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ohforfsake
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Initiate
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posted July 05, 2010 08:42 PM |
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The man is stuck in his own twisted personal little world based on prejudice, generalization, and dogmas
To some degree, aren't we all? We all measure the world throughout our life and upon that draws conclusions. As time goes and we might get more 'learned' we may still believe in the conclusions of the old times. As its gets harder and harder for us to accept new knowledge as we require more and more certainity [due to getting more 'learned'], it's not hard to imagine that people in general would get stuck in their own little world view, where conclusions of the past are hard to challenge, because that's what their entire life a build upon, these are not, like new knowledge, regarded unknown until proven otherwise, rather true until proven otherwise, but with more and more requiring proofs needed.
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Fauch
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posted July 06, 2010 04:15 AM |
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Unfortunately, may Europeans reject those principles in favor of being owned by the State. For them freedom seems to be too frightening and they wish for someone to tell them what to think, what to eat, ect.
because american people aren't like that? 
it is frightening that many people still believe than always producing more is the solution to raise standard of living, happiness, etc...
so far it has led to the near extinction of many natural resources, a minority of countries pillaging the majority of less fortunate ones, legions of zombies (partly because of fordism)who think they contribute to the society thanks to their work, while they actually contribute to its destruction by neglecting more important values, a minority of dominant people who do their best to debilize and manipulate the population, so they can keep using them as puppets to serve their egoist interests, and a world where your importance is defined by what you possess, life has lost all meaning and the only important thing for many people is to always get more while they know it isn't possible.
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mvassilev
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posted July 06, 2010 05:26 AM |
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Because those starving people with tattered clothes are so happy, right?
o wait
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JollyJoker
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posted July 06, 2010 12:20 PM |
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I didn't read Fauch mentioning anything about starving and running bout in tattered clothes. If I didn't lose the ability to read, he's questioning the wisdom of getting and producing ever and ever more, not getting and producing anything at all, so there you go again and have no point, Mvass.
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shyranis
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posted July 06, 2010 02:56 PM |
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Because those starving people with tattered clothes are so happy, right?
o wait
Hm... that seems to be how the world works. We export our suffering to other countries.
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mvassilev
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posted July 06, 2010 07:10 PM |
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Either a nation produces or it ends up a starving war zone.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Elodin
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posted July 06, 2010 07:15 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 19:20, 06 Jul 2010.
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@JJ
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That's 100% American Fascism, complete with Historic lies, twists untruths and general demonizaation of "socialism" and European ideas of politics and society.
A shame, really.
It is sad that some people who love to point a bony finger at America and say "Wicked, evil capitalist pig!!! You once owned slaves!!! YOU ARE EVIL!!!" can't face up to Europe's history or what socialism is. Oh, I don't have to demonize socialism as most people recognize that thievery is wrong.
@Moonlith
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Gee imagine that, trying to stick up for the less fortunate What an abominable ide-- Wait, isn't that what christianity teaches?
Sorry, the Bible teaches charity, not socialism. Charity is a person nobily and voluntarily giving to someone in need of his own free will. Charity is not the government stealing from one person to give to another. Theft is not noble.
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You do realize argueing with Elodin is pointless right? The man is stuck in his own twisted personal little world based on prejudice, generalization, and dogmas; his statements have no basis whatsoever and can simply be dismissed as such.
It is not my mind that is prejudiced and twisted. I have simply presented facts. I'm sorry if your world makes no allowance for facts that run counter to Marxist dogma.
@Shyranis
It is interesting what you have chosen to call socialist programs.
The Constitution makes no provision for welfare payments to individuals. All welfare programs run by the federal government are unconstitutional.
Social Security is a forced retirement/disability program and as such is not Constitutional. Each worker has a social security tax taken out of every paycheck and a worker's social security payment when he retires is based on how much he made.
Medicare is similar to social security in that a Medicare tax is withheld from each paycheck of workers and is not Constitutional. I think there are people who have never paid Medicare tax who can draw from the system.
The EPA is not constitutional, at least with the powers it has now. Obama is using it to bypass Congress to establish environmental regulations. Only Congress has the power to pass such regulations, and even then it would be in violation of the Tenth Amendment so it would not be able to LEGITIMATELY pass such regulations. All similar government organizations such as the Federal Trade Commission are also not constitutional. They violate due process and separation of powers principles.
