Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 8+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Skills and Specialties
Thread: Skills and Specialties
Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted September 03, 2010 12:13 AM
Edited by Sleeping_Sun at 00:14, 03 Sep 2010.

Heroes specialties and influence on skills

READ FIRST BEFORE POSTING!!!

This thread is about heroes specialties(and in some way skills as well). In H3 and H5 there are some specialties which are good for nothing while others are abnormally powerful.
Quote:
Look at Deleb; she doesn't need an army in the first few days, because she has an exploding ballista).  But I can't help but think that if everyone had something like that, something potentially game-breaking for their specialty, it would add a lot more flavor and depth to each hero's gameplay.  It would certainly be more interesting to watch than a static +1 to attack and defense.  And it would make your choice of hero important in more ways than simply determining what units you started with.  A hero with a knack for dragons, for instance, might actually be worth using, if that knack meant that in the late-game all your dragons' fire breath passed through three squares instead of two.
I agree what Aosaw said.

I'll quote myself as an example of changed and (not yet) balanced specialties:
Quote:

1)
Specialty: Unit (for example: golem)
lvl1:    +3 attack
lvl2:    +3 defence
lvl3:    +1 speed
lvl5:    +1 min damage
lvl7:    +1 max damage
lvl10:   +5 health
lvl13:   +50% chance to attack creature which was attacked by hero (or casted single target spell)
lvl15:   +10% resistance to non magic damage
lvl17:   +Ability: Double strike
lvl20:   +1 speed; +Ability: immune to magic
lvl23:   +1 min damage; +1 max damage
lvl25:   +2 increase growth in towns
max lvl: +some ability unique only for golems ( unique for every other unit)

2)
Specialty: spell (depends if it's a buff or damage spell)
lvl1:    -1 mana cost
lvl2:    +10% spell damage
lvl3:    +10% spell damage
lvl5:    +10% spell damage
lvl7:    +10% spell damage
lvl10:   +able to cast on multiple targets (mass spell if its a buff)
lvl13:   +specialty spell can be casted 2 times in one round
lvl15:   -25% target resistance when casting specialty spell
lvl17:   +50% chance creature can cast spell on attack (if negative buff or damage spell)
lvl20:   +50% chance to cast specialty spell when hero attacks target
lvl23:   +50% spell damage
lvl25:   +spell lasts until the end of combat (buff)
max lvl: +100% spell damage; +spell can't be resisted or removed(buff)

3)
Specialty: Skill or Ability (first aid or offence) - First Aid
lvl1:    +first aid restored after combat if destroyed
lvl2:    +10% healing power
lvl3:    +10% healing power
lvl5:    +heals twice during the round
lvl7:    +can resurect 50% of killed units
lvl10:   +can't be destroyed in combat
lvl13:   +50% chance to heal/ resurect 75% of killed unit stack when hero casts buff on the
lvl15:   +100 healing power points
lvl17:   +enemy first aid heals -50%
lvl20:   +increase health of all creatures by 1
lvl23:   +increase health of all creatures by 2
lvl25:   +creatures immune to poison
max lvl: +heals all creatures


Post your wishes, suggestions, opinions and thoughts here. I'll post again soon when I finish balancing specialties... With changing specialties we need to watch for skills as well. So here, we'll have a discussion about specialties and their impact on skills.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
whiterider
whiterider


Known Hero
death walks with me
posted September 03, 2010 12:58 AM

I dont like the idea of giving more abilities to the units. Even now at the middle of the game fights with neutrals become boring because your hero makes a lot of difference with all +att, +def, skills and spells. Fights with other heroes happen from time to time and only than the units have somehow equal start.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Aosaw
Aosaw


Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
posted September 03, 2010 02:49 AM

I'm not sure I do...

Are you saying that each skill has its own skill tree?  That sounds like a lot of bookkeeping for a computer game (Oh, hi there Civilization, didn't see you come in...).

