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| Thread: Free Will |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Shares
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I am. Thusly I am.
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posted December 07, 2010 12:16 PM |
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Edited by Shares at 13:39, 07 Dec 2010.
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JJ: Let's instead compare with numbers that have real values:
An inch is just a number. It has an exact value of 1 inch. If we instead compare it with metric, it suddenly has a value of (previously approximately) 2.52 centimetres.
So if we then would change our math system so that it would be based on, let's say pi. Then pi would have an exactly defined value. Pi does have an exact value, even if we can never define it. This is due to the fact that pi follows a formula: pi= Circumference divided by diameter
This, however, isn't that useful in any discussion, since we can never define it anyway. Practical reality > truth of theory
EDIT: Pi symbols doesn't work here. Sorry. It does work while writing the post.
π
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JollyJoker
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posted December 07, 2010 12:33 PM |
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Sorry, Shares, but that just isn't right - there is no system that would give Pi an exact value. And you don't seem to understand that the formula for Pi is no formula at all, because you cannot calculate circumference of a circle idependent from Pi.
You can CONSTRUCT one, as you can construct a square with a diagonal, there is no exact value to describe it.
The great Pythagoras would deny it with religious fervor - he build something like religion on the claim that everything can be describbed as a ratio of integers, and this is obviously wrong.
The truth is, as these simple example show, that only by the stuff that is NOT determined, things become the depth they have.
@ Mytical
I thought it was clear that the world is built on INdeterminism and probability instead of determinism and certainty.
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Shares
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I am. Thusly I am.
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posted December 07, 2010 12:39 PM |
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Quote:
Sorry, Shares, but that just isn't right - there is no system that would give Pi an exact value. And you don't seem to understand that the formula for Pi is no formula at all, because you cannot calculate circumference of a circle idependent from Pi.
Yes, That is true. Still, a circle does have an exact circumference, doesn't it?
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JollyJoker
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posted December 07, 2010 01:35 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Sorry, Shares, but that just isn't right - there is no system that would give Pi an exact value. And you don't seem to understand that the formula for Pi is no formula at all, because you cannot calculate circumference of a circle idependent from Pi.
Yes, That is true. Still, a circle does have an exact circumference, doesn't it?
What do you mean with "exact"? The circumference is "exactly" Pi*d. But what IS Pi exactly?
Pi is a limes, and there are a couple of ways to get to that limes, but, the amazing thing is that there is no exact value, since the exact value is the value that you get for n=infinite, and the main thing is: THERE IS NO SUCH INFINITE N. You know that there is no such n.
Consequently Pi, and therefore the circumference of a circle, has no exact value even though you know the diameter. You might say, that the value depends on how deep you look.
You can construct Pi by constructing regular polygons with an increasing number of corners, one AROUND a circle with diameter 1, and one WITHIN that circle. With the bigger polygon the circle touches the polygon, while with the smaller one the corners touch the inside of the sqaure.
If you start with a square - a regular polygon with 4 corners, the circumference of the bigger one is 4, while that of the smaller one is 2*(sqrt2).
AT that point of construction PI is oscillating between those values and completely fills the space. It's possible now to construct those polygons with more corners: 5, 6... 10... 100, a billion. The circumference of the bigger square will become gradually smaller, while that of the smaller one becomes bigger, nearing the magical Pi - which is the limes of that process: the symbol Pi STANDS FOR that process.
Meanwhile we have determined Pi rather precisely. But no matter how many digits right from the decimal point we know, Pi is still oscillating. To make it simple, if we have determnined PI to be 3.14 and then something, but have no idea about the next digit, this means that Pi is Oscillating between 3.14 and 3.15. Both numbers EXCLUDED. Likewise, the circumference oscillates.
Now, your point is, yes, but somewhere Pi HAS a value. We may not know the billionandfirst digit behind the decimal point, but there IS one, and once we bother to determine it, we know it.
And here we are at quantum mechanics - it is UNDECIDED or UNDETERMINED as long as the process of determination isn't actually followed.
And since it's a limes for n=infinite it is IMPOSSIBLE with infinity to determine PI exactly. EVER.
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Shares
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I am. Thusly I am.
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posted December 07, 2010 01:38 PM |
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In PRACTISE a circle will have an exact value. Or did the ancient egyptians have a part missing in their circles, since the used three as pi?
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JollyJoker
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posted December 07, 2010 02:00 PM |
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You can construct a circle without even knowing about Pi. In practise you can construct a circle with a pin and a thread and a stick or something like that, and if you put marks on a thread you can put it around the constructed circle and take the measure of it. Roughly.