The federal government has no Constitutional authority to be involved in education and so the Department of Education is not Constitutional.
NASA is a matter of national security as as such is contitutional.
@Fauch
It is indeed frightening that some people think it is ok to steal from others whether with a gun or with a politician. Both can be potent weapons. Of course a minority of dominant people in Marxist societies, the party leaders, live much higher on the hog than their zombie disciples. It is sad that in a socialist nation one's worth is defined by the value the State-god assigns to you. Life apart from the State has no meaning and no rights exist apart from the whims of the State-god.
Socialism is parasitic in nature. Socialists believe they have a right to live at the expense of the hard labors of others rather than by the sweat of their own brow. They think it is perfectly justifiable for the hard earned labors of others to be stolen and transferred to them by the puppet masters in charge of the socialist State. Somehow the socialist thinks he is more deserving of the fruit than the person who worked to raise it.
Socialism is the government sanctioned theft of goods, time, and effort--of human life itself. The political parasite Socialism is more dangerous than any physical parasite.
Socialism illustrated
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JollyJoker
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posted July 06, 2010 08:47 PM |
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most people recognize that thievery is wrong.
True. That's the reason why there has developed something called socialism. And incidentally that's the main reason why the US and their economic imperialism has made them so many enemies.
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The Constitution makes no provision for welfare payments to individuals. All welfare programs run by the federal government are unconstitutional.
It seems to be pretty obvious that a constitution that wouldn't allow to care for those in need would somewhat fail one of its objectives, but
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I think there are people who have never paid Medicare tax who can draw from the system.
this shows that in spite your claim of being a Christian you haven't grasped one of its basic ideas - not to mention what society is all about. You do not always have to put something in, to get something out, and being envious about it or blurting "unjust" is pretty telling, and not in a positive way. Thankfully we are through the age of people milling in the streets, begging for alms and handouts - we can actually do better than that. How well charity is working is easily to be seen when you count the amount of people starving to death in the world.
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The federal government has no Constitutional authority to be involved in education and so the Department of Education is not Constitutional.
Which is of course nonsense. The federal government has EVERY authority - it has, for example, the authority to order teaching the constitution of the US of A and its values in school, which obviously makes a lot of sense. More precisely, it has the right to forbid all teachings that are unconstitutional.
Which is just an example.
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It is indeed frightening... blablabla... in Marxist societies ... blablabla ... in a socialist nation one's worth is defined ... blablabla ... Life apart from the State has no meaning ... blablabla
Socialism is... blablabla ... socialists believe ... blablabla ... at the expense of ... blablabla... They think ... blablabla ... by the puppet masters... blablabla ... Somehow the socialist thinks... blablabla... Socialism is ... blablabla ... theft... blablabla ... dangerous... blablabla
Frightening is indeed the amount of intimate knowledge Elodin the expert has about Marxist societies, socialist nations, life in them, what socialist believe and think and everything else pertaining to socialists and their society. Amazing.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 06, 2010 09:50 PM |
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Well, let me add something: what theft exactly is.
Germany's current government is utter right: a coalition of the the Free Democratic Liberals who are everything Mvass embraces and the so called Christian Democratic Party, the conservatives and what would be the Republicans in the US.
One of their promises was to lower taxes and leave people more of their money in their wallets. Germany has a medical insurance system which is financed half by the insured and half by the employers (making the cost of labor expensive).
There has been an added insurance for teeth replacements since some years, and currently the payments have been:
14.9% of gross income, with 14% being split between employed and employers, and .0% to be payed by the employed alone.
No matter what you think about that, there has been made a decision now which will increase payments for both parts by .3% EACH, to 15.5% - with the addition that from now on the employers's part is frozen to 7.3% and all further increases will have to be paid by the employed.
That's theft - the government takes money and hands it to insurances, pharma corps, drugstores and, of course, doctors.
It's not a socialist government which does it. It's a RIGHT WING LIBERAL government, workimng for big money, stealing from what is called "the middle class".
See, Elodin, THAT is the difference between your opinion and reality: ALL so-called democratic governments steal from the middle class to give to the UPPER class. Sure, they are SEEMINGLY handing out money to the poor as well, welfare, medicare, you name it - but the thing is that THE POOR have to SPEND the money immediately, and since they get only a minimum it's clear for what and ins whose pockets the money is actually rolling.
