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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Mother Earth and Father Sky
Thread: Mother Earth and Father Sky This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
KuzAnn
KuzAnn


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posted March 25, 2011 07:23 AM

Mother Earth and Father Sky

So Mother Earth and Father Sky...  What exactly are they?  Are they known dragon gods with different names?  Previously unknown dragon gods?  Super-powerful spirits?  The actual Earth and Sky of Ashan?

I feel that the game didn't provide enough information to be entirely certain.  Could they be Sylanna and Sylath, called by different names?  Hopefully there will be a bit more on them in the Heroes 6 storyline.

Thoughts?  What do you think Mother Earth and Father Sky are?

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Elvin
Elvin


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posted March 25, 2011 07:29 AM

Orcs don't worship the dragon Gods but instead aspects of Mother Nature. Technically you could say they serve Sylanna and Ylath though they might not agree.
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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


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posted March 25, 2011 07:39 AM

Remember, the orcs weren't part of the 6 elder races created to worship the elemental dragons.

Orcs were created by the Wizards and worship an aspect of Sylath and Sylanna called Father Sky and Mother Earth, but not the elemental dragons themselves.

Don't think there is anything more to elaborate here....

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KuzAnn
KuzAnn


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posted March 25, 2011 08:03 AM

Quote:
Remember, the orcs weren't part of the 6 elder races created to worship the elemental dragons.

Orcs were created by the Wizards and worship an aspect of Sylath and Sylanna called Father Sky and Mother Earth, but not the elemental dragons themselves.

Don't think there is anything more to elaborate here....



Could you point me to where you found the info please?  =]  Is it actually stated that they are one and the same?

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


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posted March 28, 2011 09:35 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Remember, the orcs weren't part of the 6 elder races created to worship the elemental dragons.

Orcs were created by the Wizards and worship an aspect of Sylath and Sylanna called Father Sky and Mother Earth, but not the elemental dragons themselves.

Don't think there is anything more to elaborate here....



Could you point me to where you found the info please?  =]  Is it actually stated that they are one and the same?


Can't remember, have it all on my Heroes Ashan Word Doc....

They are one and the same, if you believe in this sort of thing! Think of it like this, Allah for Muslims and God for Christians....both different but one and the same...lol

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Elvin
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posted March 28, 2011 09:45 PM

I don't think it was officially confirmed.
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KuzAnn
KuzAnn


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posted March 28, 2011 10:19 PM
Edited by KuzAnn at 22:19, 28 Mar 2011.

Just thought it would be interesting if there was more than one way to create a dragon-god.  We know that Sar-Elam became a dragon through enlightenment, but what if you could also create them through belief?  

Perhaps the orcs, having rejected the dragons of their cruel slave masters, needed something else to fill the void of belief and started to worship a pair of elementals that decided it would be worth their while to free a group of orcs.  After more and more orcs began to worship their saviors as deities, the pair rose above the ranks of regular or even greater elementals and became Mother Earth and Father Sky.  Does the belief of mortals lend power to the dragon gods?  If so, could a dragon duo be created through the belief given by an entire new race?  This might also create tensions among the "pantheon" if they tried to prevent the ascension of more dragons by keeping the orcs as downtrodden as possible.  

Something like in Terry Pratchett's Small Gods, where the belief from the people of Discworld gave power to the gods, and lack of belief left them weak.  It's been a while since I read the book, but I think it mentioned that the gods were created through belief as well, as the entity Death was.

*shrug*  Poking into potentially unexplored corners is something I love to do, even if it seems like fruitless speculation.

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Elvin
Elvin


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posted March 28, 2011 10:28 PM

Sar Elam did not actually become a dragon.
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KuzAnn
KuzAnn


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posted March 28, 2011 10:40 PM
Edited by KuzAnn at 23:12, 28 Mar 2011.

Why did they call him the Seventh Dragon?  From what I read, it appeared that Asha gave him the last of the secrets he required to ascend to dragonhood.  The timeline that this site is linked to seems to say as much:

0 YSD.

The Revelation of the Seventh Dragon
Sar-Elam the first wizard reaches the conscience of the Dragon of Order who teaches him on the nature of matter and spirit and shows him the higher path of power. Enlightened by his new understanding, Sar-Elam becomes the Seventh Dragon.

Unless this timeline is wrong and is in need of an update?


Also, the note at the bottom of the Heroes 6 Story page says that Sar-Elam underwent apotheosis. H6 Story Page

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Adrius
Adrius


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posted March 28, 2011 10:46 PM
Edited by Adrius at 22:49, 28 Mar 2011.

*points at Dark Messiah*

The Skull of Shadows is the skull of Sar Elam, and it's in the shape of some kinda dragon-thingy.
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War-overlord
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posted March 28, 2011 10:52 PM

Quote:
Is it actually stated that they are one and the same?


No, it is stated that they are not. Where the Orcs do not deny the existance of the Dragon-Gods, the refuse to worship them as their slavemasters of the Falcon Empire forced them to.

This is what it says on the HoMMVI site for Stronghold:
Quote:
Though the Orcs have no god, their Shamans pay homage to "Mother Earth" and "Father Sky", two powerful spirits they meet when they travel into their "Dream World".


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KuzAnn
KuzAnn


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posted March 28, 2011 11:02 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Is it actually stated that they are one and the same?


