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| Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime |  This thread is pages long: 1 10 ... 15 16 17 18 19 ... 20 30 40 50 55 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 31, 2012 08:32 PM |
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The problem's not with people possessing firearms - I'm not against that - but with people thinking that possessing firearms actually resolves the crimes problem. What kind of logic can lead you to the conclusion that a robber will enter your house or attack you on the street just for the sake of robbery? If you want to treat your house as a sovereign nation where you are king and god and every trespassing is considered casus belli, that's fine (and obviously your government is daft enough to allow it) but standing behind the straw man of "law abiding citizen who is just protecting him/herself" is pretty impudent hypocrisy.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 31, 2012 10:04 PM |
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@Seraphim
I think Zenofex summed it up perfectly:
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The problem's not with people possessing firearms - I'm not against that - but with people thinking that possessing firearms actually resolves the crimes problem
I'm not against firearms. I'm indifferent towards the legal state of firearms. I'm however against the idea that firearms actually repel crimes. They don't. Things that repel crimes are loud alarms and big animals. Not the guns they can't see (as they are usually locked somewhere).
I'm also against the idea that guns are good against muggers. They are not, unless the muggers are retards that attack head-on, alone and unarmed. In which case, a pepper spray is still better since it does not require you to be accurate with your aim. And it doesn't kill people. Which is a GOOD thing, actually.
And finally, I'm against the idea that guns will help against robberies. As I said a thousand times, most of them happen when you're away, or sleeping. Guns are absolutely worthless in both cases. I blame Hollywood for installing this "I wake up, hear a robber in my house, grab my shotgun and kill him while he's alone, unarmed and oblivious to a fact that I'm home and I can kill him cause everybody and his mom owns a shotgun in the neighborhood" idiotic idea in people's heads.
I'm also against the kind of paranoia that makes people stack shotguns as if homes were under assault of organized groups every week.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 31, 2012 11:31 PM |
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It is amazing how certain people continue to say that guns are utterly worthless for self-defense despite all the statistics that prove them wrong. Oh well, anyone who does not want to protect himself or his family has that option. But they should not seek to deny others the ability to use guns in self-defense.
Pepper spray is better than nothing but it is not as good as a gun for self-defense. Pepper spray has no effect at all on certain psychotic individuals or people stoned on certain drugs. And you can become accustomed to pepper spray that that you can function quite effectively when exposed to it. And when you spray someone you are going to get a dose of the spray as well.
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Revelation
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 31, 2012 11:46 PM |
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Quote:
It is amazing how certain people continue to say that guns are utterly worthless for self-defense despite all the statistics that prove them wrong. Oh well, anyone who does not want to protect himself or his family has that option. But they should not seek to deny others the ability to use guns in self-defense.
Dear Elodin, instead of looking at the "statistics", try something way more simple: assume you're a robber. Try to think, what house would you rob in a country that's full of people with guns under their pillow?
I'd certainly pick an empty house with the owners being 1000km away.
Me 1:0 guns.
Now, if I were to rob someone, I'd certainly go in his sleep. You can say "I would wake up", but... what if you wouldn't? Ooops, you never get another chance. Me 2:0 guns.
Or perhaps a mugging situation? I'd simply approach from behind, stick a knife to your ribs and demand the money. Even in Hollywood movies this is game-over. Me 3:0 guns.
And what if you caught me red-handed in your home, but anticipating that possibility, I have a gun too and I'm a better shooter/my reaction is faster? Whoops, you're dead! Me 4:0 guns.
Statistics are nice, but that's all they are.
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Pepper spray is better than nothing but it is not as good as a gun for self-defense. Pepper spray has no effect at all on certain psychotic individuals or people stoned on certain drugs. And you can become accustomed to pepper spray that that you can function quite effectively when exposed to it. And when you spray someone you are going to get a dose of the spray as well.
Idk who's going to spray yourself, have you ever tried it? I did... the "attackers" spent the next X minutes crying in embryo positions at the pavement. A sight for the eyes, trust me. As for pepper spray resistance, I heard about it a few times, but I have no real way to validate it. It might as well be an urban legend.
Sure it's not as good as gun, but it's a hell lot easier to use. And it doesn't kill people.
