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| Thread: somebodies darling. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted June 08, 2010 11:23 PM |
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somebodies darling.
this is not so much a discussion thread as it is a statement of how I feel.
I feel it's too easy to label people as Terrorists or Murderers, to dehumanise them and demonise them so as to move them away from what they were. We don't want to have the guilt of saying "they were like us," we don't want any association with people like that.
but let me just say that there is no getting away from that, because all of these people were loved by someone. every terrorists, mass murderer, dictator, peadophile, for the horrible and disgusting crimes they commit, they were somebodies darling. Someone, somewhere, somewhen, loved these people.
and ultimately, I think that is a beautiful thing. That even in the darkest times of humanity, you will always find love, that most wonderful of human emotions. for every mad suicide bomber, there is a loving family they are fighting for. For every mad gunman, there is always a caring person.
this has all sparked off from the recent shootings in cumbria, where a perfectly ordinary man, with not history of mental problems, open fired on a group of people, killing 12, before killing him. The news interviewed his family, and it struck me that even though he did such a horrible act, there were still people who loved him.
I just find this really touching. but I am a liberal lefty, so what would I know.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 08, 2010 11:27 PM |
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Sure. But we can't forget the fact that they're going around killing people and therefore must be dealt with.
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Eccentric Opinion
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted June 08, 2010 11:29 PM |
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Quote:
Sure. But we can't forget the fact that they're going around killing people and therefore must be dealt with.
of course not. I was merely saying that these people have loved ones as well, no matter who they are.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted June 09, 2010 12:07 AM |
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Bixie, wouldn't you say those acts are committed because of a lack of love? Or a deluded kind of love?
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
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posted June 09, 2010 12:20 AM |
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In Brazil that would probably mean they are still somebodies darling... in prison.
Sorry, didn't mean to ruin your philosophic insight.
I was just being inappropriate about our corrupt penitenciary guards which gladly allow some raping and torturing of convicts. Not funny.
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted June 09, 2010 12:24 AM |
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People who shoot others and then kill themselves or whatever are not normal. People can also cheat the system to what is regarded as normal. People thought Ted Bundy was normal and look at what he did.
Also, Dagoth, people not only do these things out of a deluded love or lack of love, but usually something more sinister. Perhaps something affected their early childhood, mostly their mothers. It is interesting the amount of cases with people, with the serial killers (just using this as an example but it usually applies to many other killers as well) have to do with their early childhood and the way their mother affected them....usually badly. Mostly they did have love from their father, but the mother love was missing or was there but they got treated in a way that was bad. I don't know. I guess you're right to a point but yeah.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted June 09, 2010 12:27 AM |
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Edited by Shares at 00:30, 09 Jun 2010.
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Dagoth(and apparently Will): Didn't he just say that he thought it was just way to easy to say just that? No. All those deluded and loveless murderars are actual people. They are often exactly like us and a surprisingly small part of them are mentally ill.
I rarely care about murders, but I have looked into three or four (and I mean, looking up the murderer(as in doing a behavioural analysis on them)) and concluded that they were all kinda like me and that I could've done the same.
When people want to make an example of an Evil Person the often use Hitler, but I don't really think Hitler was evil.
((note the parantheses)Just to not get banned I'll define the way I use the word evil.
Evil: A person that conscious of the consequences (how it will hurt someone else) will do something that the person of action considers wrong for personal gain.)
Bixie: I totally agree.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted June 09, 2010 12:38 AM |
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True, lack of positive attention and affection (love) usually does things to the mind, but of course the most dangerous ones are the people who experienced negative attention (beatings) (starvation) from the parental unit. It can create a psychology of total self-reliance (and I mean self-reliance in the way of: "I am the only one I can trust and everyone is else is scum"-kind of self-reliance). Freud would have some choice things to sy about the mother thing, but I haven't read Freud. The psychologist I read always talked about parents in the colective form, though, so I can't say much about mothers.
Quote:
Dagoth(and apparently Will): Didn't he just say that he thought it was just way to easy to say just that? No. All those deluded and loveless murderars are actual people. They are often exactly like us and a surprisingly small part of them are mentally ill.
