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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 07, 2011 11:17 PM |
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 Wow, loop tiling and cache-blocking, I remember those, never could get my head round them! I'm all the more excited to know more, but no hurry if you've got other things to do  .
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proxeeus
Hired Hero
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posted February 08, 2011 09:01 AM |
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Quote:
The tests on Windows XP SP3 machines here with the build released, produced one crash in 100 hours of playing time. But they have all plenty of memory (4+ GB). How much memory has your PC?
[edit: another thought, what are your virtual memory settings?]
Thanks a lot for your patience and feedback.
My main PC has 6GB of memory, I don't remember my virtual memory settings though, I'm at work atm so I'll check that tonight.
I have another machine which is a dedicated XP computer, so I'll do some extensive tests tonight and see how things go  Sorry if it's not the kind of feedback you hoped for, though 
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted February 08, 2011 02:16 PM |
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@Proxeeus
Just saying thanks for your efforts with testing. It's players like you that get problems with new-ideas worked out.
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LucJPatenaude
Disgraceful
Known Hero
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posted February 08, 2011 04:24 PM |
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AI Mod for MM:H5-Tribes of the East v.3.1.
Had no problems whatsoever downloading it, unpacking it, copy and paste the files in their proper folders of within the game's main directory.
Played the Medium size map of 'Icy Defense' and, won it within 2 months+3 weeks. Titan rank and, 2300+ points only for it, though. Funny, I got around flagging all of the mines of theirs and, defeated fully 4 out of 7 AI players, right down to the last wandering enemy army. What an aggressive AI! Three of them were eliminated already, by the 3rd week of the first month!.
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted February 08, 2011 04:37 PM |
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@Proxeeus
It's much appreciated. Supplying time and test PCs *is* a valuable contribution.
Below you find a link to debugging tools that might assist in locating the cause of the error.
www.bonddisc.com/ref/H5AI_31_Debug.zip (10.8 MB)
The included binary writes a detailed log file to the hard disk. It's quite big and keeps track of what the AI does and shows how the AI organizes its data and computation. Normally this is not suitable for tracking down a crash, but in your case, where there are advance warning indicators it might help us to detect a pattern.
Just as a precaution before getting to work, I'd recommend to do a complete memory check, including all the advanced memory timing checks. I have seen people loosing days of work, and in the end finding out that there was a defect memory chip.
The binaries included in the debugging tools contain a version that works identical to the released build and another one that lifts the fog of war to observe the AI behaviour.
Additionally, the minimap can be cycled between three states that show the default view, the area states that the AI uses to optimize its computation, and last but not least a dynamic color-coded force projection. The color in each area state matches the color of the player who can deploy the strongest force in the area.
Technically this mechanism can be used for aiding map making as well. Whereas the minimap mode shows the current strength of players, this concept can be expanded to show the likely paths and actions of the AI players on a map. This would be an adjustable lookahead computation that for example shows the likely distribution of power in a month, or two months of game time, the locations the AI can reach in this time, the frequently traveled paths and the like.
The idea is to develop a tool that aids you in map making. It should give you a fair assessment what the AI can do on a given map, where contested regions are, what locations will be critical for success and more. It should also allow you to determine how alterations to the map affect the balance of power. For example if you place a gold mine or native dwelling next to a player's castle, or a powerful artefact in a strategic location, teleporters, roads and so on.
This is possible with what we currently have, it would just require the prerequisite lookahead computation for the AI turns and the visualization. A color-coded map can contain a surprising amount of information. I will need to think a bit of how to integrate it with the map editor though.
@LucJPatenaude: at hard difficulty? You are right with the AI being a bit too aggressive at times, that's the reason why you have to make every effort to defend your castle in this map. Sometimes you can get lucky, if the other players battle themselves, but if they choose to do that, you have most likely done your job well.
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proxeeus
Hired Hero
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posted February 08, 2011 04:57 PM |
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Nice, shiny tools  I'll test them tonight and see if I can detect something in the logs. Thanks for supplying us with this! I'll get back to you asap
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proxeeus
Hired Hero
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posted February 08, 2011 10:52 PM |
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Edited by proxeeus at 22:56, 08 Feb 2011.
