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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted December 22, 2010 08:49 PM |
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Comparisons
This thread shall be about comparing some systems in the HoMM series with each other and with those of other games. I'd be glad if you'd like to give comments and your favorite system of the described, as well as additions, and own comparisons, if you want 
I'll begin with Magic/Spell Learning system.
In HoMM, we traditionally have a system of learning spells through the mage guilds, by visiting them. Other games have other systems of how to learn spells. Here, I'll sum up the systems, their advantages and their disadvantages and after that compare them.
Spell Learning System I: Spell Research
Spell Research appears in some fantasy strategy games, examples are Lords of Magic and Age of Wonders. They have in common that:
-they need time. How much, depends highly on how much you spend into the research. In AoW, for example, you spend part of your mana crystals, which whom you also cast spells, into research, while in LoM, you set a magic Hero as researcher into the Mage tower to research the spell.
-stronger spells need more time/ressources
-usually, spells are available globally after they have been researched
-spells cannot be "de-searched", or taken away from you, usually.
Spell Learning System II: Skill Trees and Level-Up Learning
A quite different system appears in many games, for example all Warcraft games or Diablo 2. Spells are or can be learned when the hero/character achieves a level. OOften, but not allways, spells are not automatically achieved but costs points, slots, or something like that. A sub-type of such a learning is the common Skill-Tree learning, where one skill, and, also spell, builds up on the former one, for example you learn Fire Ball, then you can put your SP into Fire Wall to later learn Inferno. or so. Characteristics of Level-Up Learning are:
-spells obtained through gaining new levels/gaining EXP
-usually, each hero/character learns their own spells
-usually, the number of spells that can be learned is limited (by max level, skill-point amount, etc.)
-often, spells have prerequesites
-it can be possibly to unlearn spells, but it's by far not obligatory
Spell Learning System III: Spell Teachers
The HoMM system belongs to this point. In such a system, Spells are obtained from a certain Teacher, sometimes with prerequesites (like a certain skill or a certain Level). In HoMM, the main teacher is the main guild, but as you all know, there are a lot of othe roptions following the same system (Mentoring, Shrines, etc.). Characteristics of Spell Teachers are:
-A certain object, place or person must be visited to learn spells.
-With prerequesites met, the spell learning costs no time nor ressources nor Skill points
-usually, the number of learnable spells is infinite
-usually, each hero/character learns their own spells
-it usually isn't possible (or well: it's usually not necessary cause you have infinite spells available^^) to unlearn spells
Spell Learning System IV: Buying Spells
Also a rather common method, this describes that spells are bought for money, crystals, or something like that, usually from a certain location. Such is possible in Age of Wonders, and in many Final Fantasy games.
-Spells are bought, usually at certain points, for soem kidn of game ressource (often money).
-Stronger spells are more expensive.
-No time is needed for buying spells. A bought spell can used at the next possible occasion.
-Wether the spell number is infinite and wether All your heroes or jsut one gets the bought spell/s is highly dependend on the context. In this system, both is equally and easily possible.
-Unlearning spells is usually not existent in such a system - you spent your money to get the spell.
Comparison:
Looking at the systems, I think, they all have their taste. It depends on the surroundings. An important point, for example, is, if the spells shall be learned hero by hero or for the whole scenario. Also, the time&cost factors are very important. Shall the spells cost money? Shall you need time to get spell per spell? or not?
Also, we can see that the spells ystem WILL have quite an impact on the behavior, especially in round-based games: With a level-up skill system, you don't need to visit certain locations so often, maybe. So you can be a bit mroe explorative, possibly. If spells cost ressources a magic hero might save some of their money for spells instead of troops. And a research system may lead to a different behavior as well...
I, personally, can say I like the Teacher system for HoMM, it fits quite well and worked quite well before. A research system I count out completely, it doesn't fit to HoMM, imo. I don't like a Level-Up spell learning, as well, taht is, not for heroes. For buying spells, I'm fine with it, as long as it is in relations.
So, that so far. Which system would you prefer for Heroes of Might and Magic? Do you know or see more possibly systems of getting spells? Any other comments? Any other comparisons?
