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| Thread: The role of luck in success |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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bLiZzArdbOY
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posted April 14, 2011 04:53 PM |
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There are institutions known as banks. Banks give loans. The point of loans is for people to have a good amount of capital to work with in order to create something that will consistently make money. You take out a loan, you start a pizza shop, and you make pizza in order to make money, eventually paying off the loan and earning a stable income. You don't need to be wealthy in order to start a pizza shop or any other personal business.
Of course, banks don't give loans off the hat, nor should they as it would be a grave injustice and gravely irresponsible (2008 housing market crash). They have every right to examine your creditworthiness and how you plan on using their money. This is also why they typically won't loan 10 million for you to start a massive business. You generally have to start small, and then years down the road you can apply for a much larger loan to expand yourself.
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Azagal
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posted April 14, 2011 04:55 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 16:55, 14 Apr 2011.
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I know but no sane bank is going to give an irresponsably large sum of cash to just anyone so he can invest it in a high risk pay off which is what Diablo is suggesting.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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bLiZzArdbOY
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posted April 14, 2011 04:57 PM |
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I was addressing Diablo's request to have a truckload of money dumped at his front door.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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JollyJoker
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posted April 14, 2011 05:02 PM |
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To make up for the fact that banks won't give loans of a couple thousands to every loser who has nothing but wants to open his own little Pizza Shop, more often than not they give loans of a couple dozen millions to everyone who has less than nothing, provided the "less than nothing" is big enough.
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bLiZzArdbOY
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posted April 14, 2011 05:04 PM |
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Are you talking about predatory lending? I'm not sure what you're saying.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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del_diablo
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posted April 14, 2011 05:09 PM |
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Azagal & blizzardboy:
I am suggesting that you could be "born rich", or that you could have luck enough to find some random millionare you convince with "that sounds like a good idea" out of sheer dumb luck.
Nevermind that there are people and ideas out there that WILL revolutionize the world if they where given investment, but they won't because they do not get it.
Still, if I had started with 1 million currency, I would have skipped the step of "hard work to gain capital", and because of that, the entire "work hard and get rich" is a fallacy.
It is a fallacy because you have the same chance to win some of the larger lottery, as in to get somewhere by working hard for it. Which means you have to state "get into the lottery, and get rich!" as a absolute fact.
"Working hard" means you can improve your situation if there is something present to improve it, but it does not that will happen, or that the opportunity will ever be present.
"Working hard" is a good moral, and something good, but it does not "reward" you for doing that.
The ability to enjoy torment oneself is also reallying on sheer dumb luck, because you where born that way.
+1 for sheer dumb luck I say.
But on the other hand: Lets not delve to far into Nilishm, the fact that reality is miserable does not mean we should kill ourselves over it.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted April 14, 2011 05:13 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 17:14, 14 Apr 2011.
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DoomForge
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For the most part a person who is financially well off is so because of hard work
*stops reading*
*facepalms*
.....
Their work is most likely ten times harder then any of smartmouths like Elodin...
**BODYSLAM**
There, maybe that body slam got your attention and you'll stop insulting people.  Sometimes if you'll keep your mouth shut and listen you can learn from those who have "been there done that."
If you follow what I did you will certainly be a lot more well off financially than you are now.
1) work harder/longer hours/additional jobs.
2) Save as much money as you can
3) live beneath your means
That alone will make you have more money.
4)Keep your eyes open and look for opportunities. Educate yourself. What talents do you have? What do like to do that could make money? How could what you know or what you could learn be used to start a business with the money you are saving?
5) Plan your business. This is where many people who start their own business fail.
6) Carry out your plan.
7) Stick to your plan.
8) If you fail, try, try again.
Starting a business has risks and rewards. Unfortunately some people want to take away the rewards.
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Revelation
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Azagal
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posted April 14, 2011 05:16 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 17:16, 14 Apr 2011.
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@Diablo
Your arguments make any further effort on my end seem wasted. Well played?
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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JollyJoker
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posted April 14, 2011 05:43 PM |
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Quote:
Are you talking about predatory lending? I'm not sure what you're saying.
I talk about the fact that if you have enough DEBT, it's a lot easier to make more (debt) than if you have nothing.
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del_diablo
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posted April 14, 2011 05:44 PM |
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Quote:
@Diablo
Your arguments make any further effort on my end seem wasted. Well played?
Seems so 
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Fauch
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posted April 14, 2011 06:15 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 18:16, 14 Apr 2011.
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But you'll have done the best you can.
I guess compared to not giving it your best and just slacking off making an small but easy living while going nowhere in life that's not so attractive anymore?
and why would you want to work hard? if it is just to say "hey all, look at me, I work hard and so you should" there isn't much point
if you like what you are doing, it will not feel like hard work.