I don't see a problem with a hero's army being stronger than an army without a leader.  What's the hero for, if not for making his army stronger?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Aosaw
Aosaw


Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
posted September 03, 2010 03:24 AM

Ah, so somewhat similar to how might heroes in H3 could only learn up to level 3 spells, even with Wisdom.  That makes sense.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Aosaw
Aosaw


Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
posted September 03, 2010 03:42 AM

Honestly, if the skill tree remained the same as it was in H5, and they just let us choose our skills at each level, that would make me happy.  I got fed up with a single-player scenario today because, part-way on my road to the hero I wanted, I was given a choice between Luck and Enlightenment, neither of which were on my list of skills to acquire, and then no secondary skills.

Quite annoying.

Granted, the path i was on would have almost doubled my creatures' damage output (Attack, Archery, and then both Cold Steel and Fiery Wrath), but there shouldn't have been a reason why I couldn't do it that way.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted September 03, 2010 10:44 AM

@WhiteRider
Quote:
I dont like the idea of giving more abilities to the units. Even now at the middle of the game fights with neutrals become boring because your hero makes a lot of difference with all +att, +def, skills and spells. Fights with other heroes happen from time to time and only than the units have somehow equal start.
You are right about mid and late game, in which heroes are much stronger than neutrals and I agree with that. But, this isn't a point about being equal with neutrals, point is to be equal with heroes in the beginning of the game, in mid game and late game(especially their specialties). It's easier for hero to win battle if he has better specialty then enemy hero who doesn't have that much spectacular specialty!!! For example: Initiative > Unit specialty

It is normal that hero who is lvl 13 to be stronger than hero lvl5, for an example, but if hero who is lvl 2(specialty - fire ballista) and has smaller army than the hero who is lvl5(specialty - weakness  also lowers defence) and then beats him, then it's not equal at all. Because fire ballista will do all the dirty work for hero while other hero can only sit and wait for his defeat. For example Kaspar(First Aid Tent) is very powerful against both heroes and neutrals in th beginning and in the mid game, but later game it's useless because you can use it only 3 times. Agains neutrals it is ok, but against heroes it loses its purpose...

@serptico
I am not sure how will skill trees work in Heroes games, but if you give us some of your ideas maybe isn't bad at all. I just don't like your idea about Knight having only might tree. It will limit heroes and skills he can choose. In past heroes games, might classes can also learn magic skills besides might skills and magic classes can learn both as well.

@Aosaw
You are right about H5 skills. They come too much random.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted September 03, 2010 11:08 AM
Edited by radar at 03:18, 05 Sep 2010.

SS, I think your abilities are versatile but far too much complicated. The more complication the lesser the fun. I had problems with my planning my tactics playing as orcs with blood rage in H5 already. Nonetheless I must admit I liked the creature experience system in WOG (as long as I didn't have to r-click every creature now and then).
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted September 03, 2010 12:35 PM
Edited by Sleeping_Sun at 12:37, 03 Sep 2010.

@Radar
If complicated = balance; then I go for a complicated things
Personally I loved blood rage and i think it's great. I just don't get it what do you mean by having less fun with complicated and versatile skills and abilities. I enjoy in versatile things. So many choices to make.

I forgot to mention that several heroes in H5 have abilities like I mentioned in example, although in smaller scale. Look specialties for goblins, defenders, pao kais, shadow witches, peasants, griffins,... they combine two things. +att/def and +hp per level or something else...
My point is that these abilities started in H5 I just want to balance their power...
____________
"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
seddy
seddy


Known Hero
Spinner of delicious cupcakes
posted September 03, 2010 01:13 PM

Interesting idea, but it would be pretty complicated and since that creatures (I hope and think) will be at least as varied in HVI as in previous installments, it would need a lot of balancing.

The effect of double attack for example (or ANY other ability), how would that work with creatures already having double attack?

Adding +1 min and max damage would triple the power of some weak but plentiful units, but would be greatly inferior for big powerhouses/champion units.

So since there couldn't be a template, each skill would require a very advanced specialty advancement tree. Which I doubt could fit in the description bx and thusly would be another thing which you'd have to learn in fan based manuals.

