|
| Thread: the disparity of wealth |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
posted October 26, 2010 10:03 PM |
|
|
1) Bixie's attitude has shown since the time he's been here, not just what he said in this thread.
2) I don't really consider it obscene that some rich person has diamond earrings when there are starving people in the world because I don't consider it significant.
I don't like elitist snobs any more than anyone else. But being elite is not just about being rich. A lot of rich people are very down to earth and don't "act" rich and certainly don't act elitist. On the other hand there are people who aren't rich who are elitist. It's elitism that I find offensive (and shallow). Being rich and able to afford luxuries doesn't bother me at all.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 26, 2010 10:21 PM |
|
|
What do you mean, Bixie's attitude? Can't he speak his opinion?
It's not about rich people we are talking or about being rich - it's about rich KIDS and making silly rich kids gifts that could feed a town. It's NOT about being envious of rich people or whatever.
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted October 26, 2010 10:25 PM |
|
Edited by Corribus at 22:42, 26 Oct 2010.
|
@Mytical
Nice deflection. But to answer your question:
S&P500 had a 12 month annual return (10/2009-10/2010) of 10.15% and the US Agg Bond Index over the same time period is 8.16%.
Source: https://www.tsp.gov/investmentfunds/monthly/monthlyReturns2.shtml
My retirement account is set to invest pretty aggressively, and my annual return last year was over 25%. Of course, it started the year almost rock bottom, so it could only go up. I doubt that degree of rise will continue. 
Yes CDs are quite low right now, but a few years ago annual returns were easily in the 4-6% range if I recall.
@DF
Quote:
And whatever takes luck is unfair by default.
That's a very interesting statement. One might instead argue that whatever is fair is based solely on luck.
Of course, by fair I take it you mean "equal", although "fairness" includes a touch of "moral rightness" to it that I find incongruous with equality. I guess we could argue over that but I doubt we'd end up in agreement even after years of discussion. Furthermore, by "luck" I suppose you mean "chance".
Nevertheless, even if we take your meaning of fair at face value, and agree that only perfect equality is fair, then I'd like to know how, exactly, a process based on pure chance is not fair. A process NOT based on pure chance would be unfair, because it is that type of process that leads to inequality. Put it this way, if I opened up banking accounts for everyone in the world with exactly $1000 dollars in them. And then for each person I said you can either keep your $1000, or I can flip a coin. In the case of heads, I double your money and in the case of tales, you lose it all. That type of "investment" would be about as much about luck as is possible, because it is simply chance and nothing else. Would you consider such a scheme fair? By your statement, you would not, which I find to be a contradiction in terms, if nothing else.
Beyond that, real investment in stocks or bonds is not random, not even a little. The only way it boils down to luck is if you don't know what you are doing, or you choose your investments randomly. In which case the luck involved is really only your fault. Which again violates the premise of your statement that investments are "unfair".
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
bLiZzArdbOY
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted October 26, 2010 10:25 PM |
|
|
A new Lexus purchased for an adult can feed a village just as easily as a Lexus purchased for a teenager can. A teenager is more likely to wreck that Lexus, but that's about the extent of the difference. In either case it's a completely unnecessary luxury, just like Heroes 5.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted October 26, 2010 11:13 PM |
|
|
@JJ, of course Bixie or anyone else can express their opinion. My point is that there are consequences to it, specifically that employers do NOT want people like that. But sure, he can be that way if he wants.
As for rich kids, no that doesn't bother me. As I said I consider it insignificant. I've known a couple of spoiled rich kids. I'm sure I've know more than two, but the ones I'm referring to were people who never worked a day in their life. Neither was the type to buy diamond doggie collars, but they were both spoiled and clueless about how "normal" people live.
Just a quick note regarding the talk about the stock market. For the average person I would very strongly recommend against putting money in the stock market. Unless you really know what you are getting into it's just gambling, not investing. It's very high risk and for financial security there is no need to gamble like that. You can easily end up losing every bit of it. I'm talking about buying stocks directly, not mutual funds (which are also risky but not as much).