I think it's weird idea to torture yourself, because one day, maybe, thanks to your effort, you'll be well off. that may never happen. maybe tommorow a car run over you and kill you, and what will you have won from your hard work?
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Azagal
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posted April 14, 2011 06:23 PM |
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Heh... there is value in doing your best beside the positive effect it's going to have on your bank account be it instantly or eventually. Maybe it's different from person to person but I like the feeling of having done what I could as best as I could simply because I can. I don't like doing things halfa$$ed... leaves me with a unpleasant feeling.
If I do my best it's not to show off to anyone it's so I'm happy with myself and with what I've done. If you don't give it your all you'll always have regrets.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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del_diablo
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posted April 14, 2011 06:58 PM |
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But "doing your best" is not "working really hard".
I guess there is a cultural difference at work here <3
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mvassilev
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posted April 14, 2011 07:07 PM |
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I think this question is largely irrelevant as far as taxation goes. Why does it matter if they're lucky or if they worked hard? Clearly, if they're making a lot of money, someone is paying them, which means what they do is valued highly and/or by many people. Should they be punished for doing a good job of meeting people's preferences?
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del_diablo
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posted April 14, 2011 07:23 PM |
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Quote:
I think this question is largely irrelevant as far as taxation goes. Why does it matter if they're lucky or if they worked hard? Clearly, if they're making a lot of money, someone is paying them, which means what they do is valued highly and/or by many people. Should they be punished for doing a good job of meeting people's preferences?
I think I wrote a counter argument for that already:
As for the "core issue" that has spawned this:
The cost of living well is fixed, which means that all you earn above that threshold is nothing but luxury, but we don't tax everything above that do we?
Even a flat tax would be unfair, because it would mean that those under the cost of living would be paying harsh taxes.
Lets then say we start the "tax" at some point over this fine line of good living, that would still be unfair because the wealthy earn proportionally more money than those just above it. And unless the wealthy actually invested it all, they are hoarding gold and slowing down the economy by hoarding.
That means a proportional tax is the only "sane" method, if setup properly.
This of course implies that the state wanting taxes actually has something reasonable to spend them on.
If they do have something reasonable to spend it on, and they use a sane tax scheme, the people should bless their state for using a sane tax scheme on sane issues.
Or I suppose you support anarachy and no state?
Because that is the option.
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mvassilev
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posted April 14, 2011 07:37 PM |
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slowing down the economy by hoarding
The wealthy aren't hoarding. They're investing, which enables future growth. Learn economics. Saving is good.
Note that I'm not arguing against progressive taxation. Also note that you didn't answer my question at all. "Should they be punished for doing a good job of meeting people's preferences?"
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 14, 2011 07:41 PM |
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Quote:
I think this question is largely irrelevant as far as taxation goes. Why does it matter if they're lucky or if they worked hard? Clearly, if they're making a lot of money, someone is paying them, which means what they do is valued highly and/or by many people. Should they be punished for doing a good job of meeting people's preferences?/quote]
Assuming people get rich by getting paid? Tsk. Noobish of you. 
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del_diablo
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posted April 14, 2011 07:53 PM |
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Quote:
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slowing down the economy by hoarding
The wealthy aren't hoarding. They're investing, which enables future growth. Learn economics. Saving is good.
Saving is bad.
Especially when it is larger than your "reserves".
All saving above that line, is hoarding cash.
The only "good thing" about it is that we today have a working banking system, minus some countries where they have banking crisis due lack of regulation.
I recommend you to either learn economics, or start putting up full arguments.
Besides, if you knew economics, you would be well aware that the "filthy" rich do not really use their money, if you knew psycology you would know the exact reason why.
And I am not saying they are not using their money at all either, but I am saying your claim of them "investing the surplus" is a generalization that does not look like reality.
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Note that I'm not arguing against progressive taxation. Also note that you didn't answer my question at all. "Should they be punished for doing a good job of meeting people's preferences?"
My answer is yes, because your question is silly.
If I answered no, I would have to say all tax is bad regardless of how much we benefit from it.
On the other hand, when is tax being "punishing people", I have seen this silly analogy quite a few times.
Care to elaborate, or is it just another quick example from the teenage anarchism handbook?
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted April 14, 2011 08:24 PM |
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Edited by Raelag84 at 20:25, 14 Apr 2011.
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We've talking alot about the handouts given to poor people. To my suprise no one has mentioned the handouts given to rich people.
The wall street bailout wasn't to help poor people it was to help rich people on wall street. Corprate welfare isn't to help poor people it's to help rich corperstions. Handouts for the wealthy are not always in the form of money ether. The overegulation that conservitives complain about that makes it harder to start a small buissness isn't a gift to poor people it's to make it harder for smaller companies to compete with larger ones.
