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| Thread: Moony's ancient faction concepts (1 - Fortress) | |
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted July 11, 2010 02:27 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 14:36, 11 Jul 2010.
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Moony's ancient faction concepts (1 - Fortress)
This junk has basicly been lingering around in textfiles, unfinished, and I'm not sure if I'd ever finish it anyway. I like to ponder about the faction concepts dispite being rather reservative, but quite often I just get stuck because I can't get a satisfying idea or lineup the way I would deem it 'perfect'.
In either case I just decided to smack it here to see if any reactions might provide some interesting ideas. And, well, to show off, of course.
Note that I am fairly conservative (factions are primairily H3) and focus on creature-lineups before any faction histories.
A few notes in the background;
In the time of making I used a skill-set of my own, mostly based on the H5 system. Every skill had 4 abilities under it, and each ability would be the pre-requirement of an additional ability that could be gotten after it.
Every hero had access to all 4 abilities, but only 2 of the subabilities. Each hero had 8 skillslots. The initial idea was to present each faction with 1 unique Faction skill available to both its heroes, and 1 individual classskill unique to each hero-type. In recent times I have begun to favour the idea of dropping the whole idea of using racial or class skills, since most of those tricks could simply be applied to the units or towns themselves. More than that, I found racial and class skills to be restricting your ability to mix armies far too much. None the less I will mention some of the ideas I had (or stole? I don't quite remember!) which I think were actually good or worth noting, when I think they haven't been mentioned before.
I should also mention I used a rather controversial upgrade-system. In essence, it is a mixture of various kinds of upgrades, set on different tiers depending on the faction. I simply believe certain units have a good validation for upgrades, whereas others do not (such as Zombies).
In essence, each faction had 3 regular upgrade units, 2 Alternative upgrade units, 1 double upgrade unit (the upgrade gets further upgraded), and 1 choice unit; two creatures you would choose between (like in H4) which don't have an upgrade.
In more recent times, I am more tempted to even drop that format and set upgrades exclusively where I think it would be logical (such as H2 did), regardless of how many types of upgrade that faction already has.
Take note that a double upgrade doesn't actually turn a regular unit into an upgraded unit and then into a super-unit, rather it turns a pityful unit into a regular unit and the ninto an upgraded unit (such as peasant -> Pikeman -> Halberdier). The double-upgraded unit is usually only -slightly- better than average. The black dragon is also a double upgrade 
Likewise the unit that doesn't get upgraded isn't a "regular" unit, usually it holds stats that are only slightly below that of an upgraded unit, but otherwise they are average to upgraded units.
Also note that I like to keep special abilities to a minimum actually... They can be fun, but too many of them can ruin the whole fun. Tier 1 units particularly I like to keep as basic fodder that aren't anything special.
Anyway, I'll list the faction lineups, the issues I had / have with them, and some of the abilities I had for their heroes below.
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Fortess
I have no idea yet about the name so untill then I stuck with the name Fortress. Yes, it's branded into my brain I'm starting with this one because the lineup is quite a bit different from what the original H3 lineup was and thus would be least likely to earn me the accusation of not changing enough. *coughs*
As a note beforehand, I went with the idea that most Fortress units have the "Lizardbite" ability. However, looking back on it, it might actually be pretty rediculous, since in H5 the lizardrider's attack is performed by its riders, and the lizardbite ability represents the mount. If anything, I am more tempted to have that ability instead mean "Retaliation attacks do 20% more damage" to represent their savage nature.
Their heroes are Beastmasters and Shamans.