@Myt, 6% is a commonly sited return on investment for a long term average. At any given time it could be above or below that amount. Interest rates are currently extremely low, but I've seen rates for safe conservative investments like CDs and T-Bills that were in the mid-high teens. 6% is also an average return for a diversified portfolio which would include safe investments with a mix of some higher risk investments. Until someone has saved enough to properly diversify they should stick with nice safe investments like savings accounts, CDs, etc. Before a person invests in anything longer term including stocks or even long term CDS, they should have high confidence that they will not need that money for anything else. Having sudden unexpected expenses and being forced to sell long term investments is a good way to lose a bunch of money.
|
|
Keksimaton
Promising
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
|
|
posted October 26, 2010 11:45 PM |
|
|
I see that there is a very clear juxtaposition between the good, hardworking and straight backed American people and the bunch of lazy, good for nothing Euro loafers who do not respect property or work.
____________
Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted October 26, 2010 11:53 PM |
|
|
Nice strawman.
Unless that's what you actually infer from the posts in this thread - in which case that tells us more about you than it does us.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted October 27, 2010 01:24 AM |
|
|
Doomforge
Quote:
That's why I'm repulsed by Elodin's "just work more". It doesn't work like that..
Sorry dude but you are wrong. I worked 3 jobs at once and saved lots of money. Did research. Made my plans. Scouted out a business location. Started my business.
Entrepeneurs do it all the time. Whiners do it 0% of the time. Oh, I'm repulsed by the incessant whining of those who complain that money requires work to obtain. If all a person does is complain that he does not have as much money as he wants he is pretty much guarenteed to not get the money he wants.
It is 100% guarenteed that if you work an extra job and save the money from the second job you will have more money than if you only worked the one job you started with.
Another big problem a lot of people have is that they "eat up" every raise they get. A raise is another opportunity to save money.
Work at whinning or work at earning more money. It is up to you.
Binabik
Quote:
The problem with you guys is that you're putting all your effort into finding reasons why something CAN'T be done instead of finding ways that it CAN be done. There is no sure way to become financially successful. However, a defeatist attitude is certainly not the way to do it. Whether it's financial success or anything else, that's a route to failure. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy.
Jolly Joker
Quote:
The point here isn't whether someone can't be rich or not. The point was, that with so much poverty around - NOT self-inflicted poverty, I might add - it can be considered obscene that spoiled brats of the rich, wealthy and famous run around with diamond coated doggie collars or what the hell is just in.
There is nothing obscene with me giving my children something nice if I wish to. It is MY money. And as mentioned before, I gave over 50% of my income to charity, which NO Marxist politician to my knowledge does. It is my money and I'll bless my children and others how I want to.
What IS obscene is someone thinking they are entitled to the fruit of the labor of others and that the government should steal it for them from "those who have too much stuff already."
I'd say that in developed nations there are actually more spoiled little poor brats than spoiled little rich brats.
Many poor kids are taught the "entitlement" mentality. That they are entitled to this or that without ever working for it. They see Mommy sit on the couch eatingg bon-bons and chips and watching Oprah all day and the government sending a check to take care of the food, rent, ect, and think they are entitled to the same thing.
The poor little spoiled brats become spoiled teenage brats and some turn to crime to "get my just desserts." Others just use politicians to perpetuate the cycle.
Slightly off topic, but I'd like to see a few changes in the tax code to so that it does not punish people for working more.
1) You should only be taxed on one job. Let's say whicher job pays you the most.
2) Since 40 hours is the "standard" work week there should be no tax at all on income earned from working additional hours.
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 27, 2010 01:48 AM |
|
Edited by Fauch at 02:00, 27 Oct 2010.
|
you are not blaming the kids?
hum, not everyone can or even wants to be an entrepreneur.
and lol about saving money. how do you expect people who work 10 hours per day and don't make enough money to live to save anything?
and work can be so pointless, we spend countless hours working so that we can buy stuffs that will hopefully help us forget momentarily our miserable lifes and works. and our works often consist in producting those things 
and when we produce more than we "need", we destroy what is left? without a thought for poor people?