Same thing goes for spells, take haste vs word of the chief (more ability/shout than spell, but random choice). Haste wouldn't benefit from the extra damage at all, and the negative resistance would be a de-buff. Word of the chief would do more damage to the allied target, and further de-buff it. So there'd have to be specific templates for each individual spell (or spell category, all single target damage spells without further effect could be lumped into one).

It is a nice, innovative idea, but I think that it would be difficult to implement with balance.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted September 03, 2010 05:08 PM

Quote:
@Radar
I just don't get it what do you mean by having less fun with complicated and versatile skills and abilities. I enjoy in versatile things. So many choices to make.



Quote:
are versatile but far too much complicated






A HoMM battle is like playing chess. You have to plan a few moves ahead. A good player knows the game thoroughly - that's true. My point is, that if there's simply too much to consider the gameplay slows down. You can't think of each of 60 abilities your opponent has, it kills the fun.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Aosaw
Aosaw


Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
posted September 03, 2010 06:20 PM

The description could be as simple as "Minotaurs and Minotaur Guards in the hero's army become more powerful as the hero gains levels."

In the code itself, you could then make each creature specialty unique to its creature, but within the same general parameters (i.e. more hit points, higher attack/defense, greater damage, a new ability, etc.).  That way, players don't have to worry about what their specialty does; they simply know that it makes their minotaurs more powerful - and every once in a while, they notice that their minotaur guards attack three times instead of two when they have good luck.

It also makes you pay more attention to your opponent's hero; if you see that Naadir is level 15, for instance, you'll definitely think twice before engaging, even if you know the computer AI is crap.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 03, 2010 09:22 PM

Can't say I'm entirely convinced, I'd prefer every single effect to be gradual, rather than jumping as this is proposed. I would agree to a few more mild bonuses though, since IMO, attack and defence just aren't going to work in a lot of cases (Razzak would do a lot better for +1 attack/defence every 4 levels from the first and +1 speed every 6 from the third).

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
TDL
TDL


Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
posted September 05, 2010 01:00 AM
Edited by TDL at 19:31, 05 Sep 2010.

Hello. I could not overlook this discussion (hey radar, long time no see ) and have a few suggestions about the matter at hand.

First off, this is pure guesswork/suggestions for how it should/might look like. Having absolutely no information on how they are going to manage the skill system and hero specialties (if they are present at all), I can only give it some thought as opposed to a full skill tree which I would create given the chance to take a peak at the game's data.

Secondly, the way I think things could be done (with proper balancing of course), is fairly much dependent on the branching of every class/skill subtree/specialty and their fixed separation. As I am not yet guaranteed about the strictness of skill separation between might and magic heroes (even though it does seem to have been confirmed), I can only base the idea on a preset discursion between classes.

Say, we are poised to guess how a skill tree should look like. How I envision the whole thing based on the separation of the classes relies on two core class skill subtrees and a single secondary class skill subtree. The two hero classes have different affinities - magic versus might, respectively. The third skill subtree features skills that can be acquired regardless of affinity and/or based on the opposing affinity, if that is accepted, with restrictions (ie.: might heroes obtaining magic skills whilst magic heroes obtain might skills). Needless to say, some might and magic skill subtrees should/need to be available to every hero class respective of their opposing affinity.

Mainly, however, I would care to both diverge from and both continue the above section by explaining how I envision hero specialties should be made. First of all, hero specialties, just as based on their names, give heroes unique advantages over one another which denies them any chance of proper balancing (unless all heroes are made with the exact same specialty). Therefore, additional time (which costs money) is vital to balance them out which is usually spared for other tweaks. Thinking about this made me realize that the only other way I could understand balancing goes in the form of sorting specialties into subtrees, just as the skills.

Hero specialties, however, should NOT affect skills themselves per se (ie.: experience bonus 2% every 4 levels, similarly and complementary to intelligence). Knowing full well that we can have a hero just as we want him (because of the new level-up non-random system), there is no need to further enrich a certain skill's worth just by taking a certain hero. That is doable, of course, but I'd rather not to, especially if the amount in % is of greated number and general effect on the game. Also, it should be noted that specialties could be only loosely limited to heroes with a certain affinity (affiliation): for example, magic heroes could as well specialize in spellcasting creatures.