And don't go with the "you can use shotgun" please, I doubt you carry it in your pocket  Pepper spray takes next to no room at all. The only thing that's comparable is a pistol, but under stress, you really have to be a good marksman to defend yourself with it. And it's going to kill the attacker. Not everyone is ok with that.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 31, 2012 11:53 PM |
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The real life problem, which seems to bother no one here, is that you may go to jail for next 20 years if you kill a burglar breaking your house, and evidence is found that your answer was disproportioned. Not that I agree or not, but this is the law, check out for your country if outside USA, you may be surprised. We have right now a similar situation in France and it sounds crazy, but true.
LINK
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted August 01, 2012 12:58 AM |
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It was the third time Alain’s shop had been burgled, with the thieves shooting at him on both previous occasions.
They shot at him on both occasions, hahaha. Defo sounds like something out of holywood movie. Not sure why the third time the thief decided to use no ammunition (different guy maybe, news probably spread that the jeweler is an easy target)
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 01, 2012 01:08 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 01:10, 01 Aug 2012.
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Elodin, forget about statistics for a moment and forget about trying to find biased websites that support your existing opinion. The lack of (or existence) of studies isn't really helpful anyway - it's not easy to devise controlled studies about things like gun control in the first place and it's such a strangely divisive issue that I wouldn't trust any study that is published to be unbiased.
Just answer me a simple question - what benefit does an assault weapon like AK47 provide to a civilian that a standard firearm (hand gun, shot gun or hunting rifle) does not afford? Is it better for home defense? Is it better for hunting game? Sex appeal?
Utility during a zombie invasion doesn't count.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted August 01, 2012 01:12 AM |
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Edited by Ghost at 01:16, 01 Aug 2012.
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 1g gold to pay 5 €. Price rose already?, It is the same.
Ok someone wrote a water gun. Think of sleep a gun, it can not also be realized! The same thing weapon..
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 01, 2012 03:17 PM |
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Quote:
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It is amazing how certain people continue to say that guns are utterly worthless for self-defense despite all the statistics that prove them wrong. Oh well, anyone who does not want to protect himself or his family has that option. But they should not seek to deny others the ability to use guns in self-defense.
Dear Elodin, instead of looking at the "statistics", try something way more simple:
I understand why you don't want to look at the statistics. They show you to be wrong in your claim that guns are useless for self defense.
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assume you're a robber. Try to think, what house would you rob in a country that's full of people with guns under their pillow?
I'd certainly pick an empty house with the owners being 1000km away.
Me 1:0 guns.
Which is why there are more home invasions in Europe with the invaders not caring if the people are home or not because odds are great that they the people in the home will be unable to defend themselves.
Your argument favors my position. If a burglar thinks a person is home and armed they will steer clear of the home. As statistics show.
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Now, if I were to rob someone, I'd certainly go in his sleep. You can say "I would wake up", but... what if you wouldn't? Ooops, you never get another chance. Me 2:0 guns.
Sure, a meteor could fall out of the sky and kill me before I got a chance to retrieve the gun, or a UFO could lock on to my gun and beam it up or the invader could be a intelligent human-elephant hybrid and need more than a shotgun to bring down.
If you don't have a gun you can't defend yourself against the burglar. But hey, if you don't want to defend your wife and kids that is your right.
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Or perhaps a mugging situation? I'd simply approach from behind, stick a knife to your ribs and demand the money. Even in Hollywood movies this is game-over. Me 3:0 guns.
Being armed is no guarantee that you will not be a victim. But it gives you a better chance in most situations than if you are unarmed. Forget Hollywood movies of catching bullets between your teeth.
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And what if you caught me red-handed in your home, but anticipating that possibility, I have a gun too and I'm a better shooter/my reaction is faster? Whoops, you're dead! Me 4:0 guns.
Again, unarmed I have zero chance. If I have a gun I have a chance. And I am an excellent shooter. However, as I have pointed out before, a shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot does not require precision shooting.
Again, if you don't want a gun don't get one. Pretty simple.
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Idk who's going to spray yourself, have you ever tried it? I did... the "attackers" spent the next X minutes crying in embryo positions at the pavement. A sight for the eyes, trust me. As for pepper spray resistance, I heard about it a few times, but I have no real way to validate it. It might as well be an urban legend.