Quote:
And as mentioned before, I gave over 50% of my income to charity
are you bragging? you can be millionaire and give 80% of your income, and it will be very impressive, but the guy who is living in extreme poverty and will give only one dollar to someone poorer than him makes a bigger sacrifice than you. hopefully, you aren't trying to make people who don't give to charity feel guilty.
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted October 27, 2010 08:06 AM |
|
|
No deflection Corribus, just no desire to debate pointlessly. Continue on with the discussion, have nothing more I wish to add.
____________
Message received.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 27, 2010 08:13 AM |
|
|
There are a couple of things I'd like to clarify in this thread - which isn't about investment strategies, I might add.
Of course, as it is, rich parents have the right to buy their children everything they would like and can afford - a Lexus, a Rolex, a palace, a wineyard, a Picasso, whatever. And for most this seems to be perfectly ok.
Of course, POOR parents have the same right then, haven't they? Poor parents, no matter whether they earn their money or get it from the government (it doesn't matter where the rich people have their money from, so it can't matter for the poor ones either) are as well entitled to drown their beloved kids in electronics, (used or fake) designer clothing, allowance, cell phones, fancy food and whatever else the young princes and princesses may desire or their parents find adequate for them, and let's not forget the Grandmas of this world. So that must be perfectly ok as well then.
In that case, I don't know what the fuss is all about - everything is just fine and dandy as it is.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted October 27, 2010 08:46 AM |
|
|
Both Elodin and Fauch have a point here. Working more should bring more money but if you don't have the knowledge for quality work, 10 hours of day by cleaning the trash cans will not earn you enough money.
People should understand that today you have to raise your children intelligently and make them understand that their future is made in school and superior studies. If they skip that part, there are high chances that they will become the next whiners, as most around. The times when you could have a "play with ball" adolescence and choose what you will do later are over.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted October 27, 2010 09:32 AM |
|
|
We've had this thread like a million times already and it always ends up in the same spot with people whining about the otherside. We are there now so I'm not going to touch that. It's a hopeless endeavour.
Quote:
Slightly off topic, but I'd like to see a few changes in the tax code to so that it does not punish people for working more.
1) You should only be taxed on one job. Let's say whicher job pays you the most.
2) Since 40 hours is the "standard" work week there should be no tax at all on income earned from working additional hours.
This I just have to touch. I find it a very interesting idea. It could work in theory.
But let's take two cases:
The other one is a specialised doctor who makes 500€ an hour from his other work and thus gains benefit of 200€ or so.
The other guy, let's say a regular clerk at supermarket, works at your regular burger place with 6€ an hour gaining the benefit of 2,4€ or so.
This seems a tad imbalanced to me. Maybe we should have somekind of indicator to what is another job and what is just working overtime in his own field then? Surely the doctor studied for his profession(with his parents', bank's or someone else's money) but should that give him the benefit for both jobs? Or should he apply for a regular job, like warehouse worker and disregard his skill? Or study another profession altogether? That would be fair but it would be impractical from society's standpoint. Of course we could say that most well payed people won't take another job and disregard the whole problem that way. Still, the issue on the base stands. Interesting idea to play around with.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted October 27, 2010 09:51 AM |
|
|
Elodin, my response is again:
Quote:
yet you still haven't noticed the world doesn't begin and end at the United States.
Just because you live in a rich country that makes it possible to do so in the first place doesn't mean you can apply your solution to every part of the world and treat people who genuinly can't get a job that pays them enough to save money as commies.
Quote:
and lol about saving money. how do you expect people who work 10 hours per day and don't make enough money to live to save anything?
Exactly. Elodin doesn't seem to understand that no matter in how many "heritage" discussions he's in. Combine it with his seemingly irreparable attitude towards world (US-centered) and the effect is his viewpoint being biased and situational to the extreme.
@Cor
Not a contradiction, I'd say! Equal ground is fine, but since the massive luck factor (50% chance affecting a single decision that makes you win or lose your life) it's not fair either.