Might (militaristic, offensive) category would rely on battle tactics, unique battle traits, creature skill boosts, hero's military strength as well as own damage output increase. The amount of subcategories within the subtree corresponds to basic necessity: we can leave only hero's damage output increase and creature skill boosts if need be. However, being based on these two subcategories would pretty much rule out any need of specialties as it would be practically the same. Hence, various subtle specialties could be added or various subtle creature traits should be improved by the governing specialty.



Magic (spellcasting, magic mastery, defensive) category would rely on mastering certain spells, increasing their damage output/effect, creature magic affinity/resistance boosts, hero's magical damage strength, enhanced magic-oriented effects. However, the subtree's categories should correspond to a defensive style - the hero remains the individualistic spellcasting strategist, not the ultimate leader.



Mixed (unique, adventure, secondary) category would rely on specialties that do not belong to any of the above categories. Such specialties are hard to name by example (some may include racial traits, the others may as well rely on the adventure map), so all I can do (for now) is show some H5 examples:



However, I have failed to mention a few things (which were already mentioned in the thread). To balance out specialties, effects need to spread accordingly: creature specialists need a noticeable yet gradual increase in firepower, spellcasters need noticeable rebalancing (such as Nathir's fireball), object-oriented might specialists need noticeable rebalancing as well (such as Deleb). Nevertheless, specialties need not be dumbed down, but they should not decide the game. Then again, each and every one of them should progress accordingly and not be limited to a semi-linear increase. Below I will show some examples of what I have in mind in comparison to the used system (numbers and non-linear curves not final, would change in game).



The above image reflects the aforementioned ideas. Having no certain information on factions, I cannot delve into unique specialties-per-faction proposals (and of course balance problems). Also, I cannot guess the possible attack/defence values, nor other effects. The above example henceforth is just a sample, not a suggested idea by itself. The six subcategories affected by the specialty may also not be everything (other statistics could be affected as well). A magic hero could have interchangeable stat upgrades for a certain creature if the specialty is shared between a might and magic hero: instead of relying on attack and defence, it would rely on increasing magic damage/resistance and over all hit points (survivability). Also, there could be specific traits of a creature affected per specialty (ie.: aside from the usual defence/attack bonuses, a pikeman would get speed bonus, a monk/priestess would get magic resistance bonus or damage vs undead/demons bonus while a griffin would get a substantial hit point increase). However, the example should show the compulsory change between the two systems.

Another way to enhance specialties and their effects (and with this, also to modify them and balance them out, ie.: instead of having Zoltan's spellblock limited capability, gradually increase it) would be to make them upgradable much like skills. The invested skill point would then improve the specialty and its effect to a slightly to moderately larger extent. While the ulterior motive is to NOT destroy the balance, having to choose between a skill upgrade and a specialty upgrade could have serious repercussions (ie.: swift enemy might hero attack, breaches your flank, attacks main hero (with elevated offence), main hero has specialty such as spell block and invests points in it in early game = destroyed). Therefore, I'd rather not meddle with the balance as of yet.

This whole idea is a sketchy, much-disputed subject. Even then we can safely discard the idea of a self-descriptive separation of specialties into sub-categories (much like with the skills): these could only be noticeable if collected by a willing player/community member, but would otherwise appear as affiliated invisible specialty trees in the game (much like the famed H5 skill system). Nevertheless, I could suggest several specialties on my own which could possibly work in the game, provided the said factions are in-game, however I dare not do so at this point in time. I may actually also return to this idea once H6 is out to see how applying certain elements from it would improve the game.


All in all, thank you for reading this essay (to whoever read it) and I hope to hear some comments (positive of course ; nah, negative is acceptable as long as constructive; I am seeking to create a full skill/specialty template). If you need some clarification (the post was pretty rushed, sadly, but I am working on a larger version and need feedback), no hesitation please .
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread »
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0713 seconds