LINEUP
TIER 1 (regular upgrade)
Lizardman
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Attack: 3
Defense: 6
Damage: 1 - 3
Health: 7
Speed: 6
Initiative: 11
Growth: 14
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Regeneration (This creature recovers health every time it takes an action. Health recovered is 90% of its normal maximum health)
Lizardbite (This creature will attack any adjecent enemy creature attacked by a friendly unit, dealing 50% of its normal damage to it)
-> Lizardman Headhunter
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Attack: 4
Defense: 6
Damage: 1 - 3
Health: 9
Speed: 7
Initiative: 11
Growth: 14
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Regeneration (This creature recovers health every time it takes an action. Health recovered is 90% of its normal maximum health)
Lizardbite (This creature will attack any adjecent enemy creature attacked by a friendly unit, dealing 50% of its normal damage to it)
Leap (Activated ability. This creature may leap to a free tile up to four squares away, dealing 60% of normal damage to all creatures crossed, suffering no retaliation)
TIER 2 (Choice unit)
Lizardman Archer
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Attack: 6
Defense: 9
Damage: 2 - 5
Health: 15
Speed: 6
Initiative: 10
Shots: 24
Growth: 10
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Shooter (This creature can perform ranged attacks, dealing half the normal damage when shooting past half its range, as well when melee attacking)
Lizardbite (This creature will attack any adjecent enemy creature attacked by a friendly unit, dealing 50% of its normal damage to it)
Wadjet
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Attack: 6
Defense: 9
Damage: 2 - 5
Health: 17
Speed: 13
Initiative: 16
Growth: 10
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Flyer
Dispeller (This creature casts M3 Cancellation upon its melee attack)
Casts Suffering (This creature casts M1 Suffering upon its melee attack)
First Strike(If this creature is capable of performing a retaliation strike, it will perform it before the enemy's attack. If the creature attacking this creature has the first strike ability as well, the retaliation will be performed after the attack as usual)
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NOTE: Pretty rediculous choice between a shooter and a flyer, considering the shameless dragon-fly ripoff is in every way better, one of the only 2 flyers in the faction, is more useful, and Fortress' tier 3 and 4 already are shooters. There are only two reasons why I added a lizardman archer here.
For one because the concept of a lizardman tribal swamphunter seemed like a logical addition to the faction.
For another because I had to add a choice-upgrade to the lineup, and tier 2 seemed best suitable for it. However, as stated above, I am tempted to ditch that restriction as well.
One alternative option could be to give tier 1 an alternative upgrade, the alternative being the archer version. However, as stated above, I prefer to keep most tier 1 units basic melee fodder, and Gremlins and Pixies already provide some nasty encounters in the tier 1 field. Lizardman archers would add to the discomfort, and steer away from the principle that 90% of tier 1 should be walker fodder. Anyway, onward!
TIER 3 (regular upgrade)
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Witchdoctor
Attack: 6
Defense: 9
Damage: 3 - 6
Health: 20
Speed: 6
Initiative: 10
Shots: 12
Mana: 15
Growth: 6
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Shooter (This creature can perform ranged attacks, dealing half the normal damage when shooting past half its range, as well when melee attacking)
Lizardbite (This creature will attack any adjecent enemy creature attacked by a friendly unit, dealing 50% of its normal damage to it)
Caster (This creature can cast spells)
Spellbook (Cure)
-> Voodoo Priest
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Attack: 6
Defense: 9
Damage: 3 - 7
Health: 20
Speed: 6
Initiative: 10
Shots: 12
Mana: 20
Growth: 6
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Shooter (This creature can perform ranged attacks, dealing half the normal damage when shooting past half its range, as well when melee attacking)
Poisonous Attack (This creature's attack poisons its target, dealing additional damage over 3 turns every time it takes an action. Does not affect Undead, Elemental, or Mechanical creatures. Total poison damage equals 1*n, where n= the number of creatures performing the poisonous attack)
Lizardbite (This creature will attack any adjecent enemy creature attacked by a friendly unit, dealing 50% of its normal damage to it)
Caster (This creature can cast spells)
Spellbook (Cure, Weakness, waspswarm)
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NOTE: In earlier stages it also had the Deathcloud ability, and I am still tempted to let it maintain so, even though it is damaging to its own units. Makes it a bit more a shooter one needs to take into better consideration before using.
Also, in recent times I pondered giving it the Raise Dead spell, capable of being used on the corpses of enemy units to raise a small number of undead units from them. They wouldn't remain with the hero after combat, and wouldn't penalize the reptile army with morale issues during the battle.
