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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted November 23, 2010 01:03 AM |
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Sleep
Alright guys (and girls).
Pretty much my entire life I've had trouble falling asleep. When I was around 7-9 years old, a tiny brat, I could lay awake for hours and hours either reading Donald Duck or just not being able to sleep. Often 'til 2-3 at night, which is VERY late at that young age.
When I got older I stopped reading Donald Duck, and started reading books instead. I started trying to fall asleep at reasonable hours, but most of the time I failed miserably.
Then I got seriously depressed, some of you guys on here might remember me during those times. Here I often stopped sleeping altogether, going 1-2 days without sleep at all. And even after those 1-2 days I had trouble falling asleep.
Then finally I got out of the rough times and now I still have trouble sleeping! I mostly go to bed at reasonable hours (not during the weekends, but still). I have tried different kinds of tea, which doesn't help at all. Warm milk, doesn't help at all. Taking a walk, just gets me more awake. Do something boring ... well, I've done so much boring stuff I am simply used to it. Read a book, I usually find books interesting. I went to the doctor and got a very powerful lamp for light-treatment. Didn't help at all. Waking up early and then trying to sleep at reasonable hours doesn't help, as I don't get more tired when night comes again. I've tried having loads and loads of .. bed-activities just before going to sleep, works very opposite. I am against pretty much all kinds of medicine and stuff like that, so I won't take sleeping pills.
So now I am desperate. It is a really big issue being tired and exhausted all day, and I am afraid of how it will affect me once I get a job. I am therefor asking you, fellow HC'ers for advice to fight this cruel curse cast upon me (or something like that).
Any ideas on how to get really sleepy, tired, etc... ?
Really hope for some good functioning advice from you people! 
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted November 23, 2010 01:10 AM |
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Edited by Adrius at 01:13, 23 Nov 2010.
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Hmm... have you tried doing a very serious workout that just completely drains you of energy before you go to bed?
Like, I dunno... skipping ropes 'til you fall over from exhaustion?
There are also certain ways that you can fool your body into thinking you're sleepy, thus inducing sleep paralysis and entering lucid dreaming (or just dream normally if you'd like that, lucid dreaming is kinda awesome though.). But that's kinda advanced, though I know the tricks.
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted November 23, 2010 01:14 AM |
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Problem is I don't stay exhausted for long. A couple of minute, max, and then I am back in the game!
I tried exhausting activities before sleeping several times, but still nothing. And with my workout routines these days I should be more exhausted than ever before. Still nothing...
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 23, 2010 01:25 AM |
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Prescribed drugs. You're not going to fix a condition like that by changing your habits.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted November 23, 2010 04:48 AM |
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There have been a couple of threads about this but I could only find one on short notice. This one.
Try changing your sleep temperature. You can experiment with decreasing it, but increasing it is more likely to help. One trick is to start off cool, then after an hour or so when you start to feel kind of groggy, pull on another blanket.
You already tried the high intensity lamp, so I assume you understand the circadian rhythm and why light helps some people. Also make sure that you sleep in absolute darkness. Even small amounts of light from LED clocks or other sources can make a difference. If you tried the lights you should probably do it for at least a month. It can easily take a month or more to "reset" your sleeping pattern.
You might try Valarian root. Scientific research hasn't shown a strong correlation, but it's been used for centuries and a lot of people say it works. It can take a long time though, like several weeks. Read up on it first because there can be side affects that you want to watch for.
What about diet? Has anything changed? Caffeine? What about something in your body changing, like the way you metabolize sugar? Even natural sources of sugar like fruit juice can keep you awake. (I can't drink fruit juice less than a few hours before going to bed)
Do you snore? That can keep you awake. Also you might get episodes of sleep apnea (a breathing disorder when you sleep). Do you sleep on your back? Try sleeping on both your right and left sides, it can make a difference.
I think it was in the thread I linked to that FOG recommended spinach and tomato(?). I never tried it but I read a little about it and there might be something to it.
About exercise. Do it earlier in the day, not before you go to bed. You want to increase your basal metabolism, not exhaust yourself just before bed.