...I will come with other comparisons in future, too, btw. (f.e. the different tier systems)
...hope this is 50% understandabl^^
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted December 22, 2010 09:01 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 21:24, 22 Dec 2010.
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Short answer...
A combination of them all.
well let me explain by first comparing with another game.
There is this wonderful game known as Bioshock, It's just brilliant. In it you have these spell-like powers known as Plasmids and you also have passive abilities called Tonics. What I want to compare is the way you learn these abilities or rather how you come to acquire them.
In Bioshock you can find these things in many ways. You can buy, find, gain and invent them, and that is one of the reasons why it's so enjoyable to play. You never really know where and how you can find the abilities.
But what does this have to do with Heroes? Well it's quite simple, if I have a hero and I know exactly what I want him to specialize in. It would be a lot more interesting to build him as a character if a need to rely on all aspects of the Heroes gameplay in order for him to develop. To have some examples, the hero encounter specific buildings guarded by a gang of monsters where the buildings contains a unique or hard to learn spell or skill. The hero visits a shop which also happen to be the only place for certain skills/spells. He can also learn things when leveling up or when upgrading his town.
Simply what I want is that there should be a number of different ways for the hero to develop and learn skills and spells. But please note that this would be really hard to implement since you at the same time don't really want to rely on "map objects" for your hero to specialize in what you want. SO some hard compromise or balance would need to be in place.
But this was a wish-list kinda thing right? 
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted December 22, 2010 09:08 PM |
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Quote:
A combination of them all.
I cannot see hwo a combination of ALL of them shall work O.o
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted December 22, 2010 09:32 PM |
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good thing I added a little for you then Jiriki9
But I guess I was exaggerating a bit when saying that ALL should be combined. Everyone of them can be made to work together make no mistake, but the one I don't want in is "Spell Research". But in away it's already there since you need to spend so much time with your hero to even be able to upgrade your mages guild, which allows you to learn spells.
But aside from possibly that one, I WANT THEM ALL.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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whiterider
Known Hero
death walks with me
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posted December 22, 2010 09:59 PM |
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I would like to see Spell Learning Research I (how you have put in words). In that way you will learn the skill that allows you to learn certain spell.
I wish to see stronger economic system implemented - my feeling for the moment is that the resources will be used for bunch of buildings (10 or 12 in total per city) and then you only need to focus on battles and hero level up. What has been revealed at this moment is that all spells will be skills - i.e. Haste, Bless, Weakness are spells with different levels maybe (Basic - Expert - Mass I guess, or Basic - Advanced - Expert and another skill for Basic Mass, Advanced Mass and Expert Mass). But it will be much more interesting if the devs mix all this - the skill for casting spells from certain school is learned by the hero and the referring spells could be learned in the town via Spell Research - you will decide which spell to learn - in that case the main idea of removing the random spell choice is fulfilled but you will use the economic element and will create a stronger bound between heroes and their towns.
I know it is a pure speculation to think about this at the moment, because we lack sufficient information but still, these are my 2 cents.
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Aatos
Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
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posted December 22, 2010 10:32 PM |
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Here is a system which I think would be good. There are no hero levels. Heroes gain experience and spend it on learning skills, abilities and spells. Heroes would have to choose whether to spend their experience on learning a skill, an ability or a spell. Less powerful ones cost less and are required for the more powerful ones which cost more. Spells become more powerful the more they are cast. There could even be two kinds of experience. Might experience and Magic experience.
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To fail to plan is to plan to
fail.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted December 22, 2010 10:58 PM |
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I think there are some nice ideas popping up here...and I also got the feeling I don't really get you...am a bit tired now, anyway, so I'll answer detailedly tomorrow 
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 23, 2010 01:17 AM |
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Well H3:WotG introduced the options to get types II and IV on top of the already existing type III.
But Jabanoss is right, there's no reason you can't stick all 4 types in (or no reason you couldn't have in H5), have type III and Type IV from map locations, Get type II by an Enlightenment perk, and have yiu town Mage Guilds start off with nothing and work via Type I (although they'd pass the spells onto the her in a type III arrangement).
