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| Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime |  This thread is pages long: 1 10 ... 11 12 13 14 15 ... 20 30 40 50 55 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 20, 2012 04:36 AM |
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As I've said before too, gun ownership and overall crime rates are not related.
Gun ownership is actually very high in Canada as well, the only real difference is that guns require licenses and to be registered. They're treated kind of like cars but you have to renew more often. You don't have a "right" to gun ownership but you're not denied them either. It's exactly like a drivers license in that way and it seems to work. People often do not lock their doors here while somebody is home.
As for the right to self defense, you do have a right to defend yourself or somebody else if you believe that yourself or that person (presuming they are an innocent party) is in danger.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 20, 2012 07:54 AM |
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A firearm is no "defensive weapon". Would you call a crossbow a "defensive weapon"? So how is a gun?
Of course you can use every weapon whatever its nature to defend something.
A license is the minimum requirement. I have no idea how it is handled in Canada - probably not different from Germany -, but you can't just get one. "Hey, I want a firearm. Hand me the license please." First of all there are TWO licenses: 1) The license of OWNERSHIP; this is the thing everyone needs to own a weapon, including guns for sport and hunting, rare weapons, inherited weapons and those you want to buy for other reasons. You need a good reason to get one, you are checked for crimes and drug use, character test, the whole stuff, and legally you can't get a weapon without it; 2) You need a license to carry a weapon, when you leave a home, and in Germany you need a DAMN good reason for that one. You need to prove that you are more endangered than "the next guy" (that is, John Smith), AND you need to prove that carrying the weapon will reduce that danger.
In short, it's not the easiest thing in Germany to get a weapon - but of course it's not impossible either, but you have to take a couple of hurdles which is the right thing.
So in Germany every perp knows, the prpbability of running into someone owning a deadly weapon is pretty low, that's why armed crimes and resulting fatalities a pretty rare occasion - also in case a perp get caught, the difference in sentence between robbery and ARMED robbery is pretty big.
Which makes a lot of sense when you consider that the crime rate as such isn't related to ownership of weapons, severity of penalties and so on, but on the social balance and coherence of any given society when it comes to property crimes and on "general sanity" in the basic elements of society for crimes that have other reasons.
Being armed is just upping the ante. Of course you may personally feel better, and depending on your neigbourhood (the next neighbour may be a couple of furlongs away) it may make sense along with a couple of ugly dogs to have a nice gun, especially when you can handle it.
But John Smith, who hasn't fought in a war, is likely to get himself killed instead of protecting himself, his loved ones or his property. Most cases, when such a John Smith kills or severely wounds a perp, his or their life was never in danger anyway, and wounding or even killing the perp will only make sure that the next one WILL have a nice 9mm that can explode heads.
But, hey, it's your country, and if blowing yourself into little pieces is considered part of the pursuit of happiness in the States, who are we sissy Europeans to tell you different? We can't even fight a proper war anymore.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted June 20, 2012 08:30 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I know I'm not active on this discussion but I do read it and I'm asking for proof here:
Quote:
It takes more time to ready than any other weapon
Because I don't agree at all.
Try Police statistics. I don't have the time to look for sources but at the distance below 7 meters (iirc. Or was it 9 meters) the knife guy wins every time against unprepared Police officer trying to ready his pistol. If you really want to, I might look for source, but you can just take my word that this isn't made up on the spot as I'm not really eager to go through hundreds of pages to find up stuff I read about years ago.
Ah, I was under the assumption that you were talking about guns and pistol as the slowest to ready among them.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted June 20, 2012 09:08 AM |
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'In addition to civil cases, courts also have to deal with criminal cases, and the increase in crime in recent years to recruit them greatly. In 1960 the country recorded a 3 384 200 sets of the crime, but in 1983 there were already 12 070 213 In 1983 there were violent crimes more than a million, and the murder rate in 1960 was compared with the more than doubled. The cause of murder is often seen as easy availability of small arms in certain states - which again is often defended as a constitutional right.' - I my book
Basic American can live in an apartment building where the code number or the door is always locked. What about insurance? I/you can not be a Houdini who says "hey HC'er", because as soon as I/you get death. For example,!
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 20, 2012 05:52 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 17:57, 20 Jun 2012.
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Yes, I would consider a crossbow a defensive weapon. Though in modern times firearms make a better defensive weapon.
Guns don't commit crimes. A person who robs a store with a gun is the criminal. The gun is not a criminal. The gun is an inanimate tool used by the criminal. That same gun if owned by an honest person could be used for hunting for food, recreational shooting, or defending himself or another person. I've never ever seen a gun leap out of a gun cabinet or drawer where it was kept and start shooting people. It just does not happen. 
