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| Thread: Active Morale |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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whiterider
Known Hero
death walks with me
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posted September 15, 2010 12:26 AM |
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Active Morale
Active Morale means that the Morale of the army is changing during the battle.
The Morale should depend on a single unique element for every faction.
For Haven Morale should be Bravery
For Necropolis - Hunger
For Inferno - Bloodlust
We dont know the names of the other factions, so no ideas at this moment.
The battle starts with Morale calculated for every faction depending on hero skills, artifacts, army etc (as in the old Heroes games) but it starts to change with every turn.
Necropolis gains Morale when its army grows bigger - they suck life force from their enemies. Actually Necro Morale is negative - it doesnt add to their own morale but decreases enemie's morale. So +5 Necro Morale means -5 Haven Morale or -5 Inferno Morale etc.
Haven gains Morale when resurrecting their units, when using defense formations or blocking enemies strategies. Morale increases when Haven troops are at short distance from each other.
Inferno gains Morale when hardly crippling enemy army. Every time an enemy stack is killed or when an enemy stack is confused or other dark magic spell is cast. When enemies are scattered or when many demons are gated.
At the moment it is not realistic when i.e. you army is halved on the battle field and your archers continue to have +8 Morale. They should scatter in fear and their morale is decreased.
IMO the Morale in H6 should not add extra turn as in H1-3/5 but give critical hit chance (double damage or 150% damage, or it should give +150% attack). Giving extra turn for Morale greatly decreases the Undead faction, can you remember castle in H3 when high morale almost doubles the human army strength and the undead gain nothing).
Before H5 I had a website with ideas about heroes game and one of these ideas was to remake the attack-defense-damage system, so low attack vs high defense gives a chance to miss, with high morale this chance is nulled and low tier creature could attack high tier creature.
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted September 15, 2010 01:16 AM |
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Very interesting idea, I'm in favor of this.
Not sure if I'd call the Necromancer's Anti-Morale "hunger" though, maybe Dread or something?
Quote:
IMO the Morale in H6 should not add extra turn as in H1-3/5 but give critical hit chance (double damage or 150% damage, or it should give +150% attack)..
Nah, better leave that to a skill like "Luck". Though I don't really like Luck as a skill, feels weird. I agree about not adding extra turns.
I think Morale should give a constant buff/de-buff rather than the chance of higher damage.
Morale < 5 - ATK/DEF Debuff
Morale = 5 - normal state, no buff/debuff
Morale > 5 - ATK/DEF Buff
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whiterider
Known Hero
death walks with me
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posted September 15, 2010 01:26 AM |
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Yes, the Hunger is causing Dread in the enemies, lowering their morale.
Morale can be used with different effects for all factions:
Humans get more defense and chance to block certain ammount of damage every turn (higher morale = higher chance of blocking)
Inferno get more offence and chance to cause more damage
Magic towns as Academy get higher chance to block enemy spells (Magic Mirror)
Magic towns as Dungeon get higher damage to offence spells.
Faceless (if it will be a faction) could focus on hypnotize effects - higher Morale - higher chance to charm enemy stacks.
Undead decrease the effect of enemy Morale (no special gain for themselves)
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted September 15, 2010 01:38 AM |
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Too complicated imo.
Why should the mood of Academy humans and Haven humans affect them differently for example?
You say that higher morale would cause Dungeon to gain higher offensive spellpower, why? Are all Dungeon creatures spellcasters or does the increased spellpower only apply to the Hero? And in that case, why does the mood of the creatures even affect a Warlock? Should he really even care what they think?
It's best to keep it to a simple ATK/DEF buff/debuff imo. With all the rules of gaining morale you mentioned in the first post, adding specific (and kinda unlogical) morale effects to different factions would make the whole thing too confusing.
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whiterider
Known Hero
death walks with me
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posted September 15, 2010 01:56 AM |
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Because all factions are driven by different impulses. Undead seek perfection in solitude and letting go of all emotions, humans protect the life, elves seek harmony, dark elves seek power and domination etc. All creatures in Asha have their own agenda and are using different means to fulfill their goals. Why not creatures affect the hero since the hero affects its own army with the skills and the artifacts?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 15, 2010 02:00 AM |
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in H4, morale allowed to act earlier and to deal +25% damage.
bad morale made you play late and reduced the damage by 20%
luck decreased the damage.
the system sounds a bit complicated. the biggest problem : wouldn't that be a huge disadvantage to the losing army? not only they get slaughtered, but their chances get even lower due to disastrous morale, could be frustrating.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 15, 2010 02:06 AM |
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Quote:
At the moment it is not realistic when i.e. you army is halved on the battle field and your archers continue to have +8 Morale. They should scatter in fear and their morale is decreased.
Tell that to the Greeks at Thermopylae, the English at Agincourt and the Germans during both World Wars (to name a few). Being massively outnumbered doesn't necessarily hurt morale you know.
Quote:
IMO the Morale in H6 should not add extra turn as in H1-3/5 but give critical hit chance (double damage or 150% damage, or it should give +150% attack). Giving extra turn for Morale greatly decreases the Undead faction, can you remember castle in H3 when high morale almost doubles the human army strength and the undead gain nothing).
Given that this was the role of Luck, what do you now intent to do with that skill?
Quote:
Before H5 I had a website with ideas about heroes game and one of these ideas was to remake the attack-defense-damage system, so low attack vs high defense gives a chance to miss, with high morale this chance is nulled and low tier creature could attack high tier creature.
A chance to miss? IMO that would be a terrible idea, no more fun and much less realistic than what we currently use.
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted September 15, 2010 02:09 AM |
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Edited by Adrius at 02:11, 15 Sep 2010.