No, it is stated that they are not. Where the Orcs do not deny the existance of the Dragon-Gods, the refuse to worship them as their slavemasters of the Falcon Empire forced them to.

This is what it says on the HoMMVI site for Stronghold:
Quote:
Though the Orcs have no god, their Shamans pay homage to "Mother Earth" and "Father Sky", two powerful spirits they meet when they travel into their "Dream World".




Found it, you're right.  I guess I last looked through the site before they added that info.  That, or I just suck at trying to find things more than I thought.  :B

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


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posted March 29, 2011 01:46 PM

Come on guys....

Orcs worship mother earth
Elves worship Sylanna (dragon of earth)

Orcs worship father sky
Wizards worhsip Sylath (dragon of air)

Muslims worship Allah
Chrsitians worship God

It's all the same thing at the end of the day! It's just the orcs don't worship the form of a dragon, as when the dragons were created, it was for the elder races and the orcs weren't "born" yet.

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War-overlord
War-overlord


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posted March 29, 2011 01:56 PM

If that is the case, then the Orcs also worship Asha. Because the Dreamworld is where they commune with their ancestors. And by lesser extent the Undead. And Urgash, because the Dreamwolrd is where the Orcs commune and combat their demon-heritage.

No. Mother Earth And Father Sky are not Ylath And Sylanna. Ubisoft themselves state that the Orcs worship no Gods. And Sylanna and Ylath being Gods, means that they are not the same entities.
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Elvin
Elvin


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posted March 29, 2011 02:06 PM

8. If Sar-Elam was human, why is his skull draconic?
Sar-Elam began life as a human wizard. In fact, he was the first and the most powerful one that ever lived. As he transcended the gap between mortal-human and immortal-dragon in becoming the Seventh Dragon, he also gained the ability to change into a draconic form. When he died in the process of creating the prison world of Sheogh, a fragment of his soul was split and bound to a huge chunk of shadowsteel ore, that was later shaped like a dragon skull to honor his “divine” (draconic) essence.


Link.

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


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posted March 29, 2011 03:34 PM

Quote:
If that is the case, then the Orcs also worship Asha. Because the Dreamworld is where they commune with their ancestors. And by lesser extent the Undead. And Urgash, because the Dreamwolrd is where the Orcs commune and combat their demon-heritage.

No. Mother Earth And Father Sky are not Ylath And Sylanna. Ubisoft themselves state that the Orcs worship no Gods. And Sylanna and Ylath being Gods, means that they are not the same entities.


You are missing my subtle point here. Earth and Air.

EARTH - dragon of earth / mother earth
AIR - dragon of air / father sky


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War-overlord
War-overlord


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posted March 29, 2011 04:22 PM

I am getting your point. However your point is wrong.

Father Sky and Mother Earth exist on a different plain than Sylanna and Ylath. They govern the same spheres perhaps, but they are seperate entities.

It is like saying that the President and the Congress of the USA are the same thing, because they both make laws.
However they are tow distinct and seperate bodies who work together or oppose eachother as they see fit.
The same goes here. Sylanna and Mother Earth both hold dominion over the ground and the plants that sprout from them. However Sylanna does so from the physical plain, where Mother Earth does so from the Dreamworld. Both are able to oppose eachother or work together as they see fit. Same goes for Ylath and Father Sky.
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KuzAnn
KuzAnn


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posted March 29, 2011 07:25 PM
Edited by KuzAnn at 19:25, 29 Mar 2011.

Quote:
8. If Sar-Elam was human, why is his skull draconic?
Sar-Elam began life as a human wizard. In fact, he was the first and the most powerful one that ever lived. As he transcended the gap between mortal-human and immortal-dragon in becoming the Seventh Dragon, he also gained the ability to change into a draconic form. When he died in the process of creating the prison world of Sheogh, a fragment of his soul was split and bound to a huge chunk of shadowsteel ore, that was later shaped like a dragon skull to honor his “divine” (draconic) essence.


Link.



So now they've retconned Sar-Elam being a dragon god?  Because this states that he was.

The Skull of Shadows
By Jeff Spock, Writer, and Erwan Le Breton, World Coordinator


The potency of the Skull of Shadows lies both in its origins and its purpose. Literally speaking it is the skull of a dragon, though not from one of the corporeal dragons that exist on the surface (or in the depths) of Ashan. It is the skull of one of the dragon gods, and of a very particular dragon-god at that.


Link.

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Elvin
Elvin


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posted March 29, 2011 07:30 PM

Probably. Number of Ashan moons was reduced from three to one as well. It is considered Asha's 'cocoon' that she created to heal herself since the war against Urgash in the mythic age.
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KuzAnn
KuzAnn


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posted March 29, 2011 07:53 PM

Quote:
Probably. Number of Ashan moons was reduced from three to one as well. It is considered Asha's 'cocoon' that she created to heal herself since the war against Urgash in the mythic age.


So why was he called the Seventh Dragon, then?  It seems a bit cheeky to put yourself up there with the current dragon gods by calling yourself that, I'd think they would be a bit annoyed by a mortal--even a powerful one--placing himself above his rank.  Calling yourself the Seventh Dragon implies that you're the most recent addition to the Elemental Six.

And--wait...  If Sar-Elam was never a dragon-god, or even a god, why does the Heroes 6 story page state that he underwent apotheosis?  The first definition for apotheosis is "The elevation or exaltation of a person to the rank of a god."

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