Owning a gun does not turn a person into a criminal. A gun is not like one of the rings handed out by Dark Lord Sauron which corrupts the bearer. Guns are neither good nor evil. They can be used for good, evil, or neutral purposes.
Criminals are people who chose not to obey the law. Making laws saying they can't rob another person does not mean they will not rob another person. Making laws requiring a firearms license or a concealed carry permit does not mean the criminal will not own a gun, carry a gun, or use a gun in the commission of a crime.
I'm opposed to licenses for guns. In the US gun ownership is a right according to the Constitution. How then can the government "license" a right? The government has no right to license a right.
Guns allow honest people to defend themselves effectively against dishonest people. Punish the dishonest people who prey upon the honest people. Don't prevent the honest person from owning a firearm with which to defend himself and his family.
Jefferson
Clicky
Quote:
The constitutions of most of our States
assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may
exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think
themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive
and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all
judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by
representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right
and duty to be at all times armed;....
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Revelation
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted June 20, 2012 06:44 PM |
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It does not go through. Hm human nature.. Pork? Ok we read, "See To It That no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, According to the tradition of men, According to the Elementary Principles of the world, Rather Than According to Christ." - Col. 2:8 and "I know, O LORD, That a man's way is not in himself, Nor is it in a Man ​​Who Walks Thurs direct his steps." - Jer. 10:23
Welcome to Europea!
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 20, 2012 06:49 PM |
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I don't see the point in quoting something from mrs. Jefferson.
I'm sorry but in Europe, we care as much about your president and your constitution as much as you care about our monarchs and precious wellfare.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 20, 2012 06:57 PM |
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Quote:
I'm opposed to licenses for guns. In the US gun ownership is a right according to the Constitution. How then can the government "license" a right? The government has no right to license a right.
I've heard that silly point now often enough. You may obviously make that point for the guns they had THEN: muskets, flintlock rifles. I don't think, though, Jefferson was imagining submachineguns, automatic pistols, and other modern "guns", when making that law, and I don't suppose that he would have approved.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 27, 2012 08:39 PM |
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted July 27, 2012 09:00 PM |
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Three no trespassing signs, and you decide to knock on the door and see if the owner is interested in buying meat and seafood from your van?
Not sure who was more crazy, the owner, or the salesman.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted July 27, 2012 09:05 PM |
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That guy is toast.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted July 27, 2012 09:07 PM |
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Do you require provocation to shoot 'trespassers', or is the very act of treading on soil that doesn't belong to you enough to get shot?
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted July 27, 2012 09:09 PM |
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted July 27, 2012 11:20 PM |
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Shouldn't the treespasser have respected those 3 no treespasser signs?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 27, 2012 11:31 PM |
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How's the mailman supposed to give him mail if he kills people on sight?
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 28, 2012 12:11 AM |
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Quote:
I’ll kill anybody that steps on my property
Means we will not see Eloding anymore here for a while?
Shall I refer to you as Salamandork?
No, that was not me, I live in the great state of Texas.  Of course I don't believe the man was justified in shooting the salesman assuming things occured the way the article was written. If the salesman had posed some threat, yes. However, the salesman was certainly in the wrong for trespassing.
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Revelation
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted July 28, 2012 01:04 AM |
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Quote:
How's the mailman supposed to give him mail if he kills people on sight?
Americans have mailboxes on the borders of their 'land'.  Which is far more efficient.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 28, 2012 10:05 AM |
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I'm getting the impression that in the US you need a bulletproof vest and a combat helmet if you need to enter someone's property for whatever non-malicious reason. And this is considered normal. Well...
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 28, 2012 10:46 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
How's the mailman supposed to give him mail if he kills people on sight?
Americans have mailboxes on the borders of their 'land'. Which is far more efficient.
sometimes the package is bigger than mailbox.
I think you also need to sign up a paper that you got it. At least in Poland it works that way when it's a package, not a letter.
What then? 
Instead of those stupid signs, pickups and handguns (what, no shotgun? wow), that psycho could simply get a fence around his property and a doorbell next to a gate with a entry phone installed. Works 100% better to repel people, doesn't kill delivery men.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted July 28, 2012 11:44 AM |
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Quote:
How's the mailman supposed to give him mail if he kills people on sight?
By placing the mailbox on the outside of the property, like normal people?
Edit: Normal process for deliving mail in Norway is:
1. Drop stuff into the mailbox
2. If it do not fit, then drop a claim letter for something at the local post office.
Doomforge: The last thing you actually want on your property is a doorbell. If the entire point of "No Treespassing" is to not be bothered, then the point is moot if anybody can still bother you. Secondly, a good and large fence is rather expensive isn't it? I suppose financial problems might keep you from aquirering such a thing in the first place, and you might be required to get a permit to build it too, which can be a hassle and a pain.
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