If they were SOCIALIST governments, they would LEAVE THE MIDDLE CLASS ALONE - and STEAL FROM THE RICH to feed the poor.
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Fauch
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posted July 07, 2010 02:41 AM |
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Socialism is parasitic in nature. Socialists believe they have a right to live at the expense of the hard labors of others rather than by the sweat of their own brow. They think it is perfectly justifiable for the hard earned labors of others to be stolen and transferred to them by the puppet masters in charge of the socialist State. Somehow the socialist thinks he is more deserving of the fruit than the person who worked to raise it.
Socialism is the government sanctioned theft of goods, time, and effort--of human life itself. The political parasite Socialism is more dangerous than any physical parasite.
you could say the same about capitalism which gives lots of power to some corporations (I guess it is the case in socialism too)
either governments dominate everything, or corporations.
there are 2 problems :
-setting a system with some specific rules doesn't work. if people were robots and could be programmed as the rulers want, it would. that's also the reason why they manipulate people and subtly remove liberties without most people noticing it. that's the principle of totalitarianism, turn them into robots so they will do what the system expect from them without even thinking. except that now, it isn't the deed of a dictator, but of multiple corporations. coca cola? mac donalds? google? microsoft?
the system being the society of consumption.
-you have to deal with egoist people. normally, that's what the rules are for, but it never stops all those people. moreover, too much restrictions can make people unhappy and bring more problems. rules might be useful, but aren't enough. a good education is more important. (note : the danger is a solution is to educate people so that they turn into robots, so that can be really dangerous as well. people should keep their liberty and ability to think while accepting to not abuse them)
the way the society of consumption do it is turning people into robots so that they can make it work and use a lot of repression and pressure on people who don't want to participate.
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mvassilev
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posted July 07, 2010 03:06 AM |
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Fauch:
The critical difference is, government forces people to do whatever it wants, while people are free to choose what businesses to shop at.
JJ:
Taking more from the poor than from the rich =/= stealing from the poor and giving to the rich, because the rich are still being stolen from.
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Doomforge
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posted July 07, 2010 11:19 AM |
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JJ, don't bother talking to Elodin, he'll respond by more nonsense about socialist murdering people or eating embryos or whatever.
While the only thing socialism DOES is setting another tax - which purpose is to help the poorest in a form of benefits. Nothing more, nothing less.
Unless Elodin lives in a taxless country, he should really shut his mouth. And we all know he doesn't. So, why in the holy mother of **** did he pick on the tax that actually serves some real PURPOSE towards people? Elodin, just stick to criticizing taxes that fund your super-duper country another Abrams tank. It's meant to kill people, contrary to the tax socialistic system adds, which meant to help them.
I guess it doesn't bother you to pay taxes for things that don't involve helping people. The government stealing from you for any other purpose than helping poor is perfectly ok.
Which is hypocrisy. Income tax, Property Tax, Sales Tax = good, Social Security and Medicare taxes (which are socialist by default) = bad. This is sooo Elodin.
So, to Elodin. Your army is funded of tax dollars. America's Army Cost Taxpayers $32.8 Million per year. That money is stolen from you by the government exactly in the way you criticize. Yet you don't object at all, despite knowing that a) they steal from you b) it funds more tanks that serve no other purpose than destruction. Think about it. Unless you start posting that the army should wait for you to donate them and not steal from you, I'll consider you a horrible hypocrite.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 07, 2010 11:37 AM |
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Mvass, you are not understanding the system. 
Socialism - a living and breating socialism would want to close the gap between the rich and the poor (it wouldn't want to make everything equal - that idea is pretty long gone now); in practise that would mean on one hand more governmental control for development in relevant areas, which would mean a more thorough testing of new materials, drugs, foodstuffs and so on, before allowing production, and on another a different tax structure with LOW general sales taxes (if any), NO sales taxes on basic foodstuffs, clothing and so on, HIGHT sales taxes on luxury and high cost articles (and when I say HIGH I mean HIGH), while the income tax would see a higher tax-free basic amount, with taxes getting higher in increments. To give an example, you'd have to pay NO taxes on the first $24.000 you'd earn, 10% on the next 12.000, 15% on the next, then at some point going to 50% for the money you earn from 100.000-200.000, until you might have to pay 80 or 90% from everything above, say $5.000.000 a year.
