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| Thread: Better Ability vs. Better Starting Skills |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Berny-Mac
Promising
Legendary Hero
Lord Vader
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posted November 17, 2009 01:12 AM |
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Poll Question:
Better Ability vs. Better Starting Skills
So here's the thing...you got a choice between some of the two best heroes in this one faction.
Example: Kaspar vs. Naadir.
Here's the thing, Kaspar has a more powerful special ability, but Naadir starts off with summoning and dark magic. Who do you choose?
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Skyrim RP? YES!
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted November 17, 2009 01:48 AM |
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While I not neccesarily agree with your ranking in this particular case I'd mostly go with the Hero that has the better special since it'll pay off a lot more in the final battle. The only exceptions are Heros that start with a very unique skill for their class like Lethos, Kythra, Razzak, etc. depending on what you're facing I'd usually always go with those over a guy with a good special, since the "good starting skills" you're referring too usually have a high chance to pop up during levling anyways.
But my thoughts may not be 100% good advice since I only play duel maps and thus have no idea how valuable "good" starting skills may be (eventhough I still think my point stands in theory).
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 17, 2009 02:32 AM |
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Kaspar has a better special? Since when?
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Berny-Mac
Promising
Legendary Hero
Lord Vader
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posted November 17, 2009 02:37 AM |
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For arguments sake, lets say he does. It's just an example, Elvin.
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Skyrim RP? YES!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 17, 2009 02:46 AM |
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It is impossible to answer such a question by talking in general. Typically reason to prefer a hero for his skills is when you plan to rush(warmachines/destructive/logs) but again that's debatable. For instance Ossir would be super fast regardless of skills while Telsek's special is kinda irrelevant since you mostly depend on his machines for creeping.
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pei
Famous Hero
Fresh Air.
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posted November 17, 2009 03:55 AM |
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I stick with naadir, if u play well then some times there wont be retaliations to un-summoned units. His special is pretty good for me plus i can rush to 3rd lvl spells. Necro heroes are all nice imo, and the strategy behind each one is not difficult to discover. I dont like playing Vladimir and never used Raven.
Pei out.
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El_Chita
Known Hero
Actually, my name is El Chita
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posted November 17, 2009 11:28 AM |
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I think it's easier to compare Telsek and Grumsh(Kragh), because here we have exactly the situation Elvin described: Telsek is better in rushing, but Grumsh has the better special.
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rottenvenetic
Known Hero
Derusticated
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posted November 17, 2009 05:49 PM |
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Why do you call Kragh Grumsh?
Anyway, in this case the comparison is actually the other way around IMO. Kasper has a weaker speciality - Naadir's ghosts can be a backbreaker at the end of a close fight. This makes him dangerous - but he starts with dark and summoning which are all too easy to get as necro and offer nothing as starting skills.
But Kasper starts with war machines, which is a rare sight for necro, making him a great choice for hitting towns (ballista is obviously not an option), especially if you can actually forget tent and get both brimstone rain and tremors.
So if I want the special, it's Naadir I'd pick of the two, and if I want a good and hard to get starting skill, Kasper's my lich.
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In the darkness, a blind man is the best guide; in an age of madness, look to the madman to lead the way.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 17, 2009 05:59 PM |
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does someone use orson?
I've never played raven I think but she seems great if you can get mass curse.
that being said, helmar with mass haste seems better.
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pei
Famous Hero
Fresh Air.
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posted November 17, 2009 06:07 PM |
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I build him to defend, not to raise & use it to creep when the dark energy pool is dry. 
Obviously not my main hero.
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ebbafan
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 17, 2009 06:38 PM |
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i think it kind of depends on the map that you are playing; i've played both naadir and kaspar, and i felt that kaspar is somewhat overpowered precisely because of his special.
there was one map i was playing where the faction was haven; i hired kaspar and used him as a main; i lost 0 haven troops, had a small undead army got to like 29th level and mentored out some super haven heroes.
on a side note maeve and klaus are really good endgame haven heroes, but irina with vampirism and unstoppable charge/battle griffins and sorcery/dark/light can take on whole armies by herself. 
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rottenvenetic
Known Hero
Derusticated
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posted November 17, 2009 07:30 PM |
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Kasper's tent can look like a big pain, but is it not correct that it only gets 3 shots? It will heal or hurt for 345 HP in each at level 29, which means its impact in a large battle will be small.
That's unless the tent works with the ammo cart; in my VERY limited war machine experience it seems that is not the case.
As for Orson, I favor him above all the other heroes in the game, excluding, probably, the more overpowered campaign characters, but this was about Kasper and Naadir.
Not only does Orson start with the very valuable Defense even though it is easy for Necro to get, but he improves Zombies a lot (as 2nd level units they profit greatly from the extra attack and defense points). I very much like the Rot Zombie with its festering aura and extreme toughness for a level 2 unit (Blood maidens and upgrades may have similar HP and be much better with regards to everything else, except they are cca. 3 times fewer). I can also relate to his leadership philosophy, except the uselessness of thinking.
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In the darkness, a blind man is the best guide; in an age of madness, look to the madman to lead the way.
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pei
Famous Hero
Fresh Air.