Everything imho that involves that kind of "luck factor" isn't fair. It's only fair when everything is given the same choice & it takes effort instead of dice roll.
Genuine effort means working for it and dedication. Not getting your wallet pumped by rich daddy.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 27, 2010 10:00 AM |
|
|
Please.
Thankfully, not everyone is paid by the time they work. There ARE those who are paid for accomplishment, independent of time worked.
Moreover, with those rules everyone would strife for two half-jobs
That way a "job" would be 20 hours a week, and you could take two jobs anyway, paying taxes only for one.
The whole idea is pretty counter-productive anyway. You are not supposed to fight for jobs and the right to work MORE. You asupposed to distribute the available work as equally as possible so hat everyone gets a chance to earn money.
If you want to work 24/7 become your own boss.
Salamandre, I understand that parents have the right to teach their children whatever they want, as long as it is legal, and I understand that parents have the right to give their children all the nice things they want them to give.
So parents can raise their kids alright to become "whiners" and people convinced they are entitled to everything they see fit to, whether they are rich or poor.
Nothing to discuss, actually.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted October 27, 2010 10:10 AM |
|
|
Btw, pretty funny: while the world tries to fight for humans to work less (via automatization, better management, worktime use), Elodin fights to work MORE. 
I work 4 hours per week. Why? because I have nothing more to do afterwards: I'm meant to complete a specific task and I do so in few hours. Then I'm free for the rest of the week. How would I work "more"? Bug my boss to give me a different task? well mr. Elodin I can't because there is NO other task I can do.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted October 27, 2010 10:46 AM |
|
|
Some people are still missing the point (or at least part of the point). For many things it doesn't matter where you live or how much money you make. The point is that if you work more then you make more. That doesn't always apply, but it's the general rule.
Another point is that people have no room to complain about not having things when they ADMIT that they don't want to work. They complain about people who DO have things, but they are not willing to work harder to make their own lives better.
The other point is that the vast majority of people who get rich do it by working their @ss off and saving. There are far too many people with the false idea that people who have things have somehow gotten them by being born rich, or by cheating, or by talking advantage of people. Yes, those kinds of people do exist, but the majority are not like that.
Another important point is that it's not about getting rich. It's about making your life better than it is now. If a person works at it, things will get better, very slowly over time. That's the goal, not to suddenly have everything, and not to get rich. Everything we've been trying to say here is the way to do it for most people. There are a lot of young people on this board who just want to have everything all at once. It doesn't work that way. It takes years. It takes sacrifice. It takes patience. It takes motivation. It takes good attitude. And yes, some luck helps too.
Constantly being concerned about what others have will only make you unhappy. That's basically what this thread is about. I completely agree that there are kids who are spoiled and Daddy Bigbucks give them expensive toys that they didn't do anything to earn. But it doesn't bother me and I don't let it affect me. What some small minority of people do has no bearing on my own life and what I make of that life. Even if I thought it was unfair (which I don't) then I still shouldn't let it affect me. It changes nothing to think like that and only leads to dissatisfaction with my own situation. That in turn leads to unhappiness.
Those principles are the same no matter where you live. There are HC members who live places where they make a heck of a lot less than the people in this thread. I have not done international traveling (unless you count Canada where you don't even know you crossed a border), but without traveling I have no doubt that one thing is common no matter where in the world you go. You can have two people side by side who both do the same job and get paid the same amount. One will be happy and one will not. There could be a lot of reasons for that, but the things that have already been mentioned in this thread are very common contributors to it. Work is a major part of our life. So they way we accept it and relate to it have a major impact on our happiness.
I repeat again, being concerned about what others have that you don't is just going to lead to unhappiness.
OK, I caught this just before posting.
Quote:
How would I work "more"? Bug my boss to give me a different task?
Yes, that's what I do. If I don't have anything to do I will practically beg my boss to give me something. There is almost always something that needs to be done. If there is nothing else to do find something. Go shovel the snow from the parking lot. Read a software manual. Find some project that will help. Get on the internet and learn more about your job. Organize or clean something.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted October 27, 2010 10:55 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Those principles are the same no matter where you live.