The actual system around the capitalist world is - with small differences - completely different, though:
1) Luxury taxes are mostly missing or too low, if there are any, which is as such suspicious: If you are able to pay $100 for a bottle of wine, you should be able to pay $200 as well; if you can buy a car for $250.000, you can pay a lot more than that; if you can buy a 10.000.000 luxury villa, well...
2) tax-free income is too low - the tax-free stuff is barely covering what is absolutely necessary for survival, while on the other hand sales taxes are rather high and on basically everything - which is suspicious as well.
3) Income tax rates are MUCH too low for the really high incomes.
Is someone really profiting from the ACTUAL system?
a) the poor: they don't pay anything, but get instead a minimum amount, so you might say, YES (they could be worse off).
b) The somewhat better than poor to earning a good living. They have to pay ALL the taxes there are, so they just pay and you might say, NO
c) The rich; they have basically all freedom they want, pay marginal sums - and get everything back, since a large part of the taxes is flwoing back to them: government isn't keeping them, but spending them, and it's the rich who profit from it (which is one of the reasons, why the haves become richer all the time and the havenots poorer.
So what we actually have is NO socialism, the fact notwithstanding that the really poor actually get money. While they do get money, a large part of it just goes back immediately to fit the pockets of the rich, while another one goes back to the government as sales taxes.
What makes people like Elodin cry "Socialism" is the correct observation, that the government is demanding too much money from the hard-working, not-a-fortune-earning middle class, the people who are commuting every day for an office job with some insurance company or bank, people who sell stuff in shops, people who do services, repair stuff, and so on, all those incomes BELOW the chief docs of a hospital, the top lawyers in town, the top managers of banks and insurances and all higher-ups.
They work hard - and are forced to give up a sizable part of that money, a loss that really makes a difference, when struggling with the rent or the mortgage for a small house in the suburbs. The rich people don't feel sales tax or ecen income tax - depending on their acoountants's skills the difference may be a new Benz every year or every second year or 20 or 30 yard pool in the garden for the not-really-rich and none at all for the really-rich.
However, it is WRONG to call that socialism and it is WRONG to claim, that money would be used to give welfare to the poor; you can easily check the figures yourself: If there were 10.000.000 people on welfare, and everyone would get 10.000$ per year this would cost 100.000.000.000§, a sizable sum - but only FOUR (4)% of the total Federal budget of 2010.
So, nope, no Commies at work, no socialists either - just the lobbyists of the different branches of big money, running the political, that is, legal business part of the big money branches (fighting for bigger shares of the cake).
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baklava
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posted July 07, 2010 12:42 PM |
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Fauch:
The critical difference is, government forces people to do whatever it wants, while people are free to choose what businesses to shop at.
Which brings me to a thing that was bothering me for quite a while, concerning capitalism's boasting of liberty.
What's so critical about freedom of choice when all choices are identical except one that comes down to not doing what you meant to do?
I mean that'd be like allowing you to choose which communist country you'd like to live in. They're basically all the same crap really.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Elodin
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posted July 07, 2010 02:26 PM |
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@JJ
Quote:
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[Elodin]
most people recognize that thievery is wrong.
[JJ]
True. That's the reason why there has developed something called socialism.
Yes indeed, it is. Street thugs organize into gangs for their own protection. It is less dangerous to them when they rob someone. In the same way, socialist thugs organize into a socialist political gang. But they go even beyond that. They hire (vote for) a socialist thug who will do the actual stealing for them, so there is no risk to them at all.
Then they can steal the hard earned wealth of others in safety.
Capitalism is a system where you can work and earn money for yourself. Socialism is a system where you can steal what others earn.
You claim that welfare is somehow an objective of the government. HOWEVER, I certainly disagree with that and it is in fact a violation of the US Constitution. If you claim it is constitutional quote the part of enumerated power that authorizes it.
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Medicare is similar to social security in that a Medicare tax is withheld from each paycheck of workers and is not Constitutional. I think there are people who have never paid Medicare tax who can draw from the system.
this shows that in spite your claim of being a Christian you haven't grasped one of its basic ideas - not to mention what society is all about.