No, he said they were loved by someone. I said that people who are loved by others wouldn't be as prone to commit acts of violence which may cost your life as people who are alone.
I know they are people with real emotions and thoughts and a nerve system and they were all born, had parents, were babies, learned to crawl and walk and they are all perfectly human, but that doesn't subtract the probablity they probably weren't as loved as most others.
Read what I say more carefully, perchance 
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted June 09, 2010 08:25 AM |
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I always love how people make analyses of murderers and serial killers and they always pinpoint the character that is me. 
Thank you guys. 
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted June 09, 2010 08:44 AM |
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The one thing wrong with psychology, medicine as a whole, and statistics is .. well people. Also the difference between expected value and empirical (spelling) data. So lets look at these killers and see what I mean. (Just pardon the spelling )
There is the sociopath - incapable of feeling emotion. He/she might be loved by somebody else, but because of some other factor is unable to feel emotion themselves. However, not all killers are Sociopaths, and not all Sociopaths are killers. A lot of numbers could be given, percentiles, graphs, charts..but in the end it boils down to what a person CHOOSES.
The same can be said for the financially 'challenged' person, or those abused as children, and so on and so on. The vast majority of them live normal (if one can actually define normal) lives, and never go on a killing spree.
Statistics fall apart when the human element is added to the mix. Because humans are irrational, chaotic, and each one is DIFFERENT. Two people could be brought up with exactly the same history (same family, same issues, etc) and be TOTALLY different. This is while profiling, while enormously successful..is a lot of guesswork.
Which is why a profiler will say such things as : Between the ages of..
Most likely..
While they usually do get very close to the mark, there is the exceptions which prove the rule.
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Message received.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 09, 2010 10:08 AM |
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Quote:
Statistics fall apart when the human element is added to the mix.
The whole point of statistics is to estimate a range. If we could know exactly, there'd be no need for them, right? 
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Eccentric Opinion
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted June 09, 2010 10:20 AM |
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Quote:
The whole point of statistics is to estimate a range. If we could know exactly, there'd be no need for them, right?
Fix'd.
Don't get me wrong, statistics has their place, but statistics express Expected Value. Expected values are LONG term things, and individual results can fall way outside the norm. Since there is roughly 6 or 7 BILLION people then that is long term..and mostly right. It's those pesky 'individual' results that mess things up.
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Message received.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted June 09, 2010 12:52 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
The whole point of statistics is to estimate a range. If we could know exactly, there'd be no need for them, right?
Fix'd.
Don't get me wrong, statistics has their place, but statistics express Expected Value. Expected values are LONG term things, and individual results can fall way outside the norm. Since there is roughly 6 or 7 BILLION people then that is long term..and mostly right. It's those pesky 'individual' results that mess things up.
Gauss would beat the snow out of you for saying that, if he wasn't a dead 19th century german philosopher/ scientist!
EDIT: Oh, and profilers are heavily romanticised in popular media: they're usually wrong.
EDIT 2: Oh, and don't be such a post-modernist, mytical! (it's too easy a philosophy to adhere to)
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 10, 2010 12:59 PM |
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Quote:
There is the sociopath - incapable of feeling emotion.
but the society seems to be aiming at making us all sociopaths (and retards) like in nazi germany.
lol, I've just read they have considered trying to put a conscience in robots, while they are doing their best to anihilate the conscience of men 
I didn't know about it, but it seems some scientists are serious about using technology and genetics to "improve" mankind, which isn't only incredibly stupid and laughable, because human beings already have a much greater potential than what those researchs might bring to them, but also sounds very much like Hitler's ideology.
Quote:
Sure. But we can't forget the fact that they're going around killing people and therefore must be dealt with.
I'm afraid of what you mean here
Quote:
Statistics fall apart when the human element is added to the mix. Because humans are irrational, chaotic, and each one is DIFFERENT. Two people could be brought up with exactly the same history (same family, same issues, etc) and be TOTALLY different. This is while profiling, while enormously successful..is a lot of guesswork.
that is also the reason why we are conditionned to give up our liberties in exchange for (probably illusory) security, because some people can't stand that unpredictability, it prevents them from having a full control.
and then they wonder why some people start revolts.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 10, 2010 03:52 PM |
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I wrote this in another thread, but there is this guy in New Mexico who does research on serial offenders - the really heavy stuff.