Also, a while back I suggested a personal flourish, instead of you mana pool being Knowledge * 10, you mana pool is now a base value + a per-level value, with Knowledge limiting the number of different spells (ie, Slow, Curse, Haste, Endurance, Magic Arrow, etc.) you can actually use in combat, so if you have 2 knowledge you can only use 2 different spells in any combat, but if you have 5 knowledge you can use 5 different spells, etc.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 23, 2010 09:38 AM |
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I like your idea Matt. Didn't thought of Mage Guilds doing research, and it's so obcious! 
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted January 10, 2011 11:42 AM |
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Edited by Jiriki9 at 10:26, 03 Mar 2011.
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So, now for the next comparison. Any game with seperate, turn-based battles has to answer the question: How shall the turns be handled. I will explain the options I have allready seen:
BTS I - Player Turns:
This option is quite simple. Each player has his/her own turn (Ai's, too, of course  ) in which they can take all actions they want. Games in which this appeared are, for example, Age of Wonders and Battle of Wesnoth.
-Each player has a turn, in which he/she can act, in any wished order, with any of their units and, if possible, take any other actions.
-Initiative/Speed or a similar system is obviously unneeded, since it can be decided when
-Which player has the first turn is usually decided by who's attacker and who defender.
-VARIANT: a possible variant could be that who begins is decided by who has the highest average Initiative stat, so an army with units with high ini would begin.
-VARIANT: another variant could be that each player has their turn, but still has to act with their units in a certain order, maybe also determined by initiative.
BTS II - Battlefield Turns:
This is the option most of us will know as the one used, for example, in HoMM3. There are turns for the whole battlefield, the creatures act one after another, the point of action determined mainly by a stat (Initiative), though it can be altered, too (for example by waiting).
-There are turns for the whole battlefield, every unit can take their action one after another.
-The point when a unit may act is determined by a stat (initiative).
BTS III - Unit Turns
Many will know this system, too, since it is the one of HoMM5. Every unit has their own turn, from one action to the next. Now, how is determined when the units act? they all have an initiative stat. The initiative of everyone is compared and so, in a possibly complex system, it's determined who acts when (Sorry, I don't knwo the detailed mechanics of H5, also it could be differed anyway).
-Instead of fixed overall-turns, each unit has their own turns.
-Some units can act much more often than other units, since their turns come quicker (due to a high ini). This is the main characteristic of this system!
-During the battle, the time of the next turn of a unit can be altered through abilities, spells, etc.
BTS IV - Simultaneous Turns
I have to say: I haven't seen that in any turn based battle so far, or at least I don't remember I'd have. The reason is probably, that this system is certainly the most complex & complicated. But let me explain. In a simultaneous, turn based battle, there are no seperate turns for anyone, actions are taken rather "at the same time". Of course, you still need to keep it turn-based and prevent that the one with higher reflexes (which will usually be the AI, unless highly nerved ) acts first. The way to do this is to seperate the turn in an "Order"-turn and an "action"-turn. In the Order-Turn, everyone gives all desired orders to their units and then clicks an "Action" button. When all players did this, the Order-Turn is over, and the Action-Turn begins. Now, all units, at the same time, take their action/s. There is a little flexibility needed. For example, if a unit wanted to attack an enemy in melee, but this enemy now moved away, the unit can only change their path if they are not allready to close, and such. The overall battle system would have to be quite complex- Nevertheless it would be possible, I think.
-One Turn is seperated in "Order"- and "Action"-Phase
-In "Order"-Phase, the players (pre-)define which action each of their units shall take.
-In "Action"-Phase, all actions are taken out simultaneously by all units.
-Advantage: this is much more realistic, also it needs some tactical ability.
-Disadvantage: This is highly complex and maybe would maybe need more cpu-power...
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New Comparison:
I don't give up on this, I perosnally find it usefull (if even only to sort my thoughts) and maybe, someone else will.
So, next comparison is easy thing - the general tier system.
Tier System I - Strict Tiers
This is the system we all now since the days of HoMM1. there is a certain number of Tiers, and for each faction, there's one unit for each tier. Neutrals are sorted into these tiers as well, but not necessarily one for each tier.
This leads to a strong hierarchy of tiers and units. Inside a faction, the units get gradually stronger (the individual) while growth decreases and price gets higher. So you can say it leads to armies (if hold pure) which have different stacks, from a numerous,m but weak, to one stack with not many individuals, but strong.