TIER 4 (double upgrade)
Gorgon
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Attack: 9
Defense: 9
Damage: 6 - 10
Health: 38
Speed: 6
Initiative: 10
Growth: 4
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Large Creature (This creature occupies a 2x2 square)
-> Medusa
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Attack: 10
Defense: 9
Damage: 6 - 10
Health: 38
Speed: 6
Initiative: 10
Shots: 8
Growth: 4
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Large Creature (This creature occupies a 2x2 square)
Shooter (This creature can perform ranged attacks, dealing half the normal damage when shooting past half its range, as well when melee attacking)
No Melee Penalty (This creature suffers no damage reduction when performing melee attacks)
-> -> Medusa Queen
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Attack: 10
Defense: 10
Damage: 7 - 12
Health: 42
Speed: 6
Initiative: 10
Shots: 8
Growth: 4
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Large Creature (This creature occupies a 2x2 square)
Shooter (This creature can perform ranged attacks, dealing half the normal damage when shooting past half its range, as well when melee attacking)
No Melee Penalty (This creature suffers no damage reduction when performing melee attacks)
Death Stare (Upon melee attacks, every creature in this stack has a 10% chance of killing a creature in the target stack instantly. Doesn't affect Undead, Elemental, or Mechanical creatures)
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NOTE: The Death Stare ability would need to be altered to befit a tier 4 rather than a tier 5.
TIER 5 (Alternative upgrade)
Wyvern
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Attack: 12
Defense: 12
Damage: 14 - 18
Health: 50
Speed: 12
Initiative: 11
Growth: 3
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Large Creature (This creature occupies a 2x2 square)
Flyer
Wild Beast (There is a 10% chance this creature, upon its turn, will attack the nearest creature regardless of who owns it)
-> Wyvern Monarch
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Attack: 15
Defense: 12
Damage: 16 - 22
Health: 50
Speed: 14
Initiative: 12
Growth: 3
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Large Creature (This creature occupies a 2x2 square)
Flyer
Wild Beast (There is a 10% chance this creature, upon its turn, will attack the nearest creature regardless of who owns it)
Poisonous Attack (This creature's attack poisons its target, dealing additional damage over 3 turns every time it takes an action. Does not affect Undead, Elemental, or Mechanical creatures. Total poison damage equals n*t, where n= the number of creatures performing the poisonous attack, and t= the tier level of those creatures)
-> Wyvern Rider
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Attack: 12
Defense: 14
Damage: 14 - 18
Health: 55
Speed: 11
Initiative: 11
Growth: 3
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Large Creature (This creature occupies a 2x2 square)
Flyer
Armored (This creature's Defense cannot be lowered through the use of spells)
Lizardbite (This creature will attack any adjecent enemy creature attacked by a friendly unit, dealing 50% of its normal damage to it)
Long Attack (This creature can attack its target with one tile left inbetween, preventing retaliation strikes)
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NOTE: Wyvern Monarchs are faster, act more often, gain a poisonous attack and do more damage. However, they maintain their wild beast ability. Wyvern riders actually drop a point in speed, gain more armor, and lose the wild beast ability. The choice is mainly between a quick and dangerous attacker or a more controlled unit. Personally, I dislike the wyvern rider unit though.