But that's not exact.
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Elodin
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posted December 07, 2010 02:07 PM |
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Scientists find gene that predisposes people to cheating, adultury and promiscuity. Another nail in the coffin of free will? What do you think?
Another question: is it fair to label something a sin/immoral if you're predisposed to it because of your genetic makeup? Something to ponder over.
No it is not a nail in the free will coffin. In fact, that confirms exactly what the Bible teaches about man. Man is born with an unregenerate fallen nature. With a tendency to sin. Sin can however be overcome and a man can be born again and have a new spiritual nature that keeps the old "dead" sinful nature in check.
It is quite clear that free will exists. One can chose his own behavior. Each day we determine who we will become by our choices.
Yes, one can be condemned for giving in to a temptation to do something immoral. Each man is tempted in areas of his weaknesses.
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Shares
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I am. Thusly I am.
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posted December 07, 2010 02:07 PM |
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The measurment isn't, but the circle is "exact"(as exact as it gets). Any way, we're, for long, done discussing this. Or do you have anything else to add without repeating?
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JollyJoker
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posted December 07, 2010 02:33 PM |
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Well, I just wonder what the meaning of the sentence is - "the circle is as exact as it gets".
I find no meaning in it. What we discuss here is the DETERMINING of something. Determining means that we extract information - specific and exact information from "something".
And the whole point is to show that there are things you cannot extract specific and exact information from - although the thing itself is in an abstract way clear.
It is, within certain limits, undetermined.
If you look from then circle to the universe which is "there" as well. Still, it is fundamentally impossible to extract all information from it - to determine the micro or quantum state of it. Fundamentally impossible, by the very nature of it. So the basic assumption of determinism is nil and void: it is fundamentally and principally impossible to determine the exact state of the universe at any given time, not for us, but in principal, on a general and fundamental level. Therefore determination is impossible.
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JoonasTo
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posted December 07, 2010 02:39 PM |
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Shares, you are failing so much in this thread.
Since JJ's been lecturing you on pi I'll only touch that lightly.
Think you have a string of 1 meter. Then you make a circle out of that string. Then you start to measure the diameter. First it will look like it's 30cm then 32cm then 31,8cm then 31,83cm then 31,831cm then 31,8310cm then 31,83099cm and so on. Each time when your measurements get more precise the number will change. You can keep getting more and more precise measurements and more and more precise numbers but no matter how precise your measurement is the number will change by a way you can't define when you measure it even more precisely. You can never have the exact value of the diameter.
Same goes to the other way, you have a circle with a diameter of 1 meter. Then you start to measure the circumference. Exact same process. You will keep getting more and more precise numbers which change by a way you can't define.
This indefinite factor is the pi. So you cannot calculate pi by measuring diameter and circumference and dividing them because either the diameter/circumference or both are indefinite. So it does not have a value in practice either. It does have values at certain precisions, say precision of 10^-13, but it does not have an absolute value, precision of 10^-infinity.
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We know that there's at least twelve dimensions, yet don't understand much more than three and we certainly don't think of more than four in our day-to-day activities.
As you said yourself: "For the argument it doesn't matter that this would be impossible" (this being knowing every fact).
Fully understanding the universe is impossible, so it will forever SEEM to be random to us. In reality it isn't, but since we cannot predict it and it acts random to us, we should take that into consideration rather than it not.
There is no proof for dimensions beyond 3. That's right, even the existence of time is debatable and even if it does exist, it's relative to the viewer.
The theories that try to explain the world with numerous dimensions are just that, theories. And they aren't even ready. There are problems with them. Meaning, they don't work.
With maths we can (rather)easily play around with 13 dimensions if we want to even if the human mind cannot comprehend more than 3 and falsely the illusion of four. That however, does not prove they exist. You can imagine giants shooting lasers out of their eyes because that would explain the craters on earth and they're just as real as the extra dimensions.
And why would understanding the universe be impossible?
We've come from thinking everything was made of water, fire, earth and air to quantum mechanics in just 2000 years and the speed has been accelerating all the time. The earth has, what?, 4 billion years left to go? That's a lot more than two millenia.
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Shares
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I am. Thusly I am.
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posted December 07, 2010 02:53 PM |
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I find no meaning in it. What we discuss here is the DETERMINING of something..
I know that. I've stated it. I also know of pi and how it works etc. I know your point and I understand it. I do, how ever not entirerly agree. Have you pervieved mine?
