debate between very few people, where I believe the interest is often very limited.
I think it'd be a good idea, if we could change the way threads are constructed, so in stead of a linear construction, where it goes as reply->reply->reply
we could maybe try a construction, where each debate (as each topic have lots of "sub debates") in the given thread, is ordered and seperated, something like this:
reply->reply->reply
|-> reply |->reply
I don't know if what I mean is clear, but otherwise I can try to explain it otherwise, most of all, I'd like this thread to be a thread, where you can debate a better way of constructing threads.
An example of something else, I'd very much like. As I believe most of us don't want to read 34 pages with maybe 5 posts of very good material, that the authors (or people interested in the debate in general) takes out the golden arguments and places it in a "collecting post", which works much like the overview of a book works, as you get the general idea of what's going on here, and you also get the gold right from the start.
Then someone can also easier challenge the "final conclusions" of any given debate, without having to search through pages of posts, where it often seem that a lot good knowledge goes to waste.
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william
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LummoxLewis
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posted October 15, 2009 09:24 PM |
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Quote:
My main problem is that, often a thread that starts out taking up a subject, getting lots of different response, which gets response back, etc. is all good, but often it develop into a long and sadly repitive debate between very few people, where I believe the interest is often very limited.
This has been going on for a very long time and I don't think you're the first to have mentioned it. Yes, it's annoying to see threads turn to **** because of repetitive debates which drag the thread so far from what it was originally about.
Maybe this time, some things might change and threads might actually be good again and not just have the same 3 or 4 people replying and maybe have more view points on a subject, which I'm sure would happen if threads didn't drag down into what you mentioned above.
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waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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Aculias
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posted October 15, 2009 09:31 PM |
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There is only so much you can do though.
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ohforfsake
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posted October 15, 2009 10:45 PM |
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Please note that I do not mind the debate in principe, what I mind is the structure, the linearity, that means any deep debate, or at least any debate that goes through several postings, clouds the thread, especially when less people contend to said debate.
Given this line represents the thread in general "-----------"
And each part of the line "-" is an invitation for debate in itself, then what I'd like is goin from this:
"-----------"
To this:
"[]
------------
|||||||| |||
| |||||| | |
| | | | |
| | |
| "
Where each "-" is still an invitation for debate, but each "|" is now the response and continuation of said debate.
Finally [] represents the idea of the "overview" where people can add, so those who do not wish to go through each debate, eventhough they're now singled out (because they can still get very long and repitive with the same arguments continued again and again), then the people who've interest in the debate in the first place, and wants more to join in, can add the arguments for each side in the overview. That way the overview is both like the overview of a book (you get to know pretty much, shortly, what the thread is about, and what arguments, conclusions, etc. there's from the different debates as well.) that way people can quickly find out, if they wish to participate in such any given debate, without having to have the interest in before actually being willing to join the debate.
Edit: Those | are supposed to unite into a vertical line, I hope that makes it more clear. 
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TheDeath
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posted October 15, 2009 10:52 PM |
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Quote:
Maybe this time, some things might change and threads might actually be good again and not just have the same 3 or 4 people replying and maybe have more view points on a subject, which I'm sure would happen if threads didn't drag down into what you mentioned above.
I'm pretty sure that people are using that excuse, but they wouldn't post anyway. It's not like they post in a new, fresh topic (not "polluted" yet), so this is all just an excuse for saying "I don't post in the OSM". What gets to me is why they don't admit it.
I mean if you don't post how do you expect the OSM to have more posters than "the 4 people" (I assume, in some debates, it includes Elodin, mvass, me, and JollyJoker inevitably)
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ohforfsake
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posted October 15, 2009 11:03 PM |
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As I have been trying to stress, I don't think the problem is, that it's the same people who posts again and again, I think the problem is, that when the debates gets long and clouds up the thread, it's often went from Beijing to New York and back again (I.E. they're done with the topic, and have debated much different stuff as well).
What I'd like, is the possibility for a non-linear thread form, where you post in regards to a given subject, and goes in one direction there, but maybe you want to post in regard to something else as well, and go in another direction there, then the people interested can join the direction they like. Likewise can they get an overview of the direction as suggested.
An example:
If you remember the thread I started with what defines life and immortality, then you'll see that often you e.g. corrected some wrong physics terms I used, now if we'd a pathway to go from there, so we could get a proper debate (if I had disagreed) for each section that's strictly not topic, then the thread would not have gotten clouded, like it ended up being (and already got after the first few pages).
Please remember, this is not a war of who's right, this is an attempt to actually develop insight in what interests you through the help of others (the OSM I mean), any help is appreciated, and it's expected both persons in any given debate is open for them to being wrong, given the right argument is presented, and both of them given another part gives an even better argument would admit to it, so even those who help, also learns something new, etc.
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TheDeath
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posted October 15, 2009 11:26 PM |
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Hmm the "I gave up on believing in God" thread was similar in its early stages. I have to admit, it was a bit too active, I couldn't keep track.