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Right, so it appears that I actually got something wrong earlier. I said I installed Heroes V on the newest WinXP partition but that wasn't actually the case... The game was still launched from the big data partition shared by my Win7 & WinXP installations (my C: drive is Win7, my D: drive is where I put my games, and my E: drive is WinXP)
So I (truly this time ) installed the game on the WinXP partition at around 7.30 PM tonight and launched the debug-mode AI Mod executable (with Admin priviledges, if that changes anything) and played a bit. Seeing that it was pretty stable, I closed the game and relaunched my savegame with the regular modded executable, again with admin privs...
Then I looked at the time and, oh my, 10.30 PM already!? So yeah, I had a perfectly stable and bug-free session. So I dunno if I'm extremely lucky, or if something else did the trick... at this point I have no idea.
Nevertheless, the game I'm currently playing is a blast and very tight (on normal difficulty, yeah, told you I'm a newbie).
Now that I can get to the meat of the subject, I've got a couple of questions:
- Sometimes at the start of a fight, the enemy moves his troops only 2 squares (even though he could move them further), is that normal?
- What about special objects like Obelisks for the Tears of Asha, prisons, crypts and the like? Does the AI actually "uses" them? Same deal as border guards?
- This one is more of a remark, I was pleasantly surprised when I discovered that the enemy AI actually split his shooters stack into multiple stacks and just gave me hell.
- Same goes for its units formations which I find more cohesive, he correctly protects his ranged troops, uses his caster's units buffs etc.
- Lastly, I was wondering about heavily-scripted maps/scenarios? Would the new AI collide with the scripts and prevent scripted stuff from happening? Or would scripts prevent the AI from functioning? I basically wonder if the AI will be only for random/multiplayer maps or more "general purpose"? Dunno if that makes sense, English isn't my first language hehe.
To conclude: kudos! There's so much potential in this project that my head's spinning I'll continue playing/testing this rabidly. If there are some specific areas that need to be tested, don't hesitate to say so, because for my part I'm into a "play as you go" mindset and not particularly focused on an area
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 09, 2011 12:36 AM |
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Quote:
- Sometimes at the start of a fight, the enemy moves his troops only 2 squares (even though he could move them further), is that normal?
Is this perhaps an attempt to get to you as fast as possible whilst also trying to stay far away from your archers?
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted February 09, 2011 12:37 AM |
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Cheers for your report.
I wonder what we have learned now. That applications installed on partitions managed by Win7 behave differently. It makes sense because Win7 applies these UAC checks to file objects. Admin privs don't inhibit these, they are just handled differently. It might be a subtle issue, the synchronization of file objects (and others) that works differently on Win7. Difficult to track, maybe happens only on systems with multi-core cpu. I had to look into how UAC checks work for a security app and the architecture behind it is way too complex for my taste. 
I wouldn't want to invest time in this, but it still doesn't explain why the regular ToE 3.1 runs fine on your machine and there are also people running Win7 and say the ai mod works fine for them. Though I don't know that Ubisoft ever said that ToE 3.1 is supported for Win7.
Ideally it would be good if we could learn from the people who have ToE and/or the ai mod running successfully on Win7. Anyone?
Ok, now to your game related questions:
If the AI doesn't use its full moves on the combat map, it's most likely it looks two turns ahead and tries to stay out of the range of other creatures for now.
At present the AI doesn't visit treasure hoards, to leave them for the player as a bonus and to make things easier. It's just a switch and could be changed anytime but I am a believer in an asymmetric balance and that humans and AI have completely different strengths.
Same goes for prisons and obelisks.
Border guards are handled, but I have heard about bugs. That's a thing I have to look into.
Technically, there is a whole list of limitations the AI in its current state has. I should probably list this in another post, but I think about explaining the current state of the AI, the design and its limitations in a central web space. Together with a schedule of what work is planned to upgrade H5, the map making process, what people request as an extended modding interface and so on, that we can set up an orderly process how to move forward.
Regarding scripting, this is supported as in ToE 3.1 along with all the console commands. Funny, that you mention that. I checked the campaign with the ai mod to see whether it works. Actually, there were buggy scripts that somehow worked with the official build. I had to implement workarounds in the AI for a couple of instances to compensate for the buggy script. The same is true for blocked regions, they normally work.
