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| Thread: Why we don't want heroes on the battlefield? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Invictus
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 24, 2010 09:34 PM |
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The series should appropriately be named "Commanders of might and magic." However, it's obvious that Heroes sound a lot better, and there's a reason why some movies are called Clash of Titans even though there aren't any titans.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted December 24, 2010 10:03 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 22:17, 24 Dec 2010.
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Quote:
That's why I like campaigns scenarios that has a very challenging final battle, like Captain Swift in Tawni's second scenario. Conquer everything else, gather 70+ black dragons, overpower Captain Swift's 100+ black dragons, done.
Actually, you need just some fodder - Tawni can "assassinate" the Captain and retreat from that battle to win the scenario. That's just one of many exploits in H4. Those are the main reason the game flopped. Like it was said many times, it wasn't the ideas that were bad, it was the implementation. And it was poor because 3DO didn't have enough time and resources anymore.
Invictus has made some great points, but it's too late to fix H4. The Equilibris team has introduced some nice but minor changes and missed an opportunity there. I've been told Nival wanted to experiment with commanders in H6 or some such, but Ubisoft has replaced the developers. I also agree with Bones_xa: an army of several heroes was the best feature in H4. Quote:
Real heroes don't fight themselves. Real heroes command other men/things to fight.
On the contrary, those are generals, chiefs etc. All the great heroes from history or tales fought themselves.
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Invictus
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 25, 2010 02:05 AM |
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Real heroes (like Alexander, Genghis Khan, etc.) probably never killed more 20 men in a single battle. Even Hercules had to take one hydra/cerebus at a time, wheresa HOMM heroes can kill several hydras and dozens of crerebi in a hit. lol
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Dj0rel
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 27, 2010 11:25 AM |
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Quote:
Real heroes (like Alexander, Genghis Khan, etc.) probably never killed more 20 men in a single battle. Even Hercules had to take one hydra/cerebus at a time, wheresa HOMM heroes can kill several hydras and dozens of crerebi in a hit. lol
Err, wrong. Those people were leaders not heroes. People who are considered heroes on battlefield are those who killed most of enemy troops.
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Invictus
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 27, 2010 08:37 PM |
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Edited by Invictus at 01:32, 28 Dec 2010.
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You mean a Champion that kills 40 archers is a hero? Not in the HOMM world! (he remains is a mere "creature")
HOMM heroes are traditionally more like leaders (like Alexander, Genghis, Caesar). In H4, since they engage in combat, they are either similar to Hercules (solo hero), or warrior-leaders (like Achilles). Neither Hercules or Achilles was real, though.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 31, 2010 04:41 AM |
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Quote:
I think problem was that it was poorly balanced, not the concept itself.
Like people say, if you pumped your Hero with Combat skill, he became über powerful - however, if you didn't choose to spend 20 levels there, he only survived if you doped him with potions of immortality. And without Combat, he didn't serve any role on battlefield but to cast spells, which made the whole idea of placing him there useless.
However, if Combat effects were something you gained automatically with leveling and they were better balanced, it could have worked fine.
Possibly, but I hardly can think of some way to balance the thing well.
If the hero is an uber-powerful unit, either by Might or Magic, it HAS to be realistically killable by other units- Otherwise it just becomes an untouchable source of effects and damage that the units cannot respond to, which is what it is in other HoMMs. If he/she is too hard to kill or if the whole army must be killed before killing him, it just gets too similar to other HoMMs.
However, if you accept that ordinary units can kill the hero, and the hero is powerful and relevant as it usually can get in Heroes of Might and Magic, then the combat ends up being all about taking the hero down.
I find hard to find a third option in this problem, and these two are both unsatisfying - to me at least-
Perhaps giving the choice of having the hero join the frontline or not could be a decent way to address this.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 31, 2010 08:29 PM |
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It is a bit weird that the hero can't be attacked and killed.
Quote:
Even Hercules had to take one hydra/cerebus at a time, wheresa HOMM heroes can kill several hydras and dozens of crerebi in a hit.
a single crusader in H4 could already beat 10 cerberi lol 
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Duncan
Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
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posted December 31, 2010 11:42 PM |
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Quote:
Perhaps giving the choice of having the hero join the frontline or not could be a decent way to address this.