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posted November 17, 2009 08:24 PM |
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Uh...u sure love zombies...i kind of love them with orson only but still they are a slow motion punching bag...imo necro heroes whose special is a creature are easier to use than any other as boosted creatures can always be raised and not worry much about their losses before great battles.
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Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
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posted November 17, 2009 10:36 PM |
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This has become a bit of a necro strategy discussion, so I feel rather comfortable to offer some insight here.
Naadir will always be better than Kaspar. Unless you guys are playing on small badly developed Ubisoft maps, which will allow your opponents to be knocking on your doors week 2, war machines is simply not made for necros. You will not be wanting to hear about Kaspar as a main hero in any other kind of game.
Naadir offers not only two great starting skills but also an ability that turns him one of the fastest creepers within this already agressive faction. The ghosts raised by Naadir will be blocking shooters, turtling your skellies and whatnot. There is not even place for a lenghty discussion here. What is the weak spot of Naadir? Predictablity. When you pick up Naadir as your main hero, your opponents will know exactly what to wait for, mighty phoenixes, crystals, wasp swarms plus mass slow, confusion, frenzy and puppet master. Knowing that, they will set their heroes up exactly to counter you.
A hero such as Orson, although much less creep-oriented, will keep the element of surprise until the final clash. The opponent will not know what to expect. You could show up as a dark-only caster, or summon-only, lucky-striker or hell, even destructive in case you get the proper conditions.
And IMHO concealing your strategy with less specific starting skills is a strenght in itself, which makes Orson much more versatile then Naadir, and sometimes a worthy pick.
Wolfs
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ebbafan
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 17, 2009 11:10 PM |
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i do not deny that naadir's ability is strategically outstanding, but to say that he is always better than kaspar is a stretch, especially in the early/midgame. (and who gives a $&*^ about endgame necro anyway? you are most likely dead meat by then, lol  )
necromancers have a 1 knowledge in the beginning, which means that you can only cast raise dead once. if you are unlucky, and this happens frequently, your knowledge might be stuck at a 2 or 3 or even a 1 for a long time. that means that unless there are always magic wells around or you enjoy walking back to your castle or don't mind losing many troops in battle, having a backup healer would be great and allow you to regain mana via motn w/o having to cast raise dead.
kaspar can easily get exp war machines tent(outsized early game power) = 3 good extra heals/raise deads until motn, higher knowledge from arties and skill perks become available and this is very good for preserving troops. typically kaspar only has to return to the castle once to get some spells, otherwise its continuous creeping; add logistics and enlightenment to the mix and you have a super-hero in short order.
and as for unpredictability - mentoring is the real way to get that and tons of de points to boot.
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Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
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posted November 17, 2009 11:29 PM |
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Hi there Ebba,
I hardly agree on that one. A good percentage of times you will get MotN wich will lighten up the mana problem, especially when combined with land mines, a spell that makes Naadir a walking nightmare from week one. Besides, eternal servitude already does the job o sparing you of that few dead units (which are seldom a real concern).
Healing tent and ballista are just useful in very early games. Thats why you rarely see Kaspar beeing used on balanced multiplayer maps or ToH. Mid game is already to hot for him.
I dont know what you call late game, but necros being always dead meat is a false concept. My 5-7 week Naadir is not something to take lightly... trust me.
About mentoring: in most games I play its banned anyway.
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pei
Famous Hero
Fresh Air.
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posted November 17, 2009 11:59 PM |
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Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
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posted November 18, 2009 12:27 AM |
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I think Ravenīs inate ability is not bad, but even on high levels the defense decrease is not a very determinant factor. It can be specially cruel against inferno, which has a broad spectrum of damage and low defense per se. Thats a situation in which I consider Raven to be particularly effective, and would gladly use her.
Otherwise I think there are better picks out there.
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted November 18, 2009 01:03 PM |
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Necro is a very lucky faction in a sense that almost every hero's special is ok.
Personally I find Naadir one of my favourite, tough Kaspar'rush on small map or rush and mentoring on longer maps is quite playable strategy. However you need to be careful with mentoring since the new main hero needs to visit all boosters as Kaspar does, which is not that easy to do.
With Naadir my experince is that AI more frequently use only one stack to avoid "ghosting", and this is a huge benefit for creeping (No need to waste hero turns on putting motn to each unit, you can surround your shotters, and will take longer to ruin the castle), so creeping wise Kaspar does not have that huge advantage.
When I started multiplayer I played hourglass mainly, and sq told me that on hg Orson is the best hero. If it reaches def 25, its very hard to win against him. I had doubts that time, but nowadays I would surely agree that Orson is one of the best.
Necro (despite of some strange arena/duel map experience) is a magic faction, who needs taff army to survive untill the hero's spells gets effective inpact. For this necro needs defense. And for this necro needs incredible amount of taff zombies. If you creep or fight you will realize that nobody attack the zombies. They attack skellies, ghost, vampires anything but not the zombies. I have seen many battles when only zombies remain, and that was enough to win.
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El_Chita
Known Hero
Actually, my name is El Chita
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posted November 18, 2009 02:14 PM |
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Quote:
Why do you call Kragh Grumsh?
In my (german) version his name is Grumsh. In the skillwheel he's called Kragh, so I mentioned it.
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