Obviously you misunderstand the teachings of Christianity and the purpose of the Constitution, and the meaning of society.
I'm not sure why you think society is all about one group of people having a right to leech off the rest of society. Such a thing is detrimental to society, not beneficial to it.
CHARITY is taught in the Bible. CHARITY is a person of their own free will nobly and voluntarily giving something he owns to someone in need. CHARITY is not the government stealing from me to give to you. There is not one thing noble about theft. In fact, Jesus said, "thou shalt not steal." Jesus recognized private property rights and encouraged his followers to give to people in need. He did not encourage his disciples to seek out a government official and demand that the government leverage a tax to take what the disciple has to redistribute to those in need.
Also, the Bible says that the community should not support those who will not work.
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2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2Th 3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
So you see, JJ, you are to work and eat your own bread. You are not to steal my bread. Nope, the Bible condemns theft, not condones it.
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How well charity is working is easily to be seen when you count the amount of people starving to death in the world.
The countries that have starving people are mainly the result of government tyranny. They generally have a dictator who steals all the resources for himself. Resources sent into the nation from the outside are quite often confiscated and the tyrant uses the resources to enrich himself and his supporters.
And of course the actual proven fact is that conservative people in general give far more to charity than do liberals. Socialists talk a good game about redistributing wealth but it seems that they only want the wealth flowing one way--to them.
No, sorry, it is not nonsense that the Department of Education is unconstitutional. Please quote the enumerated power that grants the federal government oversight of education. It simply does not exist. Education is the domain of the states and counties.
Oh, I don't understand your complaint that the workers will have to pay more of their own health care cost in Germany. How is it theft that the workers have to foot more of their own health care bill?
Your claim that "so-called democratic governments steal from the middle class to give to the UPPER class" lacks any basis in reality. And your whine about poor people having to spend what the government gives them on the necessities of life instead of saving it or blowing it on strippers or plasma TVs is really bizarre..
Additionally, the high luxury taxes you cry for hurt the poor. The US government tried that Marxist idea and it simply resulted in the rich not buying the expensive items and the companies who made the items laying off workers as a result. Marxism simply does not work and is immoral. Oh, and exactly why is it moral to have tax rates increase as a person's income increases? Punishing a person for working harder, longer hours, smarter, ect, is very unethical.
@Doomforge
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JJ, don't bother talking to Elodin, he'll respond by more nonsense about socialist murdering people or eating embryos or whatever.
Sorry, I have said none of those things. As usual, when Marxism is shown to be what it is some people start growling like a threatened dog. Unfortunately their arguments are more akin to a whimper, in content. Marxism simply can't be defended as an ethical ecomonmic system.
Perhaps it is you who should "shut your mouth" until you become informed about what the Constitution actually says is the proper role of the federal government.
Sorry, nations need a military and in fact defending the US from all enemies, foreign and domestic is one of the few legitimate functions of the federal government according to the Constitution. Welfare is not a Constitutional role of the government.
No, sorry, it is not being a hypocrite to want the government to abide by the Constitution..
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It's meant to kill people, contrary to the tax socialistic system adds, which meant to help them.
Well, yes, a tank is meant to kill enemies. Glad you picked up on that.
"Well meaning" socialists find all sorts of reasons to steal from people. As I have observed previously, it seems, however, that the socialists crying for wealth redistribution never seem to redistribute their own wealth, which leads one to believe that a certain amount of hypocrisy is involved.
Sorry, I really can't see a justification for stealing from one person to give to another person. Instead of reaching in the pockets of others to help the poor reach into your own pocket and give to the poor.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 07, 2010 03:16 PM |
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You could have saved you the bother of writing that post, by just writing, "You are wrong and that's fact", because I can't find a single point, except of course the Bible quote that only those who work should eat - but the Bible says as well that you should help those in need, and anyway, who cares what the Bible says, in a country with religious freedom and a plethora of different religions?
If we talk about politics and economy, then the Bible is worth exactly zilch, and THAT is a fact.
My impression is that you are seeing the world through a certaiin pair of glasses, that has nothing to do with reality, which apparently is biassing you against simple and obvious truths: capitalism is great, the US are great, however, something isn't as it should be, but since you safely KNOW it can't be either capitalism or the US, the real thing must be poisoned by socialists, Marxism or any other ism that you know about from God knows whom, probably from the ramblings from some doubtful websites or a couple of fanatical halfwits: what must not be, that cannot be.
