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| Thread: ...how many tiers |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted July 19, 2010 09:57 PM |
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...as i said, (how many times now)... NOT AT ALL 'BOUT UPGRADES here -.- as Matt said.
When there're some weeks gone here, I'll take the most voted number of tiers into another poll and there ask for upgrade systems.
...and here comes the old discussion...alternates or not?
Pro-Alt: "choice! variation! many great creatures!"
Contra-Alt: "Balance! Uniqueness! Tooo many creatures!"
...there will always be different opinions here...
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 19, 2010 10:27 PM |
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How about mixed? 7 tiers but only 2-3 of each faction are alternate, and alternate creatures only get one upgrade each (gives the same two upgrades as alternative upgrades).
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Jiriki9
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Altar Dweller
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posted July 19, 2010 10:43 PM |
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I had no more points to pick in the poll^^
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alcibiades
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Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 19, 2010 11:38 PM |
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My point is that Alternate Upgrades take pretty good care of this. If you put your mind into it so that the upgrades have different qualities (for instance, Footman upgrades into Squire (defensive) or Vindicator (offensive), or Scouts upgrades into Assassin (ranged) or Stalker (melee)) you can achieve just that element of unpredictability and strategic choice, as Vangelis mentions.
Well you could solve the Assassin/Stalker thing by having 2 different base creatures, one melee, one ranged.
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My issue with the Heroes 4 system is that you have a lot of interesting units (with appropriate artworks, special abilities, etc.) that you never get into game. For instance, choose between Naga or Genie. If you choose the Genie, Naga never comes into play.
This is only an issue if you're stuck with a single town, if you have 2 or 3 you can have one town producing Genies while another produces Naga. Of course, spreading them around will end up being a bit of a logistical nightmare, but that's just a prompt to come up with a new logistics system right (necessity is, after all, the mother of invention)?
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Of course if you have an unlimited number of creatures at hand, it won't make any difference, but in terms of coming up with creatures, making artworks, etc., I think it's much more easy to make two different upgrades than to make two different creatures. So you use your resources a lot better.
Well I've found that DnD is a good resource because it has oh-so-many creatures. In fact there are times when I've made a faction with 8 or 9 creatures, and had a real struggle on my hands trying to decide which creatures to cut.
Well ... all I can say is: You can achieve all the benefits of H4 unit choice system with Alternative upgrades, and you pretty much avoid all the problems of that feature - so I don't really see any reason not to go for alt upgrades instead.
@ Jiriki9 > Yes, I know this was not the original topic ... but it sort of came up. 
And like I said, I would opt for 7 tiers, no double tiers (H4 style). 7 has worked pretty well, and although I did play with the 8-tier idea, I agree with what someone said, that it makes difference between bottom tier and top tier too big.
Case of point: The WOG tier 8 creatures didn't do anything good for the game, the only skewed balance in my point of view.
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What will happen now?
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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted July 20, 2010 12:02 AM |
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I personally loved the h4 choice system (with upgrades it would've been slightly better). the Tot:E alternative system i am not so fond of but it's practical. Upgrades simply need to be handled better.
i voted for 5 alternative but after thinking it through 7 seems more logical.
the poll didn't accurately represent what i would've voted for if it had been there though. "Asymmetrical tiers". The only flaw with h4's system was that with only 4 tiers there was a lesser variety of challenge and variety, many potential monsters were formed into one.
Upgrades need an overhaul.
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Protection From Everything.
dota
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Jiriki9
Honorable
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Altar Dweller
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posted July 20, 2010 12:05 AM |
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What do you mean by assymetricasl tiers?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 20, 2010 01:48 AM |
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Well ... all I can say is: You can achieve all the benefits of H4 unit choice system with Alternative upgrades, and you pretty much avoid all the problems of that feature - so I don't really see any reason not to go for alt upgrades instead.
Trying to put an archer and a fast-striker on the same tier is going to be a real hassle for alternative upgrades. Mind you, I'm playing devil's advocate here, because I wouldn't really like all the tiers to have alternate bases. Voted 7-standard.
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Case of point: The WOG tier 8 creatures didn't do anything good for the game, the only skewed balance in my point of view.
I tried them a few times, but then disabled them.
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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted July 20, 2010 02:23 AM |
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What do you mean by assymetricasl tiers?
I mean that factions that don't have creatures of all tiers or have extra creatures.
For example.
Haven has two tier 1 units and sylvan has none.
Something of that sort.
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Protection From Everything.
dota
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 20, 2010 02:42 AM |
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Not a good idea, really not a good idea, if most of us can't agree on anything else to do with factions, we can agree that all the factions need a monster at every tier.
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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted July 20, 2010 03:37 AM |
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you stated no reason why it is a bad idea. i think it will balance out depending on how well it is handled.
it's not classic heroes but innovation needs to happen somewhere.
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Protection From Everything.
dota
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 20, 2010 09:48 AM |
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Well it's going to make balancing a real pig (how do you balance 5 tiers out against 6?), and some faction's heroes are constantly going to have empty space in their ranks (and quite possibly, other factions heroes aren't going to have 'enough' spaces). It's an innovative idea, but that doesn't make it good in and of itself.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted July 20, 2010 11:10 AM |
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@mamga, I agree to matt, that's not really going to work on hoMM, i think. Balancing issues, but also the basic symmetry of the game. It's like making it Real Time, or removing the "Town" system or something like that: Can be a great game, but wouldn't really be heroes any more. At least if you really plan to have soem factiosn have NO units of a certain tier. I think assymatric alternate creatures could be possible...
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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted July 20, 2010 01:47 PM |
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fair enough. i think it would be interesting but to each his/her own.
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Protection From Everything.
dota
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 20, 2010 02:10 PM |
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Come to think of it though, it might work if all faction had the same number of tiers, (say, all factions have 6 tiers, but overall 7 were available). Or you could do it by limiting the number of dwellings a town can have at each level, say, 4 for Village, 5 for Town, 6 for City, and 7 for Capitol. It'd still be a sod to balance though.
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