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@Whiterider:
I'm totally with ya lore-wise (except for the mood of creatures affecting the Hero), but those motivations are clearly expressed in the way that creatures gain morale, as said in your first post.
I simply do not see the need gameplay-wise, to further complicate things.
Sure, it might make the game more complex, and I'm totally in favor of faction individuality, but shouldn't there be some constant laws in the gameplay design?
Let's keep the basics of the game simple, and let the complexity come from combining these simple parts into a greater whole: DEPTH
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 15, 2010 11:25 AM |
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In order to make battles more fair, not dependent much on fortune, Morale and Luck should be under player's control. I mean each player may have some Morale/Luck points which he can spend within a battle when he wants to. Of course, for balance purposes, you have to spend more points for bigger stacks to move twice than to move just 1-monster stack. Also, any restriction on amount of points you can spend every turn is needed.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 15, 2010 11:39 AM |
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Fair....they already spoiled the game of almost all luck factors, which is one of the main things in Heroes universe. I wonder why this people just don't go play chess instead of keeping cutting here and there the most enjoyable things.
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Era II mods and utilities
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 15, 2010 01:07 PM |
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Probabilistic approach is awesome when you are a young person and don't think much about all those background mechanics things (which you SHOULD know if you want to win competitions), or you play just for fun. Chess is still alive only because this game has nothing with probabilities, thus providing equal chances to win for both sides. If you have ever played Disciples, you understand how annoying those constant misses might be! That's why this game will never provide fair competitions.
But, I understand clearly what you are speaking about!  Yes, it is GREAT feeling when you win although you should rather have lost (thank a lot, the Gold Birdie, for all the battles I won!)
Ha, but think about your opponent's feeling which SHOULD have win if only...
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 15, 2010 01:15 PM |
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But he didn't.
All those discussions about making the game more fair are contradicted by statistics. The best players still have the best win ratio. And if they lose a few games to luck factor, they still can win others to same luck factor. High morale or luck are part of the game, they provide an unique feeling when occur. Take them all out and Heroes leagues will desert soon I think. Because it will become clear that your chances to beat x or y are zero now, so why play?
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Era II mods and utilities
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 15, 2010 01:25 PM |
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Quote:
they provide an unique feeling when occur.
True
If one player always loses against another player, neither Morale nor Luck can help him then.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 15, 2010 01:35 PM |
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Yes, my opinion is that they play too little in the game to screw the rankings, while giving part of the fun needed in a MP game. And stories to tell afterwards. Just imagine a game without luck, morale or different situations (first conservatory stronger or weaker, Crag Hack in tavern first day, Ivor, slow in MG or not, expert earth early etc.).
Why remove luck and morale while allowing the specialists, for example? +30 damage is much more shocking than a pitiful morale you have in a battle. And after seeing the saves available I noticed that 90% of wins are because specialists used.
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Era II mods and utilities
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 15, 2010 01:36 PM |
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Ok, Salamandre. I propose another approach. What if yours and your opponent's Morale/Luck chances are being dynamically changed during a battle? I mean the game counts all the Morale/Luck events and adjusts current chances so they might always be as close to 'real' chances as possible. Thus we could avoid all 'unfair' cases (for example, you have +3 Morale but, anyway, your opponent is more lucky even with +1 Morale).
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 15, 2010 05:38 PM |
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Quote:
Inferno gains Morale when hardly crippling enemy army. Every time an enemy stack is killed or when an enemy stack is confused or other dark magic spell is cast. When enemies are scattered or when many demons are gated.
At the moment it is not realistic when i.e. you army is halved on the battle field and your archers continue to have +8 Morale. They should scatter in fear and their morale is decreased.
While I'm not sure I'm in favor of individual morale schemes for each faction (might indeed be too complicated), I'm all for having modifiers based on number of stacks taken down, such as:
-1 morale for each allied stack taken down
+1 morale for each enemy stack taken down
Notice that apart from adding both a strategic and realistic element to the game, this would also have the advantage of potentially reducing the benefit of having a large number of small fodder stacks to steal retaliation, because this will critically dampen your morale
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What will happen now?
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted September 15, 2010 07:38 PM |
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 15, 2010 09:12 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 21:13, 15 Sep 2010.
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I'm not to sure about the loss, or stacks thing, so here's the way I'd work it:
1. Calculate your total Power Rating and divide by the total Power Rating you started the fight with, you should get an answer between 0 and 1.
2. Compare this too the enemy, and if the difference is (yours-enemy's):
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0.4999 - 0.4: +2 to your morale, -2 to enemy morale
0.3999 - 0.3: +2 to your morale, -1 to enemy morale
0.2999 - 0.2: +1 to your morale, -1 to enemy morale
0.1999 - 0.1: +1 to your morale
0.0999 - -0.999: Nothing
-0.1 - -0.1999: +1 to enemy morale
-0.2 - -0.2999: -1 to your morale, +1 to enemy morale
-0.3 - -0.3999: -1 to your morale, +2 to enemy morale
-0.4 - -0.4999: -2 to your morale, +2 to enemy morale
...
Would this work, or is it too complicated?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 15, 2010 09:42 PM |
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I'm not sure that would be a good idea, as this will by default tip the scale in favor of the larger army. Thus, not only will you have a smaller army than your opponent, you will ALSO suffer a (potentially) big morale penalty (and he gets a bonus) to top things off, which will make it even more difficult for you to stand up to him.
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What will happen now?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 15, 2010 10:07 PM |
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Yeah well if it gets to that stage you've more-or-less lost anyway since you've lost a much bigger percentage of your original army than he has, which means you were either heavily outnumbered to begin with, or he was a better player (remember this works on the percentage of the original army sizes, the difference in size between the two original armies isn't accounted for).
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