TIER 6 (Alternative upgrade)
Sauren
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Attack: 15
Defense: 18
Damage: 16 - 24
Health: 130
Speed: 7
Initiative: 9
Growth: 2
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Large Creature (This creature occupies a 2x2 square)
Enraged (This creature's Attack is increased when friendly units perish on the battlefield. The increase is relative to the perished stack's powerrating compared to the total army powerrating)
Lizardbite (This creature will attack any adjecent enemy creature attacked by a friendly unit, dealing 50% of its normal damage to it)
-> Sauren Rex
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Attack: 17
Defense: 19
Damage: 18 - 26
Health: 130
Speed: 8
Initiative: 9
Growth: 2
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Large Creature (This creature occupies a 2x2 square)
Enraged (This creature's Attack is increased when friendly units perish on the battlefield. The increase is relative to the perished stack's powerrating compared to the total army powerrating)
Lizardbite (This creature will attack any adjecent enemy creature attacked by a friendly unit, dealing 50% of its normal damage to it)
Frenzy (Every time this unit makes an attack, it gains +1 initiative for 3 turns. Every time this unit is attacked, it gains +1 damage and +1 Attack for 7 turns)
-> Scaleguard
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Attack: 16
Defense: 25
Damage: 16 - 25
Health: 140
Speed: 7
Initiative: 9
Growth: 2
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Large Creature (This creature occupies a 2x2 square)
Enraged (This creature's Attack is increased when friendly units perish on the battlefield. The increase is relative to the perished stack's powerrating compared to the total army powerrating)
Lizardbite (This creature will attack any adjecent enemy creature attacked by a friendly unit, dealing 50% of its normal damage to it)
Armored (This creature's Defense cannot be lowered through the use of spells)
Large Shield (This creature receives only 50% damage from ranged attacks)
Shield Allies (Friendly creatures on neighbouring tiles receive only 50% damage from ranged attacks)
Bash (Every attack performed by this creature has a 20% chance of stunning the target, preventing it from retaliating and resetting its ATB value to 0)
Block (Any damage received is always reduced by 20% (after regular reductions).
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NOTE: Sauren are large, crocodile-like humanoids capable of wielding two-handed weapons in a single hand. Their scales provide a natural coating of armor, but dispite their strength they are surprisingly agile. The alternative upgrade is again a choice between an offensive and a defensive unit.
TIER 7: (regular upgrade)
Hydra
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Attack: 17
Defense: 17
Damage: 25 - 45
Health: 200
Speed: 6
Initiative: 10
Growth: 1
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Large Creature (This creature occupies a 2x2 square)
Wild Beast (There is a 10% chance this creature, upon its turn, will attack the nearest creature regardless of who owns it)
Six Headed Attack (This creature attacks up to six enemy creatures standing adjecent to it)
No Enemy Retaliation (Enemies cannot retaliate against this creature's attack)
-> Chaos Hydra
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Attack: 19
Defense: 20
Damage: 25 - 45
Health: 275
Speed: 7
Initiative: 10
Growth: 1
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Large Creature (This creature occupies a 2x2 square)
Wild Beast (There is a 10% chance this creature, upon its turn, will attack the nearest creature regardless of who owns it)
Eight Headed Attack (This creature attacks up to eight enemy creatures standing adjecent to it)
No Enemy Retaliation (Enemies cannot retaliate against this creature's attack)
Regeneration (This creature recovers health every time it takes an action. Health recovered is 20% of its normal maximum health)
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NOTE: As if you were surprised seeing this unit here. I am actually not sure if its statistics and abilities validate the liability of the wild beast ability. It does however have a dangerously high initiative (all other tier 7s have 9)
Lineup summed up:
1 Walker
2 Shooter OR Flyer
3 Shooter / caster
4 Shooter
5 Flyer
6 Walker
7 Walker
The main issue with the lineup I have is tier 2, as I am not too sure what to do with it. Unfortunately the best option -might- be that tier 1 becomes an alternative upgrade housing the archer unit (which could give the faction a tier 1, 3 and 4 shooter combo), but in that case I'd make it relatively weak to validate going for the walker option, and leave tier 2 simply as a Dragonfly.
Also note tier 5 and 6 statistics might be off; they used to be swapped.
As a final note, one more issue might be the lineup has 4 large creatures. I am not too sure how to resolve this.
RACIALS
The only interesting racial I came up with for this faction was the "Breeder" ability; however, it stems from the time I still had more beast-like units in the lineup. None the less it could be interesting to mention.
Breeding:
Allows the hero to choose a select few creatures in his or her army who receive a bonus to their health according to the hero's level. Once choosen, it cannot be changed for the particular hero. The health boost is 1/3 x tier level for every hero level.
Basic: Hero may choose 1 creature. Maximum of 5 tier level points.
