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| Thread: What upgrade system and/or unit choice system do you prefer. | |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 20, 2010 11:45 AM |
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Poll Question:
What upgrade system and/or unit choice system do you prefer.
Spurred by the discussion in the "how many tiers" thread, and after Jiriki's request that we don't hijack his thread, I thought we would make this a specific topic.
So, which upgrade system and/or unit choice system do you prefer?
Most options should pretty much be self evident, by "variable upgrades" I mean that some units have no upgrades, some units have one upgrade, and some units have double upgrades (e.g. Green Dragon > Red Dragon > Black Dragon), could possible be alternative upgrades as well.
By option 9 (Moonlith style, aka. complete chaos  ) I mean that there are no "rules" at all - you make every tier in every faction as you want it.
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What will happen now?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 20, 2010 11:57 AM |
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I voted myself for "Alternative upgrades", although I might have gone for "other", which would have been "Alternative multiple upgrades", i.e. each creature can be upgraded twice along two paths.
I think the Alternative upgrade option has some strong point in that it offers tactical adaption to the opponent your facing if implemented in the right way. Thus, upgrades need to be specialized in different areas, either as different unit types (e.g. walker vs. shooter, walker vs. flyer, shooter vs. caster, etc) or with a different focus (offensive vs. defensive). The latter is probably more realistic in the former in most cases, but that's also fine.
Some units can offer a specific feature that's going to be helpful against certain factions - for instance a unit with Fire Resistance or high Magic Resistance on one of it's upgrades will be a viable choice against Fortress an Dungeon, respectively, while you might go for the alternative (which should have an offensive edge) against a faction like Haven, which is unlikely to focus a lot on magic.
I think the AU system avoids some of the pitfalls of the Heroes 4 unit choice system - first off in game anoyances like capturing a castle where opponent has made the other choice than you have (a problem which could be worked around with a demolish feature) and always locking yourself on certain paths (which means that choice of high level creature must not for your choice of low level creature - i.e. you must not be required to built, say, Priests in order to get Angels in high tier).
From a developer's point of view, I also think that the AU system has the advantage of being more "economic" - i.e. you have to come up with less overall creatures, because the alternative upgrade, everything else equal, will have more in common (both in terms of skins, abilities and overall "feal") with the basic unit than would a completely different unit for unit choice. On the other hand, this does mean that radically different units (e.g. defensive shooter/caster vs. offensive flyer) are hard to optain in a realistic way.
Lastly, I must admit I'm probably a bit of an order freak: I like systems! So the complete chaotic approach of letting every tier adapt to the unit doesn't really appeal to me - even though I do admit that sometimes, having a restriction that means you have to come up with this or that amount of upgrades can require that you make some forced choices.
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What will happen now?
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Bombur
Known Hero
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posted July 20, 2010 12:09 PM |
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Alternative seems best because of the variety of tactics that can be set in motion, maybe combine them in a way that every castle should have at least three archers,(even if the non-upgraded version isn't archer,one of the upgrades on let's say tier 1,tier 4 or tier 6 should be able to shoot),like skeleton warriors and archers.
Also you could have an upgrade a slow but strong and high defensive tank unit, while the other could be a extremely good damage dealer with higher speed and lower defense.
By the way I do hope that heroes 6 is a little more realistic and not so cartoonish as h5.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 20, 2010 12:10 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 12:19, 20 Jul 2010.
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Gah, can't decide. Option 4 works well, but IMO option 6 would work just as well, or a mix of the two (say 4-5 tiers of option 4, with 2-3 of option 6).
Quote:
Lastly, I must admit I'm probably a bit of an order freak: I like systems!
I can understand that, I'm the same.
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So the complete chaotic approach of letting every tier adapt to the unit doesn't really appeal to me - even though I do admit that sometimes, having a restriction that means you have to come up with this or that amount of upgrades can require that you make some forced choices.
Hey, variable unit choice and upgrades doesn't have to chaotic. I mean you could have a system where tiers 1, 2, 3, 5 and 7 use option 4, while tiers 4 and 6 use option 6, it's still fixed, it's just a touch more complex.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted July 20, 2010 12:10 PM |
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Edited by Jiriki9 at 12:11, 20 Jul 2010.
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1st: It depends on the tier number!
f.e. if I want not so much tier I prefer a system with more choice & upgrades, but with 8 or more tiers I'd go for variable or alternative uogrades, but definitely no unit choices!
I went for unit choice + variable upgrades, because I like choice and difference  didn't use variable upgrades til now, maybe I shall change that^^
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted July 20, 2010 12:28 PM |
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I voted TotE style. It likely the most easy one to ballance and offers the a lot of tactical flexibilty.
However, I have to say that balance can make or wreck a system. I'd rather have it Heroes 1 style and well balanced, than TotE style with no balance whatsoever.
When you start with alternative tier and upgrades, I have the feeling originality of the units will suffer. You'll get stock-characters and forced backstories. I've tried such a thing once along with Matt in the canceled HeroesVI team competition. And seeing as how I took up most of the story aspect, I realy had to force myself at times to create some believeable background for the units. But then again we may have overplayed our had there.
Also, I might be alone in this, but I feel that decent backstory can make or break a unit as well. And I have to say that some of the TotE units felt a little forced.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted July 20, 2010 12:34 PM |
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Edited by Jiriki9 at 12:35, 20 Jul 2010.
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@ war-overlodr: I was so sorry when I realized the team competition went down...but the teams all jumped out somehow...bad bad
however, as i said in teh other thread, this is so useless to be discussed, imo: it's allways choice,variation&diversity vs balance&originiality...
I personally like to have a choice, 'cause it gives me more influence and is a reasonable strategic aspect, imo.
EDIT:
...just realized I also could have voted other...a compelte renewal of upgrade system could be good, maybe.
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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted July 20, 2010 01:55 PM |
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And i got this poll wrong too >.> I had interpreted the tiers poll to include upgrades and then i messed up here voting for the wrong one.
I'd like to see a mishmash style of upgrades / some units have two upgrades while others have none. Toss in alternative unit choices rarely (like once per town) with some alternative upgrades and the and maybe even hero specific upgrades (though it'd be a pain to balance.)
The last one I'd like to see. A hero who can upgrade a specific type of unit. to balance it out from hiring tons of low level heroes for their units the upgrades will be more expensive at level 1 and will gradually get more reasonable as he levels up.
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Protection From Everything.
dota
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted July 20, 2010 02:38 PM |
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@mamga: had this in a way in a thread shortly before, or better ahve it (the one with probably unliked idea for upgrades)
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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted July 20, 2010 03:52 PM |
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it's already been posted as an idea?
I don't read This subforum too often. sorry
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Protection From Everything.
dota
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted July 20, 2010 07:23 PM |
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@mamga not exactly. I posted an upgrade proposal that made factional upgrades...teh big similarity is that not the towns but the heroes are responsible for upgrading.
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Warlord
Famous Hero
Lord of Image Spam
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posted July 21, 2010 07:20 PM |
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I voted Tote style as well. There is plenty of options, but enough room for all the units to be more or less different.
Jiriki9, I posted my ideas for the priest upgrades on that page. Can you look at them and see how you like them?
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