When you get up in the morning do NOT lay back down or even sit down. Start doing things and get your blood circulating. It doesn't need to be strenuous, just basic household chores like doing laundry or cleaning are good enough. You don't have to do it long, just enough to limber up your muscles and get some blood circulating.
If you do strenuous exercise you should probably finish at least a few hours before going to bed. Exhaustion and sleepiness are two different things. You can be physically exhausted but still pumped up.
Try not to get pissed or frustrated about not sleeping. I've always found that fighting it never helps, it just makes it worse.
If nothing else works and it gets bad enough, you might have to use drugs. I avoided drugs for a long time myself, but it literally became a matter of survival for me.
Some of the new drugs are fairly safe and non habit forming. Unisom is pretty good. They use two different chemicals depending on if you get the capsule or tablet form. It might sell under a different name there, but the chemical you want is doxylamine succinate. In the states it's a non-prescription drug, but it's better than a lot of the prescription ones. It's pretty safe and non habit forming unless you start taking it every time you can't get to sleep in 15 minutes.
It can take a month or more to reset your sleep cycles. So keep that in mind if you use sleeping pills. Take them nightly for 2-4 weeks and make sure that your body fully adapts to the cycle.
If you can afford it try completely changing your sleep environment by staying in a hotel or something. Maybe even try camping out for a few days and see if that kicks in a new routine.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 23, 2010 05:08 AM |
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I always try to read a book before going to sleep, even if it's only for ten minutes. If I don't, I just lay there in bed reviewing my day and thinking about everything I have to do tomorrow. But if I read, it takes my mind off my real life. Instead of thinking about all my real-life obligations I think instead about what I just read, and that usually allows me to fall asleep pretty quickly.
You also have to experiment with what kinds of conditions keep you from falling asleep. For example, I absolutely cannot fall asleep when somoene else is awake in the room. I also cannot fall asleep if my wife isn't already asleep - if she's up doing something, I can't fall asleep until she's already gone to bed. Weird, but there it is.
I'd also suggest trying different sleep schedules. If 12AM - 8 AM isn't working for you, try 10 PM-6 AM or something.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted November 23, 2010 06:34 AM |
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Blizzard; I'm against drugs unless it's necessary to save a life.
Binabik; My apartment is really cold, increasing heat further would increase the electric bill too much. Gonna buy one more (third) blanket when it gets colder.
I used the lamp for three months, but with no effect whatsoever. I always sleep in complete darkness, making sure to block out all the light I can possibly find, and aren't happy until I can't see anything at all. Makes it hard to find the bed, but easier to sleep!
No diet-change at all. I only drink coffee in the mornings, and little sugar at night-time. Though sugar doesn't really make a big deal for me, I can easily fall asleep after eating sweets and other times when I haven't I cannot sleep at all. Just doesn't make any sense to me 
I can proudly say I've never ever snored my entire life! I also almost always sleep on my right side. Sometimes on my left.
Exhaustion before bedtime is nothing any guy should say no to. Alternative excercise  ... when working out in the gym I usually do it 5-10 hours before going to sleep.
About the moving around when waking up, it's really easier said than done standing up from the bed when you're tired and exhausted But yeah, I usually try doing that. Starting to make a light meal or something.. never able to eat a big breakfast, which stinks as I like to eat lots.
Yeah, trying to stay positive and find a way to fall asleep better! Didn't sleep tonight, hoping I'll be so tired I'll fall asleep early tomorrow
Pretty much everything over here is prescription, if it can qualify as a drug. Though as mentioned before I dislike drugs of any kind alot.. I don't even take pills for headache.
Sleeping other places is pretty much out of the question with little money and winter-time but yeah, I switched side in the bed at least!
I'll try making tea off of Valarian root, or eating it raw .. iunno how those things are done. Thanks for the post Binabik, really appreciated a really great post!
Corribus; Well, I've tried both those options. Reading makes me curious as to what happens next in the book, and if I think .. well, I just start thinking too much and get wide awake.