Been having this on my mind too, but then it would be a halfhearted concept. In the end we would see a common pattern: the heroes creep and battle neutrals in early game, but will never show in the final battle.
In H4, as I remember it, it also brings a troubling but significant consequence with regard to magic school: uber-Order magic. When the enemy's objective is to only take you down i/o the entire army, the easiest but most logical counter is to make them fighting each other. Other magic schools won't help.
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But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it.
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evinin
Supreme Hero
Servant of Asha
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posted January 01, 2011 12:01 AM |
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Edited by evinin at 00:02, 01 Jan 2011.
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Quote:
In H4, as I remember it, it also brings a troubling but significant consequence with regard to magic school: uber-Order magic. When the enemy's objective is to only take you down i/o the entire army, the easiest but most logical counter is to make them fighting each other. Other magic schools won't help.
I agree. With a strong hero with also combat skills Hypnotize just made my day. Still there is one really simple spell (but again Order magic):
Dispel - 2 mana
Combat - Blessing/Curse
Dispel removes all spells from the target.
But Life magic could also help:
Exorcism - 2 mana
Combat - Blessing
Exorcism removed all negative spells from a single friendly target.
Divine Intervention also successfully removes Hypnotize if the one who cast it uses it. I don't know how it works the other way around.
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Invictus
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 01, 2011 04:54 PM |
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Edited by Invictus at 16:55, 01 Jan 2011.
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Quote:
Been having this on my mind too, but then it would be a halfhearted concept. In the end we would see a common pattern: the heroes creep and battle neutrals in early game, but will never show in the final battle.
I prefer the semi-optional implementation (where heroes can sit out only if their relative army size meets a certain requirement, and can be forced out at any time this requirement fails to be met in the middle of battle). It makes sense to have heroes not show up in the final battle, because when you have a big ass army, the hero shouldn't be doing the fighting.
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Mosqua
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 02, 2011 10:26 AM |
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Thesis general
Thesis no 1
"Heroes are so strong that it can destroy an entire army"
This is true, when Heroes have 20,30 lvl. Did you do a normal scenario, the hero of this level?
Thesis no 2
"Heroes at low levels are useless."
In fight with neutral army Heroes fend of the counterattacks. Spellcaster heroes abate army in battle. Barbarian and Archer is actived person in battle. Other passively help (Lord economy; Thief blitzkrieg; Knight +\- death give bonus for army).
Thesis no 3
"Army made up of Heroes is unbeaten."
Look thesis no 1.
Quote:
Real heroes (like Alexander, Genghis Khan, etc.) probably never killed more 20 men in a single battle. Even Hercules had to take one hydra/cerebus at a time, wheresa HOMM heroes can kill several hydras and dozens of crerebi in a hit. lol
You don't know to polish military history, how you speak this thesis. You find good description about knight "Zawisza Czarny", noble "Michał Wołodyjowski" etc.
In addition, I will say that this is a fantasy world. Do you remember Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli from the LOTR? This is heroes and killer's tens orc's and uruk's in one battle. This is one example. If you want more - read the book .
And remember - this is a simplification. Normally, the fight against the 100 orc's vs 100 knight's = few hours - here are a few seconds.
Quote:
I prefer the semi-optional implementation (where heroes can sit out only if their relative army size meets a certain requirement, and can be forced out at any time this requirement fails to be met in the middle of battle). It makes sense to have heroes not show up in the final battle, because when you have a big ass army, the hero shouldn't be doing the fighting.
It would be better then the player made the decision than the program. I (e.g.) like to play a weak hero in a battle of great armies.
[quotes]In H4, as I remember it, it also brings a troubling but significant consequence with regard to magic school: uber-Order magic. When the enemy's objective is to only take you down i/o the entire army, the easiest but most logical counter is to make them fighting each other. Other magic schools won't help. [/quotes]
Help, help. You just need to know how. E.g. Chaos kill Mage before the spell is cast. Life have "Order ward" (50% chance to ignore). Nature blocks line of sight (e.g. sprite). Death - no comment.
Adn remember to fast units, which may block the spellcaster.
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