However, sometimes I encounter a map in which the creator has obviously tested that it worked with the stock AI, but not made it logically sound. In these cases there is a marked difference in the behaviour of the AI and how a map plays out.
Again, thanks a lot for your feedback. We will see what tasks come up next.
[edit]
@Gnoll_Mage: again you hit the nail straight with the hammer. 
Btw cache-blocking is not so important these days with a single application consuming most of the processing time because the cache hit/miss algorithms are generally good. Loop tiling is good, flood tiling what is actually used, but that might be just a question how you term it.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted February 09, 2011 12:44 AM |
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Quote:
Though I don't know that Ubisoft ever said that ToE 3.1 is supported for Win7.
Works for me (with or without the mod) without a single problem on Win7 x86.
____________
"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted February 09, 2011 12:50 AM |
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Quote:
Works for me (with or without the mod) without a single problem on Win7 x86.
Cheers, Cepheus. What CPU do you have? Do you have changed any settings on the application properties?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted February 09, 2011 01:04 AM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 01:05, 09 Feb 2011.
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Right now it's:
Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q8200 @ 2.33GHz
Memory: 6.00 GB RAM, 585 GB on Disk
Video Card: Intel(R) G45/G43 Express Chipset
I just run the .exe as per usual, no modifications or changes to settings.
____________
"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Crispy_Critter
Hired Hero
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posted February 09, 2011 02:51 AM |
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Quantomas,
I'm very interested in your work. I believe the "chess factor" combined with the stunning 3-D graphics is what makes H5 so addictive.
I have Windows Vista. The maps you provided with the download, and about half of the "stock" maps from the game open fine. But any maps that I've created and quite a few of the stock maps close down the game during the loading process. I have RPE mod by Magnomagus, Oblivion mod by KainC, and most of the NCF creatures installed.
I don't have much computer skill, but I'd like to help. Would it be of any benefit for me to make a list of exactly which maps won't open so you can possibly find a common denominator?
P.S. Haven't really had any time to test the maps that do open in extensive gameplay.
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proxeeus
Hired Hero
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posted February 09, 2011 09:57 AM |
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Quote:
Is this perhaps an attempt to get to you as fast as possible whilst also trying to stay far away from your archers?
Quote:
If the AI doesn't use its full moves on the combat map, it's most likely it looks two turns ahead and tries to stay out of the range of other creatures for now.
Yes, that actually makes perfect sense
Quote:
I wouldn't want to invest time in this, but it still doesn't explain why the regular ToE 3.1 runs fine on your machine and there are also people running Win7 and say the ai mod works fine for them. Though I don't know that Ubisoft ever said that ToE 3.1 is supported for Win7.
Indeed, let's just not focus on this right now since the crash problems seem way too isolated. Even if it means a couple of crashes here and there well, so be it, we'll see that later.
Quote:
At present the AI doesn't visit treasure hoards, to leave them for the player as a bonus and to make things easier. It's just a switch and could be changed anytime but I am a believer in an asymmetric balance and that humans and AI have completely different strengths.
Same goes for prisons and obelisks.
Ok, I figured as much.
(random idea) Since a lot of stuff seems to be controlled via switches atm I was wondering if it'd be in the realm of possibility to "externalize" them into a config file or something (I mean, down the road, not right now ), if the AI framework allows it of course. Maybe it'd allow players to tailor the experience to their tastes?
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wodahsa
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 09, 2011 02:43 PM |
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Hi Quantomas.
I've been testing your fantastic mod since you posted it on Heroes forums (on Satruday or Friday I think). Now it's time to share
I must say that I had the same problems as Proxeeus. On Windows 7 game crashes on about 3-4 week in game-time. I tested it on many (about 10) maps and it's always the same - crash, sometimes earlier sometimes later. It is also true that some maps don't run at all - crash during loading time.
Now the good news. I installed Windows XP on another partition and game has been working without an issue so far (some maps still don't run at all, but I think they were just designed with earlier version of the game or just there is some conflict - it's not a problem for me though). I also tested it on my roommate computer and it also worked on his Windows XP.