A very unhealthy motto.
If you say that certain actions or procedures of the government are unconstitutional - then YOU are the one who has the burden of proof. EVERYTHING is constitutional as long as someone doesn't prove it's unconstitutional, as everything is LEGAL, as long as there hasn't been any proof for the contrary.
So, Mr. Supreme Court, why is welfare uncconstitutional?
Why is the Dep of Edu unconstitutional?
Don't you think, if it was, organizations full of people like you would have gone to the Supreme Court a loooong time ago, pressing that charge?
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Fauch
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posted July 07, 2010 05:01 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 17:07, 07 Jul 2010.
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Fauch:
The critical difference is, government forces people to do whatever it wants, while people are free to choose what businesses to shop at.
maybe that liberty and that choice is an illusion. 1st, as bak said, our system is standardizing anything. 2nd, advertisers hire sociologists, expert in communication and even psychologists or brain experts to find ways to subconsciously manipulate people into buying their stuffs.
actually, better be forced by a government (dictatorship) because at least you realize something is wrong. the society of consumption works like totalitarianism, people do what the system expects from them, and they are under the impression they are free and making their own choices whereas they are manipulated. you probably noticed that our system doesn't only standardize products but also people?
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Capitalism is a system where you can work and earn money for yourself.
in theory, yes.
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Also, the Bible says that the community should not support those who will not work.
the problem is to define work, nowadays, it seems more and more defined by making money. your usefulness to the society seems mostly defined by the amount of money you make. the amount you get paid should be proportionnal to what you bring to the society. Did mother Teresa earned more than today's traders?
also, nowadays, work is mostly defined by your professional activity (so linked with money again). a woman caring about her children, doing the chores in the house, but having no professional activity may say she doesn't work.
I should also say, people are often identified by their work. ask someone what he does in life and he will most likely say either what his job is or if he has no job, just say he doesn't work.
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Punishing a person for working harder, longer hours, smarter, ect, is very unethical.
from what I know, people who work long and hard hours aren't usually the ones who get paid the most.
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Elodin
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posted July 07, 2010 05:16 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 17:17, 07 Jul 2010.
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and anyway, who cares what the Bible says, in a country with religious freedom and a plethora of different religions?
If we talk about politics and economy, then the Bible is worth exactly zilch, and THAT is a fact.
Actually, you made false statements about me and about Christianity, so I had to correct you on what the Bible teaches.
And the Bible does teach capitalism, not socialism. Far more wisdom is there than in the immoral writings of the moron Marx. The writings of Marx are worth less than zilch and has resulted in much destruction.
Oh, and the Founding Fathers echoed what the Bible says about charity.
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The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
- Thomas Jefferson
I place economy among the first and most important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers to be feared. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. If we run into such debts, we must be taxed in our meat and drink, in our necessities and in our comforts, in our labor and in our amusements. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labor of the people, under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
- Thomas Jefferson
I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious.
-Thomas Jefferson
To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.
-Thomas Jefferson
A wise and frugal government … shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.”
-Thomas Jefferson
The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If ‘Thou shalt not covet’ and ‘Thou shalt not steal’ were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free.
-John Adams
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My impression is that you are seeing the world through a certaiin pair of glasses, that has nothing to do with reality, which apparently is biassing you against simple and obvious truths:
My impression is that you are seeing the world through a Marxist pair of glasses that has nothing to do with reality, which apparently is biasing you against simple and obvious truths. For example, most people know that theft if wrong yet Marxists think it is ok to steal from one person to transfer the stolen goods to another person.
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So, Mr. Supreme Court, why is welfare uncconstitutional?
Why is the Dep of Edu unconstitutional?
Mr. Marx, I have already stated why they are unconstitutional. Go back and read my posts.
If you claim they are constitutional you need to quote the enumerated power that makes them constitutional. The Constitution limits the federal government to only the powers enumerated in the Constitution.
Perhaps you are ignorant of the fact that the federal government is limited to only the powers specifically enumerated in the Constitution. Allow me to quote the Tenth Amendment and also the article enumerating the powers of the federal government.
I will also provide relevant quotes from the founding fathers who wrote the Constitution.