I'm working 4 hours per week and getting more money than Chinese worker working 20hours per day. My work is definitively less hard, too. The prices are about the same for luxury items throughout the world, so it does matter very much where do you live. Even though the principle might be the same... getting 1 dollar for 10hours or 1.5 dollars for 15hours won't make you rich, or drag you out of poverty, I fear. It will only put a strain on your body and through lack of rest and sleep, you will most likely succumb to illnesses later in life, mostly heart problems and atherosclerosis.
Quote:
Yes, that's what I do. If I don't have anything to do I will practically beg my boss to give me something. There is almost always something that needs to be done. If there is nothing else to do find something. Go shovel the snow from the parking lot. Read a software manual. Find some project that will help. Get on the internet and learn more about your job. Organize or clean something.
I'm not sitting in an office watching the paint dry. I show up there once per week, get a task, and do it at home (transport projects). And I'm happy with it too. Point is, even if I wanted more, I won't get more. BEcause there is nothing else to do. We have 1 project per 1-2 months and each team member contributes in a specific way. I'm not going to interfere with others' work. I do what is required of me and that's all.
I hope one day office work will be reduced to a minimum with automatization and smart applications. Why? Because it's boring! same way assembly line is.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
|
|
posted October 27, 2010 10:57 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Someone like Bixie has a horrible attitude. He's exactly the kind of person a company does not want. Someone like him is a manager's nightmare. He's the kind of person who would get fired because of his bad attitude and then instead of blaming himself, he uses it as "proof" that companies are evil
I know I sound like I'm a little communist and a managers worst nightmare, but at least I haven't bent over, opened my sphincter and told the rich b**ches and the fat cats up on the top to ram their throbbing members home.
Considering I have had about 3 jobs so far, none of which have fired me for any legitimate reason, all of which I left due to me either going off to University, was merely a temporary position, or I am still working in, I know how to act around managers and staff members. people know about what I find objectionable, and likewise, I know what they find objectionable, and we temper our conversation around that. It's called socialising and keeping good contacts and making the work place bearable. I'm sure you've heard of it.
I am a part of the capitalist system, whether I like it or not. I pay rent for the house I live in, I pay for university fees and for food, I work at a games store that pays me about £5 an hour. I know I am part of "The system" and there is no getting away from it. The only way I can keep my morals in this sort of climate is to buy fairtrade where I can, give as much money to charity as I can afford, and work hard enough at Uni until I can get a comfortable job where I can exercise my morals as much as possible. It's absolute pittence, I know, but it's all I can really manage at the moment.
the thing is, there is one thing to be co-operative with the system, and it's quite another to be completely submissive. We, the people, have precious little in the way of actual power in the world we inhabit now, considering that the majority of the corporations in the world are owned by only a handful of people. boycotting no longer works, protest need permission slips and paperwork up the jacksie, Voting ends up with getting in the same milquetoast lefty or the same hard-case righty, and revolution scares people way to much. This is why I support sites like Wikileaks, because whilst they don't rouse people to revolution, they leak information to prevent those at the top from doing anything too drastic.
This is the reason why I find the people on "My sweet 16" so objectionable. the opulance and decadence of it, and the almost complete disregard for the amount of money that these little fleshwastes are spending whilst there are people I know and work with who would kill for that money. and as I say, with the gap between rich and poor growing and growing by the year, we are taking a step back into fuedalism at this rate, with these worthless human beings spending a bloody fortune to get their nails done, whilst those who work until their backs break get little more than pittence.
____________
Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted October 27, 2010 11:03 AM |
|
|
Doom, Elodin should know that work is not starting and ending in USA but you should equally know that it does not start and end in Poland. I am Romanian and my work is payed in my country 150 euros/month, while 4500 euros in France, for a 16 hours/week base. Move on, or suffer. It is not easy to leave its mother country, but it is even harder to stay and endlessly whine about how unfair it is.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
| |
|
|