And I don't think the installation of the game on this partition or that has anything to do with the crashes. I didn't install the game at all. ToE is stand-alone game and does not require installation if you have game already in some folder. So the game worked on Windows XP without installation on mine and my friend's computer.
Oh, and I have Intel i7 processor if that helps you to determine the crashes.
Overall it is a great work. I play the game pretty often, so if you want me to help with some extensive testing just let me know.
Regards
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wodahsa
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 09, 2011 03:12 PM |
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Oh! And I forgot to add, that the game also crashed on my friend's Windows 7. He has Intel Core 2 Duo processor. So I think is OS based problem not processor based. But, as long as it works on XP I am happy
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted February 09, 2011 11:00 PM |
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@Crispy_Critter: Thanks for your feedback. The animations Nival created are great indeed. It adds a flair to the strategy game that a board game just can't have, except maybe Star Wars 3D chess ...
If you installed the mods you mentioned, did you rename the binary to H5_Game.exe? There is a reason why I am warning against this in the readme. Windows introduced with XP a way to speed up application load times (another of these Microsoft technologies ). What it does is technically that it creates a partial image of the application with the dlls already loaded. If you copy a modified binary over an existing one and the dlls do not match, the result is an unstable running application. Took me a bit of time during development to figure that out.
If that is not the cause of your map load failures, I would like to ask you to do a test with a clean ToE installation and then step by step to add the mods you have mentioned. This way we could figure out what causes problems.
@Wodahsa: Thanks for your report. Good to know that you like it. It's good to see that our small group of dedicated people grows. I expect that the real work will start in a couple of weeks when the first update is due.
But what I would like us to do is mainly work to test advanced gameplay features. Under XP the build runs normally very stable, so there shouldn't be much of a requirement to test its stability if we can nail down what causes the Win7 issue. Typically the type of beta I am planning will have to do more with specific game elements as for example border guards or balancing issues.
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Crispy_Critter
Hired Hero
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posted February 10, 2011 01:18 AM |
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Quantomas,
I pulled out the RPE mod, and every map loads - even my created ones. But about half of them crashed on the first AI turn, including all three of the maps you made. So far, I've been able to play the map named "Duncan" (with all mods installed) through a couple of weeks without a crash. I'll just keep trying to narrow down the cause through process of elimination. I only have a few hours a week to spend on this game, but I'll definitely do what I can.
P.S. Never knew about Star Wars 3D chess. I'm going to have to look that one up.
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proxeeus
Hired Hero
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posted February 10, 2011 09:13 AM |
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Just a small update to say that I had another perfectly stable session yesterday night under WinXP, so everything looks fine.
I can try to play a game tonight on Win7 with your debug build to see if crashes still persist and if they do, what the debug logs say about them?
Or just forget stability for now and focus on gameplay?
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted February 10, 2011 04:44 PM |
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Quote:
I pulled out the RPE mod
I highly recommend that you first check whether the AI mod runs on a clean ToE installation on your PC. Otherwise you can spend a lot of time testing individual mods and in the end figuring out that it is a fundamental issue. I recommend that for software testing in general, always start from a state known to work if possible at all.
If you are concerned about losing your current installation with all the mods and tweaks, just copy your current ToE installation folder to another location before you uninstall. After you have completed your test, you can easily restore your configuration from the copy.
Quote:
P.S. Never knew about Star Wars 3D chess. I'm going to have to look that one up.
Actually no. What I meant to refer to is the scene in Episode IV (the first Star Wars movie released) in which Chewbacca and R2-D2 play a form of chess on the Millenium Falcon and C-3PO advises R2-D2 that it is never a good idea to make a wookie angry. They had some holographic board with the pieces battling each other when they clashed. Must have been a big effort back then to create this animation! 
@Proxeeus: if you can it would be good, if you record two crashes on Win7 with the debug build, and sent me the system.log files (don't forget to rename the one from your first session). Maybe I can detect a pattern. But beyond that please don't spend more time on this. I prefer to solve issues rather through intelligence than brute force. There are other things that I can try out, for example to configure my build system to resemble more closely the one Nival had.
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