I can also fall asleep at any time and under pretty much any condition, as long as I am tired. At least as far as I know. I've fallen asleep at floors, outdoors, sitting, on top of people, under people, in water, in bright light, etc.. etc.. alright, much might be under slight influence by stuff. But much also is not. I haven't found anything specific that stops me from sleeping, or helps. I am also trying to get something like 10-6 as that works best alongside jobs.
Thanks for advices so far
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 23, 2010 07:47 AM |
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Wog, this is a serious thing.
I suggest you simply start reading here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insomnia
if you didn't do so, and work yourself onwards. It looks like you can eliminate a lot of possible reasons directly, still there is the question whether they are organic or mental reasons (or both).
If it's mental you may try warm baths before sleeping with lavender or lemon balm. You may try and support this with other methods of relaxation. Edmund Jacobson developed good techniques for muscle relaxation; for a mental relaxation some meditational exercise, going into this direction, may help.
What about the bed? Did you ever try a water bed? Should be free-flow, since the rocking is what might have the wished-for effect. Maybe you know someone with a water bed to test that or you can arrange test-sleeping somewhere.
Alternatively try a hammock.
Another thing to try might be, trying deliberately to stay awake when lying in bed, with the hope to get the contrary effect.
This can easily be tried, but I still urge you to do everything possible to find the reason for your problem.
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disturbed-gnu
Supreme Hero
Pro Bacon Vodka Brewer
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posted November 23, 2010 08:04 AM |
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Drink warm milk with booze.. I think that it would help..
I hate it myself, but i drink it when i have a cold and such, and i remember i get tired when i drink it..
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted November 23, 2010 09:02 AM |
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Ah yes.... sleep 
My card is on this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_syndrome
If you have this, it means you will have trouble falling asleep during the "normal hours", and the "normal hours" where you are suppose to sleep are located elsewhere on the clock.
I assume I have this, for a really simple reason: No matter how tired or awake I am, I never really feel the need of sleeping during night, but roughly around 6am sometime I actually feel the need of sleeping.
If I stay awake all night and go to sleep at 6am, then I will spend less amount of hours sleeping, and I will be more well rested in contrast to if I went to bed 10pm, or 11pm, etc.
I also have severe problems getting up 7-8am in contrast to waking up at 6am, I am usually drowsy and tired troughout the day towards 3-4pm, when it starts getting ignored or something.
I am going at normal school, waking up at 6am during normal days, I feel exhausted and tired troughout the entire day, some time after I get home at roughly 4:15pm, I am still utterly tired, but the body seems to finally start completely ignoring it, which means I can't just jump to bed at the time.
When night finally comes, I go to bed 9pm or 10pm, and I never feel the need of actual sleep, just completely and utterly exhaustion to the point where it is really really annoying.
Adjusting room tempratures and experimenting with blanking heat does not really help, I always sleep better the later at night I go to bed, it only helps on the innital phase of falling asleep.
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted November 23, 2010 10:57 AM |
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Quote:
Anyway, are there some emotions that automatically makes you tired?
Nope. When I get tired it strikes pretty suddenly and if I wait too long then I am fully awake again.
As to the rest you wrote, well, mostly stuff I've tried before but without luck. Might be caused by insomnia, but I don't really like being dramatic
Wish I could fall asleep in cars, on trains, etc.. Once I went almost 80 hours without sleep due to travel.
Quote:
What about the bed? Did you ever try a water bed?
Dunno anyone who has one, cannot afford one. Would be really cool to have though! Just I don't know if it would hold, those must break easily.
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_syndrome
Yess, ser ut som oss norsker sliter en del med den er nok på grunn av hvordan lyset forandrer seg hele året.
(This is somewhat what I suffer from, though I many timr don't fall asleep at all, or wake up early).)
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Oh, and I don't look like Billy Idol anymore. Not since may =]
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 23, 2010 11:01 AM |
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Well, you are not alone. The last night when I sleep was 20 years ago. Since then, I only sleep between 3 PM and 10 PM, and if can't, due to work constraints, I skip them. Nights are something I am familiar with.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 23, 2010 11:24 AM |
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Nah, water beds are perfectly safe. Don't know where you live, but you may arrange something with shops that sell them. Also hospitals use them for fire victims, but that's long shot.