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Aculias
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posted October 15, 2009 11:48 PM |
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This solution is getting nowhere.
People are debating on a subject in one thread.
There of numorous threads,Forums & topics everywhere.
We cant force people to like something because of debates that seem like the same crap over & over.
Maybe we should try to force people to like the games that are played on here by having people not make a long reply.
Or maybe we can all go in the Glade & force people to make everyone join because the role play should involve everyone.
I think this thread is about you selfishly & not for everyone else.
People like this stuff.
They enjoy the debates just the way it is.
If you dont like it, then there are other solutions.
Ignore it.
Start your own thread with your own set of rules 7 hope people will join in the newly made debate.
Personally telling people to debate differently is rediculas.
This threas is worthless.
This whole topic should be closed.
This is about you & not the community which it should be.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Nebdar
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Generation N
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posted October 15, 2009 11:53 PM |
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Edited by Nebdar at 00:00, 16 Oct 2009.
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if only creator of thread would also be an modderator of the thread so he or she could create a new thread and cut and copy the posts and replys that go in an different direction..... That is the easyiest solution i can came up with
of course the modderator of all threads could be the Modder who is responsible for the whole forum... but that means more work and actuall readin of all posts.. or listening to advices of other readers
Aculias right about thing the OSM deabtes are like Real life debates so chaotic, developing and every one is equal in that debate so no one is controling it and says" we should stop discussing about this ...because.."
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ohforfsake
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posted October 16, 2009 12:27 AM |
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Quote:
if only creator of thread would also be an modderator of the thread so he or she could create a new thread and cut and copy the posts and replys that go in an different direction..... That is the easyiest solution i can came up with
I think that's partly a good idea, but I don't like to think of others being able to cut through what you've used a lot of time to write on, but moving it seems quite fair.
Quote:
of course the modderator of all threads could be the Modder who is responsible for the whole forum... but that means more work and actuall readin of all posts.. or listening to advices of other readers
Yes, I don't think you could get anyone to be a mod then, I think there's to be an interest in the thread, before anyone is interested in making the thread interesting by moving it, so it's in an orderly fashion.
Quote:
Aculias right about thing the OSM deabtes are like Real life debates so chaotic, developing and every one is equal in that debate so no one is controling it and says" we should stop discussing about this ...because.."
The problem with real life debates is that you can't remember every single word, and cannot always place the right relevance on them, if you do the same in a board, where every word is saved, and there's no prononciasions that can indicate how fast something is said, then it'll get clouded easily.
I think it would maybe be a good idea, like you say, if the creater have the ability to mod their own threads to some extend, but likewise that there maybe is some kind of preset debate form, so it already to begin with stands properly and nice.
I'd still very much like to see that every part of debate that evolves (as many different debates springs out of different subjects) gets their own linear curve down, in stead of following a linear curve as of now, which jumps between sub subjects and which, unless you follow intensely, you'll most likely loose interest at.
@All
But if there really is a problem with this kind of thread form, then please adress it precisely what it is, that I took examples from my own threads shouldn't really matter honestly, I could also take other threads if you'd like, showing how chaotic it's set up, simply because there's no option of placing it in order, every sub subject fiddled in, between all the rest of the sub subjects, of the general subject, clouded in repitive monologues from the same people of the specific time.
@Aculias: Huh? Certainly it's partly about me, I've experienced the problem, so have others I believe, it's fine if you don't like my idea of an solution, but please:
State why there's a problem with it
And if you have something better, please add it as well.
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william
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LummoxLewis
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posted October 16, 2009 12:34 AM |
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Also, another thing, threads get really ****ed up when quote wars start happening. Now, TheDeath and Mvass stopped this which was awesome, but ever since you've sorta been posting in the OSM, Ohforfsake, I've noticed you've started quoting A LOT and now it's starting again. That was a big problem with the OSM before and it drove away many people from it. Would be good to see posts being able to be made without mass quoting in them.
____________
~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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ohforfsake
Promising
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posted October 16, 2009 12:39 AM |
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Quote:
I've noticed you've started quoting A LOT and now it's starting again. That was a big problem with the OSM before and it drove away many people from it. Would be good to see posts being able to be made without mass quoting in them.
I agree, I often let myself get carried away, I don't think the mentality (people debating with interests) is the problem though, I just don't think the threads are properly designed for it (it makes it clouded, and too big to handle for those who aren't that interested).
But as long as the threads are as they're, and as I agree with you, I guess it'd probably be better, to try to stay on focus of the thread and not go into every little sub subject that presents itself, no matter how interesting it may be.
Yet I'd still prefer if we could change the system, so there'd be room for intense debates without these clouding the threads, btw. could anyone with information of how this board work answer if it's actually possible at all, and is it probable if valid arguments are presented?
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Aculias
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posted October 16, 2009 06:29 AM |
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That is BS.
No one likes to get their replies edited & I am one of them.
It dont stop some mods from doing it.
It happens alot more then I ever seen it.
