|
| Thread: The problem with the AI of Heroes 3 | |
|
ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
posted October 22, 2009 11:10 AM |
|
|
The problem with the AI of Heroes 3
I've talked a bit about it in other threads, so I think it'd be a good idea if we've a thread for it in the first place.
This is a thread for noted problems with the AI of heroes 3, and suggested solutions. Mostly it's about when you play against the computer, that it makes some horrible choice which means it looses battles, which otherwise would've been won, if played properly.
It's not like the AI does not use all spells however, at least I believe I've seen it use most spells, it's just that it doesn't choose very wisely, it often summons elementals in times where there's no need, and it's only wasting mana, and other times it doesn't seem to care that its entire team gets blinded, eventhough it has been casting anti magic not many battles ago, etc.
Also, I tried to play a game, where I got a hero up on stats that was about 20/50/50/40, got some arties, took 2 phoenixes splitted up, and then I just sat in my town waiting for the computer to attack, and otherwise buying familiars.
So the computer attacked me as expected, though after very long time, and with an army containing about 80 gold dragons, 50 phoenixes and a lot other units in the first attack. I won the battle, simply because the computer not only decided to use improper spells, it did also decide to let the hero to lead this army to be a hero with the stats of 1/3/2/2.
The second attack was more mild, about 30 ghost dragons and 20 phoenixes, though with a hero with stats around 15 in all in average.
Then the next with a hero with an even lesser army, but stats with about 20 in all, this battle however was easier, as the computer attacked way to soon.
Anyway, I believe my point is that, the AI have some serious troubles, and I want this thread to be a place, where you can post your ingame experiences with the AI like this:
The AI did the following mistake in the following situation:
The AI should have done it like this in stead of:
Etc.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted October 22, 2009 11:18 AM |
|
|
The AI had always trouble, no matter the game. Try vs human to get full satisfaction or get good single maps where AI is properly boosted with the right bonuses. Giving all spells to the AI is not the thing to do because he does not make a "wise choice".
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
|
|
posted October 22, 2009 12:29 PM |
|
Edited by Shares at 12:29, 22 Oct 2009.
|
The biggeset problem is that it seems to do everything randomly. It chooses which hero carries the biggest army randomly. It throws spells randomly. It chooses skills randomly. At least it would seems like that. Making a table of what skills will fit with the other and what hero type wouldnät have been that hard to create when making the game and it would greatly increase the power of their heroes.
Sometimes you meet fighter class heroes that have a lot of spellcasting skills. I've met barbarian without spellbooks with expert intelligence. Or heroes choosing navigation on maps without water.
The other problems though might be a lot harder.
____________
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted October 22, 2009 12:33 PM |
|
|
You should then try WOG, as the AI bonuses and behavior can be controlled by the mapmaker, thus the battles are much harder but still behind human possibilities.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
|
|
posted October 22, 2009 12:39 PM |
|
|
I've played WoG for a couple of years now I haven't noticed. Mostly because I haven't made any maps for WoG and I mostly play random generated maps. And I would presume that the mapmaker does not change the settings when it's just a random map. But I will look into it, thanks!
____________
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted October 22, 2009 12:42 PM |
|
|
Random maps are for multiplayer, and AI alone can't handle them, WoG or not. Single custom maps can do it, because the AI can be "told" that if human does this, counter with that.
All WOG can improve in a random map is possibility of choosing alliances at start, so you can set all AI to ally vs you and improved experience gathering for AI (200% more than human). Thats all, but it is already not that bad.
Someone could make a general script for random maps where AI gets perfect skills and bonuses, but then you will never win. See the map "The last Hope" by Fnord for that. If you win that at 200% then you can be proud.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted October 22, 2009 01:06 PM |
|
|
What I would want, is that the AI is still influenced by the same luck factors as the real player, but follows a list of decisions, that's true for most circumstances.
Also the AI should never know what the player does, unless have being spotted the player, etc.
I know threating the AI as a human makes it tougher, but I'd also like it to be realistic (and not like Heroes 4, where the AI ignores scouting completely, but everytime I come around with my stealth char, the AI buys troops in the towns, what would be more realistic would be taht the AI no matter what always bought troops enough to deal with the expected stealth char at the certain time, like a regular player would, so it doesn't become poor due to buying troops to early, neither looses because a lack of troop).
An example for what could need improvement at least in the version I play, the AI never seems to open topias before very late, maybe in the end of month 2 or something like that, players who know about force field tricks, some very clever tricks thanks to these boards, can open these topias in week 2-3.
Learn this tactic to the AI, and you'll already see some challenge I believe, a lot of other things could be added as well.
Also what I think is important, is that the AI must "remember" what it has learned from previous battles, if I have shackles, you don't send a armageddon/surrender troop, and my main is based upon armageddon/surrender, then you send in a faster unit, or a lot of fire immune units to preassure me back, or to take me out completely.
These are just few examples, I think the best thing would be, if we'll had some common mod we all could write on when we found these "flaws" of the AI, and in that way, make a list of doings that would make the AI a very good opponent, yet still affected by the same luck factors as the rest of us.
Also for known maps, the AI should of course also be like it knows the map, if you want it.
Anyway it's maybe a bit much to wish for, thanks for reading it anyhow.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted October 22, 2009 01:12 PM |
|
|
Quote:
some very clever tricks thanks to these boards, can open these topias in week 2-3.
There are no clever tricks. Players understood that AI is bad fixed and found cheap tricks to exploit this. Then named them "clever tricks" but it is nothing but exploiting a flaw.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted October 22, 2009 02:10 PM |
|
|
Every trick then is a flaw. Even every trick a magician like David Copperfield does is a flaw. A flaw of the beholder.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted October 22, 2009 02:24 PM |
|
|
Now what I don't understand is that bad placed guards must be fought (cheat if you don't) but still the Utopia "clever" trick is accepted, which gives a huge advantage to a few races. Not to mention other creatures banks and such. So one flaw is not accepted, while the other is happily exploited. Utopia was meant to be a huge fight, now it is nothing but a joke due to poor programming.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
Protos
Known Hero
|
|
posted October 22, 2009 02:37 PM |
|
|
In every competition one wins because other is making mistakes. If AI cannot learn to play better from its own mistakes, then it is not our fault. 
|
|
ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted October 22, 2009 03:54 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
some very clever tricks thanks to these boards, can open these topias in week 2-3.
There are no clever tricks. Players understood that AI is bad fixed and found cheap tricks to exploit this. Then named them "clever tricks" but it is nothing but exploiting a flaw.
I can't say for the general, though I assume as you and Angelito write it, the definition of a trick is actually a flaw of the opponent, anyhow I think then you could either let topias be as they're, and learn the AI to attack through proper tactic, or change the mechanics of neutral creatures/enemies as well, so no one can open these things too early.
Just as long as it gets equal advantage for both AI and player.
Quote:
In every competition one wins because other is making mistakes. If AI cannot learn to play better from its own mistakes, then it is not our fault.
No, that's true, but it sure is boring in my opinion and also why I very seldom in the first place play against the AI, simply because I've to limit myself to get a challenge, and if I limit myself to much, I end up having to pick between the choice of clear win, or the choice of clear loss, which becomes obvious.
|
| |
|
|