Infact since the wealthy have so much more abilty to donate to campaighns it is really the rich that has more abilty to ask for things from the government. If anything I think we should have a progresive tax just to make it that much harder for them ask for government intervention in their favor.
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I think this question is largely irrelevant as far as taxation goes. Why does it matter if they're lucky or if they worked hard? Clearly, if they're making a lot of money, someone is paying them, which means what they do is valued highly and/or by many people. Should they be punished for doing a good job of meeting people's preferences?
As someone who has also leanred alot of economics I can tell you that statement comes with quite a few caveats. I would suggest reading the parts of your econ text books that your teachers don't assighn if you would like more info.
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Doomforge
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posted April 14, 2011 08:34 PM |
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There, maybe that body slam got your attention and you'll stop insulting people. Sometimes if you'll keep your mouth shut and listen you can learn from those who have "been there done that."
Smartmouth = insult? Are you kidding me?
Now to address your points & what makes them invalid for everyone but a person in your situation:
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1) work harder/longer hours/additional jobs.
2) Save as much money as you can
3) live beneath your means
I'm already leaving beneath my means. I actually don't spend cash at all.
I'm saving everything I can earn, but guess what: In some countries you just can't save much because average pay is about equal to average life cost (renting a flat, food, light, water, etc.). Mine is one of those.
As to your "work harder" - how exactly? In most jobs you are given a task and meant to do it. Nothing more, nothing less. If I am given a project to do, do you want me to do two? Well guess what. there is no extra one to take.
Additional hours? Do you know I have to sleep, too? How many I can take? Let's say, three? (if your organism allows you to sleep 4 hours per day, I'm jealous. But well, again, it's pure luck you CAN do it. I need 10 hours of sleep, else I feel tired beyond belief.).
and how much will that net me, those three extra hours per day?
it will definitively kill my free time and hobbies, turning me into work-sleep-work-sleep amoeba-like creature, that's true..
But given that the average pay here per hour (available to me) = 3 euro MAX... 10 euro per day,for simplicity sake 200 euro per month, 2400 per year.
Do you know how much cash it's generally required to start a private business in Poland nowadays? Experts say you shouldn't even THINK of it before reaching about ~30 000 euros at least.
This means 12,5 years of saving money from this point, meaning, I MIGHT have the required amount of money to start a SMALL business at the age of 37.
But guess what? This is the minimal amount of cash I need. Meaning, I'm taking a small business of highest risk. The more cash I have, the better is the chance that my business will grow. Starting with the minimal REASONABLE amount of cash = you're barely able to make it.
Then again, what business, exactly? What is the golden way of getting rich with 30 000 euros in pocket? Starting a shop? The rent alone would kill me, and there's absolutely no guarantee that this will work. A restaurant? Getting license is hard, the rent is ridiculous again, and you have to pay for protection, else you will end up with a brick cast at your windows. Again, no guarantee, because with 30 000 you can't afford good advertisement. Obviously no workers, too, so you have to cook yourself, which I have no talent for...
Seriously... I don't have a clue on how to start a business with 30 000 which would take me 13 years of living like an amoeba to get to. If you can enlighten me, please do.
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4)Keep your eyes open and look for opportunities. Educate yourself. What talents do you have? What do like to do that could make money? How could what you know or what you could learn be used to start a business with the money you are saving?
The only thing I can do - of what I'm aware - is writing, and it's barely something to make a business about.
as to your other points:
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5) Plan your business. This is where many people who start their own business fail.
6) Carry out your plan.
7) Stick to your plan.
Again, as you can see - I have no clue what to do with 30 000 euro, even if I had that much. Not everyone has your talent of making a business from savings and making it grow successfully, you see. I don't even have an idea, not mentioning the amount of years I would need to spend to save that (small) amount of cash. again, provided I would NEVER use that cash for anything else, meaning, no own apartment, no car, just living with parents and riding my bike till the age of 37 when I'm actually able to give it a shot.
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8) If you fail, try, try again.
If I fail, I'm BROKE. I can "try" to work another 13 years and try again at the age of 50... which is really a thing to aim for, yeah, totally.
I'm happy for you that you managed to pull it off, but trust me, you were LUCKY to:
a) live in America
b) start your business in America's finest years
c) be healthy enough to work for so many hours per week
d) not have any personal issues to stop you from doing so
e) successfully start your business and go through initial years without bankruptcy
I'm pretty sure you put a lot of effort in it, but I'm also sure you're a very, very lucky man, which you seem to not notice, at all.
Take your time and try to understand your situation and my situation (explained above) and you will see how big of a role LUCK has in our lives. Well, in yours, I'm seemingly out of it from birth.
I think JJ nailed it, totally...
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Hard work will earn you a broken back and an early death more often than a fortune, that's for sure.
This is something I agree with, 100%.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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