Not naming any mod 
People should be able to express themselves, especially when it comes to debagtes with their beliefs & thoughts about a subject.
if thread makers had that power, I think we would lose alot of members.
Once again, thinking about yourself & not the community.
The more replies you make, the worst you sound.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Aculias
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posted October 16, 2009 06:33 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
@Aculias: Huh? Certainly it's partly about me, I've experienced the problem, so have others I believe, it's fine if you don't like my idea of an solution, but please:
State why there's a problem with it
And if you have something better, please add it as well.
I did.
Basically, you are trying to change the environment of the OSOM.
We talk about real life events on there.
There are many sensetive issues, big debates & serious topics.
editing someones reply which they believe they are correct or deleting it is basically giving that member the finger. Telling them they are crap & they should have their reply deleted or edited.
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ohforfsake
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posted October 16, 2009 08:11 AM |
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@Acuilas
No one would like that, you however missed the point of what I wrote.
I stated that I didn't want anything cut (edited/deleted), but I wouldn't mind moving for making it more orderly.
After reading this, please tell if your stand point have changed.
Also I still don't see where you wrote what's wrong with my first suggested system, if you'd mark that out for me, I'll respond to it.
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Aculias
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posted October 16, 2009 08:32 AM |
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I dont think anything should be done.
Some issues are just not interesting for some.
I been into alot of the debates in a subject or just dont feel like it.
It's hard because sometimes even the smallest replies can be important in a thread. Eventually the thread gets so big.
Most of us has read it all from start to finish.
i mean threads dont go to page 31 in one day.
You usually got time to read it.
It's alot of work for mods to pick a selected great posts.
What are they supposed to do with it, make a thread for that subject & post what a person said that was a great post?
I guess there are some options but this has gone on since HC started.
You really got to be here from start to finish when the thread starts.
Usually there will be say 5-10 replies a day.
You got time to read it.
I just dont see the logic of worrying about it.
A solution that has been done is to start the thread over.
Basically the new blood (noobs) get to have their own posts in the same subject.
Let the golden age thread die down.
Screen through the thread & read the long replies or see who replied to it & read that.
I just think it's too much work for something that is not that important.
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ohforfsake
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posted October 16, 2009 08:57 AM |
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Quote:
It's hard because sometimes even the smallest replies can be important in a thread. Eventually the thread gets so big.
Exactly, and to add:
Quote:
A solution that has been done is to start the thread over.
Basically the new blood (noobs) get to have their own posts in the same subject.
As it is now, like you actually write yourself, a lot of the great stuff goes to waste, and the new blood will either repeat the olds mistakes, not even develop as far, or miss great opportunities simply because those golden messages from the past aren't valid enough.
An example: Imagine I've great information about a very interesting topic, we've a great debate about it, and all learns something new, etc.
Then several years later, the thread is on page 160 and long forgotten, someone else starts a similar debate, this person is actually able to redevelop the information from the previous thread, if this information is present, however no one knows about it, and you can say the new blood came in to late and a great opportunity was wasted.
On the other hand, it could be just reversed, the old blood came in here to soon, and left again, missing great information from the new blood.
If we order threads, their arguments and conlcusions, and also let every sub subject be able to be debated out, without clouding the thread, through other lines, then you'll always be able to be up to date with the forums current knowledge, and you'll always know from the start if you've something to add or not (through the "overview"-idea).
Quote:
It's alot of work for mods to pick a selected great posts.
What are they supposed to do with it, make a thread for that subject & post what a person said that was a great post?
I never wanted the mods to do it, but the people interested in the thread, which I believe the suggestion has been all along.
Also just let it redirect down to some isolated debates or something like that, no need to start a new thread for it.
Quote:
I just think it's too much work for something that is not that important.
That's your subjective opinion, and not constructive. Let's keep it at arguments through why it's a good/bad idea.
Most of all I'm still interested in, if there's any likelyhood for it happening at all.
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angelito
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posted October 16, 2009 08:59 AM |
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Instead of the posters changing their behaviour, we should change the system, so the "bad" behaviour can be served better?
I'm sure this would work like a charm
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mvassilev
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posted October 16, 2009 09:05 AM |
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Quote:
Instead of the posters changing their behaviour, we should change the system, so the "bad" behaviour can be served better?
I'm sure this would work like a charm
Of course, that depends on the kind of changes.
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ohforfsake
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posted October 16, 2009 09:07 AM |
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Quote:
Instead of the posters changing their behaviour, we should change the system, so the "bad" behaviour can be served better?
I wouldn't it call bad behaviour, but yes that's my point.
It's much like society:
What would you like most of all, a system where there's room for everyone (i.e. what was earlier bad behavior, is no so no longer). Short: Making it impossible.
Or that we try to change the ways of people (newcomers and oldies alike).
Short: Making it unlikely.
I know I'd always prefer impossible rather than unlikely, and then there'd also be room for going into the subtle detail, without ruining the debate for those who maybe have been busy the last 14 days and haven't been able to read up.
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