Tier System II - Group Tiers
THis is the System MM:H6 introduces. In each tier of a faction, there's a group of units. This way, the units are distributed inside a faction - allways in the same way, like in H6 it shall be 3:3:1. Here, we have more creatures who are closer to one another and less hierarchy. We, though, still have a kind of "strength-steps" wth reaching the next tier, we can access more powerfull units.
Variant: Loose Group Tiers. This would mean each faction can have a different distribution of units into tiers, so one faction would have 4:2:1, another one, 2:3:2, etc.
Tier System III - No Tiers
and that would be the last one - having no tiers, but jsut ahving creatures with their stats and abilities and not ordering them further. However, the advantage of tiers falls away here: they make things much easier to balance.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted March 04, 2011 09:14 AM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 09:15, 04 Mar 2011.
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I always favor a mix of things.
So in this case I naturally want them to combine Tier System I - Strict Tiers + Tier System II - Group Tiers.
The reason for this is of course that you can add more unique touches to the various faction. For example take Castle from Heroes 3, I always imagined that it would be perfect if the Pikemen, Archer and Swordmen was in equal strength. So that they all was "level 2" creatures. But at the same time I want the Academy for example to have very clear and strict roles, The gremlin should definitely be weaker then the gargoyle and the gargoyle should be weaker then the Golem. So in short there should be this nice hierarchy that defines the different strengths in the faction.
Again in my opinion I think this adds to make Heroes more varied and rich.
However if you tell me that I HAVE to choose one I'll go for the Tier System I - Strict Tiers that was present in Heroes 3.
I of course have no idea how the system in H6 will work in practice, but to me it doesn't feel like Core, Elite and Champion. Instead it feels like level 2, level 5 and level 7 to be honest...
I can give you examples for why I find this system a bit boring.
In the previous heroes we had cool level 7 units such as Dragons, Titans and Devils. Now all the sudden these units are too powerful to be Champions, because the normal level 6 units have become champions in their place...
(But this last line is just a bit of ranting, and could possibly be ignored as the titan and the dragon wouldn't be champions in either case since their factions aren't present in Heroes 6 anyway. And the Devil was replaced for other reasons...)
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted March 04, 2011 12:51 PM |
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Taht mix you suggested would be a variant of nr. 2, in my eyes, with some group just containing 1 creature.
I agree to you that it's not sure how good the CEC system will be done in H6...but I'm very sceptical about that game anyway^^
For the Creatures going away from champion-being...I see that, too.
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ICTC announced
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Dungeonian
Adventuring Hero
Supreme matriarch
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posted March 04, 2011 01:21 PM |
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Quote:
I always favor a mix of things.
However if you tell me that I HAVE to choose one I'll go for the Tier System I - Strict Tiers that was present in Heroes 3.
I of course have no idea how the system in H6 will work in practice, but to me it doesn't feel like Core, Elite and Champion. Instead it feels like level 2, level 5 and level 7 to be honest...
I can give you examples for why I find this system a bit boring.
In the previous heroes we had cool level 7 units such as Dragons, Titans and Devils. Now all the sudden these units are too powerful to be Champions, because the normal level 6 units have become champions in their place...
(But this last line is just a bit of ranting, and could possibly be ignored as the titan and the dragon wouldn't be champions in either case since their factions aren't present in Heroes 6 anyway. And the Devil was replaced for other reasons...)
The combat video shows that Core is near level 3 and elite near level 6 , at least hit points and damage parameters .
We didn't see any Champion unit in action , so can only guess will they be like level 7 or a bit stronger .
Personaly I like new System , there no more helpless peasants or goblins killed in hundreds from almost any strike .
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The Darkness is the right hand of the Light , the Light is the left hand of the Darkness .
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted March 04, 2011 01:46 PM |
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Quote:
Personaly I like new System , there no more helpless peasants or goblins killed in hundreds from almost any strike .
Yeah but that's not directly a problem of the tier system imo, but on how it was done.tier soculd be closer to another without grouping them. Also, honestly, a strike of a dragon WILL probably kill hundreds of peasants. One must consider these are ATTACKS not jsut on strike by each creature...
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ICTC announced
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