Joonas: Studying movement of electrons suggests that there should be another ten (there are of course different theories.) dimensions (or was that ten total?), and the fact that protons are known to be able to collide with THEMSELVES would also suggest that there are dimensions we do not know of. There's, not surprisingly, no proof.
Understanding the universe as it is now would be impossible for OUR GENERATION. In the, very far off, future anything can happen.
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angelito
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posted December 07, 2010 03:14 PM |
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Free will --> circle...pi...measure?
Interesting....
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JoonasTo
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posted December 07, 2010 03:19 PM |
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Your point with pi being if we take a system where instead of 1 we use the number pi, correct?
It would obviously be useless since you don't even know what pi is in the real world. You couldn't use it for anything.
But let's say you did use such a system. Now pi is pi and zero is zero. That what you getting at?
I think there would be some issues with that if we gave it to a mathematician. Actually I'm pretty sure of that since it's and infinity base system and there's some nasty complications of that. Not my area of expertise though.
The electron movement can also be explained if there's an interaction we aren't aware of yet but yes, more dimensions can explain it too. Just as small fairies moving them around with magic can. Both are just as credible explanations at the moment.
Protons colliding with themselves is actually rather logical if you start thinking the speed they are going when those collisions occur. They aren't solid objects after all. They are a group of particles which are constantly in motion with each other.
That's the simple version. There's a real explanation for that but it's way beyond my current expertise.
Our generation impossible, yes.
Unless we get a revelation or god descends and explains it or something.
@Angelito:
We are executing our free will here. 
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Fauch
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posted December 07, 2010 03:59 PM |
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what is the relation between free will and maths? 
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JollyJoker
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posted December 07, 2010 04:14 PM |
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Free will is the opposite of determination. If determination isn't possible, free will is the only thing left.
For determination to be a valid option you need the assumption that is must be possible - in theory, at least - to completely determine the state of the universe.
That, however, isn't possible, since on quantum level things are behaving like irrational numbers: they are in an undetermied state as long as they are not determined. As opposed to finding a law or rule or something like that, which would allow a systematic quantification.
I used Math as an illustration.
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Fauch
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posted December 07, 2010 04:28 PM |
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yeah, I read that kind of stuffs in several books, but it usually didn't involve complex mathematics demonstrations.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 07, 2010 05:17 PM |
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It's not really complex mathematics, Fauch.
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shares
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I am. Thusly I am.
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posted December 07, 2010 06:46 PM |
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Sorry, supposed to be photons, and a single, lone, photon is known to be able to collide with itself.
As for the electrons, they make jumps. Seeming to phase out of existance and reappear somewhere else. So it it's a matter of basic movement that we fail to understand. Not another force that affects it. I know that there's no real proof, but in a sense gravity isn't proven either. It just fits with everything we know
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markkur
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posted December 08, 2010 12:50 AM |
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I am not sure which 'side' I am on. Free Will or 'Fate'. *shrugs*
I don't understand the 'picking'. Aren't they both engaged at once?
Time is the other part of this triangle. I am making my choices based on the present and that may or may not decide my future or someone esles.
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Mytical
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posted December 08, 2010 07:55 AM |
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Both can not exist at the same time. If you have free will, then there is no such thing as 'fate'. As nothing will ever be set in stone. Imagine two distinct time lines.
One free will, the other fate.
Fate would be a single stream. With no branches, at all. Because the course of the river has already been decided.
Free will however, would actually have many branches. Every decision would create at least a small branch..where some might even create a rather large branch as it could affect MANY people (ie some country's leader launches a nuke..that would create a rather large branch).
The course of the river is not decided..and many alternate realities would exist where somebody has chosen differently. We would not YET be able to interact with any of these alternate 'branches', but theoretically we could in time create a way to do so.
Back to the free will/fate can not exist thing however. If we actually have free will, then fate has no part. When we come to a fork in the road..it MATTERS which we choose. Where if fate is in charge, it doesn't. Whatever was going to happen when we went down one road, would also happen if we went down the other. So free will in that aspect would be an illusion.
Lets take that fork in the road. Assuming fate says that day you die. Then if you go left or right, you die..period. If you stand there looking at the fork you die. If you go back the way you come .. you die.
Free will says that it matters which you choose. The left fork leads to a freeway where you get in an automobile accident and die. The right fork leads to a farmhouse..where you find out where the freeway is .. but by the time you get to the freeway the other vehicle that would have killed you has passed..and you live. Or you turn around, go home, and find your Special other cheating on you
So to put it basically since Free Will says it matters what choice you make, and fate means that it doesn't matter what you choose..both can not exist at the same time. Either it matters..or it doesn't.
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