Better, maybe, to try out a hammock. That is not expensive, and the only problem will be to fix it correctly in a room, but that SHOULD be possible. The swinging/rocking should have a soothing effect.
BOTH should be possible to try before actually starting to buy.
IF you test a water bed, though, you have to look for a free-flow one, not for a "calmed" one.
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trashid
Famous Hero
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posted November 23, 2010 04:26 PM |
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Do you eat anything before going to bed?
Also i try to not open my eyes at all, it can take an hour of waiting, but it works for me. If i start creating something in my head, then i can fall into some kind of half-sleep trance, which really helps.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 23, 2010 04:57 PM |
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I haven't ever had serious insomnia so I can't speak from experience in that regards but I've had some nights when I just could not sleep.
First thing I would go with would be constant conditions for sleeping. Steady day rythm, get up at 6 and go to sleep at 11, for example. Every day, don't do weekend differences and don't stretch either one. Make sure your body knows you're going to be going to bed at 11 every day. Get home at 10, for example, and do the same routine every day after coming home. Your body will learn to recognise that and settle down. This will take time and it is a major pain in the ass but if you take it like that it's not going to work so if you do try, try to keep a positive mind.
Little things, I've noticed make sleeping harded.
-Don't shower late it will make the sking dry and uncomfortable.
-Don't eat a lot.
-Don't eat late.
-Don't smoke, drink etc. before bed.
-Don't exercise late.
-Don't think/read/play/watch TV or in general do something that makes your brain start up. Both fantasizing and serious thinking are bad.
-Don't get exited about tomorrow.
-Don't let yourself get too tired, there's a certain area of tiredness where sleeping is hard because of all the hormones produced to counter it.
Hope you get over it without meds. It's never good to be dependant on something like that. And sleep with meds is usually closer to unconciousness than sleep.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted November 23, 2010 05:39 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 17:39, 23 Nov 2010.
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Quote:
So now I am desperate. It is a really big issue being tired and exhausted all day,
You know that is a symptom of no REM "during" sleep. So "maybe" it is the 'source' of the getting-to-sleep-problems?
JJ is right this is a serious thing, so if you try all of these good ideas and still can get this solved?...<IMO> don't delay getting professional help.
I have trouble too these days and it is because of the roller-coaster ride of (pain. vs a pain-killer).
"Combinations of the posted ideas" could work where one alone does not.
JJ is right about waterbeds, I had one over 10 years with 0 problems.
Bin brought up Apena. A sleep study is necssary to know if you have it. My brother was exhausted like you and now he has to where a mask-device. It made a big difference in his life. Bin also mentioned Doxy-stuff and that helped me at times when used with other efforts.
OFS and Corr are spot-on about "senses and conditions". Two thoughts about this; One (TM) methods can help. Esp. deep slow breathing techniques as in Yoga and muscle relaxation rotation methods and the other is (as in my case) my mental focus. Silly as this sounds, seeing myself calm, getting groggy and falling asleep does assist other methods.
One thing about books, make the book be on a subject that you cannot get pumped up about in any way. "How to use Smurfs in Battle-Formation" or something...keep your humor.
Hope you are past this soon.
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"Do your own research"
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted November 23, 2010 08:57 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_syndrome
Yess, ser ut som oss norsker sliter en del med den er nok på grunn av hvordan lyset forandrer seg hele året.
(This is somewhat what I suffer from, though I many timer don't fall asleep at all, or wake up early).)
Nei, det kan ikke være forsinket søvnfasesyndrom om du blir bedre og verre med årstidene
Just being extremely sleep disturbed is ulrelated, I have a friend who also suffers from the really annoying way our seasons work.
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted November 23, 2010 09:27 PM |
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Heldigvis bor jeg ikke i nord, der hadde det gått helt til helvette. Lyst hele sommern og mørkt hele vintern går jo faen meg i dvale der oppe.
Well, off to bed! Tonight I am so tired I won't have to test anything .. but next time I am tired I will go through the list in here! Nightynight!
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted November 24, 2010 08:18 PM |
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Good natt kjære landsmann, god natt
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