And the crux of his finding is that they ARE NOT like you and me; their brain is different. A certain part where the feelings at home is not as densely filled with brain matter than it is the fact in normal brains. It's like an osteoporosis of the brain.
Which means these people are handicapped in a certain way; damaged.
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Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
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posted June 10, 2010 04:55 PM |
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Quote:
I wrote this in another thread, but there is this guy in New Mexico who does research on serial offenders - the really heavy stuff.
And the crux of his finding is that they ARE NOT like you and me; their brain is different. A certain part where the feelings at home is not as densely filled with brain matter than it is the fact in normal brains. It's like an osteoporosis of the brain.
Which means these people are handicapped in a certain way; damaged.
As a man of science, I have to question that. I highly doubt the researcher went trough the trouble of collecting brain biopsies of those offenders (its doable, but the risks of a live brain-biopsie are fairly clear, and he would never get their consent in doing so). The second possibility would be the material collected from an authopsies, this would be the best case because it would allow no only a microscopic evaluation but also a MACROscopic evaluation of the brain areas. But I can't really believe there are enough serial offender executions in New Mexico to allow such a study in first place. The third and most likely possibility is that the researcher has used magnetic ressonance to study those brains in vivo. This would mean the results are an estimative. Yup. The computer calculates the density of the brain matter according to its color within the grey scale. This method is less effective than the biopsy and its not gold standard to diagnose brain diseases.
In other words: the argument that serial offenders are misbuild by nature is a powerful tool with a hundred possibilities of abuse. But if it is factually correct, I would accept it right away. All I need to be convinced is some other 10 articles on the matter and perhaps a metanalysis to show all those papers have found similar results.
Without those criteria, this study would have a degree of evidence C (perhaps even D in case there were biases), which can and will not be taken serious within the scientifical community.
But it surely interests me! If you still have the link to this study, please send me the URL!
Wolfs
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Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
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posted June 10, 2010 05:06 PM |
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Quote:
Statistics fall apart when the human element is added to the mix.
Sorry there, Mytical. I mean no disrespect. But this sentence is simply wrong. Statistics show great accuracy within the psychology, psychiatry and sociology. Even in those highly "humanized" and subjective areas of study, many estimatives show to be rock solid when predicting events.
If you manage to identify and deal with the biases of each population, you can get results quite close to the real deal. And just in case it wasn't close enough, a metanalysis (as mentioned above) can be used to compare the results all over the globe. If conclusive, this can get you pretty accurate numbers.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted June 10, 2010 05:37 PM |
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@Wolfs
Quote:
Without those criteria, this study would have a degree of evidence C (perhaps even D in case there were biases), which can and will not be taken serious within the scientifical community.
Even if what the researcher claims is true and he is able to show this difference in density in the brains of serial killers, his sample size has got to be incredibly small, which would mean that the statistical significance of any differences would be questionable, at best. (Unless the difference was absolutely enormous.)
Anyway, I won't criticize it too much until I see the actual research, but that's just my suspicion.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 10, 2010 06:02 PM |
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Fauch:
What's wrong with trying to improve humanity biologically? Transhumanism isn't anything like forced eugenics.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
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posted June 10, 2010 06:15 PM |
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@Corribus
Voilą.
Since there are few criminals who actually fit the requirements for such a study I think any sort of cohort study would be simply impossible (the same applies to rare diseases). Those researchers are virtually bound to case-studies, which DO have value when summed up, compared and analysed.
Funny enough, the most complicated aspect of this study is not even the practical aspect of the research, but to actually determine what is CAUSE and what is CONSEQUENCE.
The brain changes the amount of active neurons, receptors and neurotransmissors according to certain situations. Some interesting tests with gifted violinists for instance show they have increadibly effective motor cortexes in the digital area of the frontal lobe. Much like fitness, one can exercise their brains to literally further develop.
So what would be cause and what would be consequence?
Is the atrophic "emotion-cortex" the generator of psychopaths or are the many years of psychopathy with violent tendencies the cause of an atrophic emotion cortex?
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