Advanced: Hero may choose 2 creatures. Maximum of 11 tier level points.
Expert: Hero may choose 3 creatures. Maximum of 17 tier level points.
Assuming a level 21 hero, 3 units would receive a bonus to their health as follows:
Tier 1: 7
Tier 2: 14
Tier 3: 21
Tier 4: 28
Tier 5: 35
Tier 6: 42
Tier 7: 49 (would give Hydras the second-most HP; Black Dragons top it with 325. With a hero of level 22 or higher, Hydras would have the highest.)
Note that choosing the highest tiers possible wouldn't actually give the highest effect. If one takes creature growth into account:
Tier 1 7 x 14 = 98
Tier 2 14 x 10 = 140
Tier 3 21 x 6 = 126
Tier 4 28 x 4 = 112
Tier 5 35 x 3 = 105
Tier 6 42 x 2 = 84
Tier 7 49 x 1 = 49
the highest effect would be gained when applying it to tier 2, 3 and 4. On the other hand, tier 1 and 7's regeneration abilities benefit additionally from more health.
RACIAL ABILITIES
Taming:
Reduces the chance of wild creatures attacking at random by 5% for those creatures that are marked for the Breeding skill, and have the Wild creature ability. Additionally, damage caused to friendly creatures due to the wild creature ability is reduced by 50%.
This ability stems from the time there were more beasts in the faction with the wild beast ability. With only 2 of them having it, it's usefulness is near nil.
PS: Apologies for the lack of overview... Wasn't sure if I should bother posting statistics or not; I think I will refrain from doing that in any next posts and simply show the abilities only. Ah well, I'm overheated anyway, too warm to think or bother. Later for now.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted July 11, 2010 02:42 PM |
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for your 4 large creatures issue: make medusa small, maybe?!
concept seems interesting, but I'm not too fond of lizardmen anymore^^
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Warlord
Famous Hero
Lord of Image Spam
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posted July 12, 2010 05:15 PM |
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted July 16, 2010 02:15 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 14:17, 16 Jul 2010.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted July 16, 2010 03:40 PM |
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heroes 3 modding?here's mine lizards!
These are only animated ones!I have hundreds!You can't defeat a true Lizard Maniac Modder!!!!
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted July 16, 2010 05:41 PM |
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I still vote for giving the medusa legs, whcih wiuld make it small...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 16, 2010 11:46 PM |
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I agree with Jiriki, if you have a problem that needs solution, then you gotta bite the apple on some point, and making the Medusa small (similar to H4 medusa btw, which matches the Lizard Man look very well) seems like the obvious choice. Otherwise you have to bent the rule that says a faction can't have 4 large units.
It's a nice line-up, even if I don't agree with your "variable upgrade" idea - but you know that. 
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What will happen now?
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted July 17, 2010 12:34 PM |
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Quote:
It's a nice line-up, even if I don't agree with your "variable upgrade" idea - but you know that.
Mwahahaha I still love receiving compliments from you.
All in all I think I rather like the lineup like this;
Walkers, tier 1, 6 and 7
Flyers, tier 2 and 5
Shooters, tier 3 and 4
Casters, tier 3
It's a pretty unique lineup like that.
And, well, was the H2 upgrade system really that bad?
In essence the alternative-upgrade system is little to no different from the H4 choice upgrades; you will most of the time, if not all the time, end up choosing the same unit over the other.
And I still believe certain units actually have a good reason to be able to upgaded into two different units, whereas others simply don't. Some don't even warrant a single upgrade, although at least that could be done.
What exactly is your main issue? That different units have different kinds of upgades? That I use units that don't get upgraded at all?
As for the Medusas, either I -am- going to let loose of that a minimum and maximum of large units in a lineup have to be 3, or I'll tug the tail-end closer to the unit, like a rolled up coil, to fit it into a single square.
I am actually more tempted for the former option; 4 large creatures is yet another thing that would make the faction more distinct from others and adds its own advantages and disadvantages.
@ Lizardwarrior:
Nice ones!
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