The Constition chains the monster that is government. If it were not so chained it would grow huge and uncontrollable and devour us all. Unfortunately the US government is well on its way to devouring us as the limitations on the federal government and the check and balances are not being observed.
Tenth Amendment:
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The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Article 1: Section 8
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Section 8: The Congress shall have power To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;
To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;
To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;
To establish post offices and post roads;
To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
To provide and maintain a navy;
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;—And
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
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[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.”
-James Madison
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
-James Madison
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Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.
-Thomas Jefferson
If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions.
- James Madison
Let there be no change [in the Constitution] by usurpation. For though this, in one instance may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed."
--George Washington
The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the Federal Government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State Governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace negotiation, and foreign commerce…. The powers reserved to the several states will extend to all the objects, which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the state/
--Madison
With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.
- James Madison
"Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. Their meaning is not to be sought for in metaphysical subtleties which may make anything mean everything or nothing at pleasure."
--Thomas Jefferson
If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare... they may appoint teachers in every state... The powers of Congress would subvert the very foundation, the very nature of the limited government established by the people of America.
- James Madison
James Madison, when asked if the "general welfare" clause was a grant of power, replied in 1792, in a letter to Henry Lee,
If not only the means but the objects are unlimited, the parchment [the Constitution] should be thrown into the fire at once.
When all government, domestic and foreign, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated.
-Thomas Jefferson
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“I continue to hope that enough Americans will realize that the true strength of our country doesn't come from Washington, but rather the limitations placed on government in the Constitution. We must resolve to reverse the destructive course that we are on and then never again let big government problem-solving take over our lives and our country.
--Ron Paul
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Revelation
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted July 07, 2010 05:43 PM |
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Oh for heavens sake, man, if you project any harder, commissioner gordon could use to you book his appointments.
Yeah, smart move, assuming that everyone is going to give a tuppenny toss about what a bunch of 18th century plantation owners who got a bit hoity-toity and decided to kick the british empire out said. you do realise that this is an international forum, and that america is not the most powerful nation on the country? you do know that economically, china hands you're arse to you on a platter, militarily saudi arabia can give you a run for you're money, in terms of nuclear, russia is still a powerful player, you're education rates are some of the lowest in 1st world nations, lower than turkey, along with some of the worse areas of wealth distribution and fundie-mental-case religious nut-tardery, and you elected a man whose name is essentially c**tshrubbery.
America is not, nor has it ever been the most powerful nation on the planet. it's golden age was during the 1920's, but that was due to rather severe isolationism and massive monopolism, as well as a huge crash afterwards. Now, it's too much of a national player to be totally Capitalist, as well as the fact that, as marx predicted, the USA is having to outsource drastically due to the fact that it's own resources are running out.
there is no point in simply rejecting a philosophy as simply "Evil", before looking into it. such action could be reserved for those who have the emotional maturity of a toddler, so it's natural for people of elodin's caliber of intelligence to do so. In a similar way he characterises Muslim terrorists as "cowardly", so he characterises socialist policies as "evil", in the hopes that would follow his little story.
here's a suggestion, Elodin, free of charge. if you want to have you're ideas enforced, then stick to websites that enforce them. I'm sure there's loads. Here, you are subjected to the same treatment that any other idea is subjected to, and you're appeals to authority, you're strawman falacies, and you're bigoted views are being ripped to shreds. and when you eventually claim that you were here to look for gaming tips, I haven't seen you on any other forum apart from this one, so, logic dictates, that you came here for that.
now away with you. your disillusion that uncle sam and father capitalism are always right are no match for the collective clout of our intellectual diversity. go back to your illusion of freedom and choice in a culture that manipulates it's members to spend, spend spend, blaming the government for when it all goes wrong.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 07, 2010 06:18 PM |
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Section 8: The Congress shall have power To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
I don't see your problem - there it is. Whether Jefferson, Madison or whoever else would FEEL, COMMENT and OPINE out of 18th century, that something should or should not be included, is irrelevant at this stage. The times, they are a-changing, and so does constitutions, necessities, regulations, education, and about everything, and relevant is only the letter of the constitution, not what people thought over 200 years ago - they couldn't see the future..
And if that's not enough for you - press a charge at the Supreme Court, but stop bothering the world with your personal interpretation of the constitution
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