Yes, I have used peper spray in my years in law enforcement and I was required to breath gas in my military training as well as my law enforcement training. And it was a stronger version of pepper spray than what civilians get in a can of mace. I was able to function. Yeah, it makes you want to close your eyes, but you can force your eyes open and yeah, it makes mucus flow from your nose.
Wind can blow it right back at you. You are in close proximity to the person you are spraying. And ask any correctional officer (prison guard) about inmates who are immune to the effects of the spray. (Pepper spray is the only weapon ordinarily carried by prison guards inside a Texas prison.)
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Sure it's not as good as gun, but it's a hell lot easier to use. And it doesn't kill people.
It also affords you less protection and leaves you more vulnerable to the criminal. The wind can easily blow enough of the spray back in your face for you to fell suffer the full effects of the spray.
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The only thing that's comparable is a pistol, but under stress, you really have to be a good marksman to defend yourself with it. And it's going to kill the attacker. Not everyone is ok with that.
I'm more ok with killing the attacker than with the attacker killing me or my family. I have a concealed carry permit and am an excellent shot. If a person owns a gun they should practice with it.
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Just answer me a simple question - what benefit does an assault weapon like AK47 provide to a civilian that a standard firearm (hand gun, shot gun or hunting rifle) does not afford? Is it better for home defense? Is it better for hunting game? Sex appeal?
I advocate a shotgun with 00 buckshot for home defense. Some people prefer a gun like an AK47. It is not up to me to tell them what gun they can use to defend themselves or their family. Honest people won't commit crimes, with or without any weapon. Criminals will obtain the weapon they want regardless of any law that is passed.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted August 01, 2012 03:42 PM |
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Quote:
The real life problem, which seems to bother no one here, is that you may go to jail for next 20 years if you kill a burglar breaking your house, and evidence is found that your answer was disproportioned. Not that I agree or not, but this is the law, check out for your country if outside USA, you may be surprised. We have right now a similar situation in France and it sounds crazy, but true.
LINK
So, laws in france protect the right of the criminal to live but seem to have difficulty protecting people from criminals?
So what was a the shopowner supposed to do? Shoot carefuly in his leg or let the robber just do his job?
I never doubted that european laws were asinine.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted August 01, 2012 03:44 PM |
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@Ser, please read your quote again, very carefully 
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 01, 2012 04:28 PM |
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Seraphim, every law has a purpose, avoid rampage. One can find valid arguments for this "asinine" law, as well as counter arguments. I believe the shop owner will not be condemned, but something must be there in constitution which prevents killing the first shop client which raises his cell phone a bit too fast.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 01, 2012 05:13 PM |
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I understand why you don't want to look at the statistics. They show you to be wrong in your claim that guns are useless for self defense.
Corribus already addressed this, so I feel no need to.
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Which is why there are more home invasions in Europe
Are you kidding me? Compare crime rates in US and Europe, then talk.
Honestly, massive gunfights and home assaults are US problem. In Poland, this pretty much never happens. People get mugged, robbed, sure. But situations where you actually need a shotgun? Pu-leeeze.
My father installs alarms for 30 years. Their success rate? 100%. Within 30 years, none of those alarms EVER failed the owner (and yes, they seen some attempts of crime). Who needs a shotgun in a civilized world?
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Your argument favors my position. If a burglar thinks a person is home and armed they will steer clear of the home. As statistics show.
Logic doesn't.
If the burglar SEES the cameras/alarm system/dogs, he doesn't need to think (this takes cares of those incapable of thinking, too ).
You also don't need to be at home for those to work. As opposed to your shotgun.
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Sure, a meteor could fall out of the sky and kill me before I got a chance to retrieve the gun, or a UFO could lock on to my gun and beam it up or the invader could be a intelligent human-elephant hybrid and need more than a shotgun to bring down.
I'm sorry, but you're really insulting your intelligence by referring to such "counter-arguments".
What's the chance of meteor falling?
what's the chance of being ASLEEP at NIGHT?
Compare and don't make such "counters", please...
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If you don't have a gun you can't defend yourself against the burglar. But hey, if you don't want to defend your wife and kids that is your right.
If you have a gun, it will not to jack when your house is plundered at night and you're asleep. Which is the PREFERRED environment for crimes, unless criminals in your country are complete and utter retards that attack armed people head-on, alone.
In which case, I support getting shotgun totally until they get smarter.
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Being armed is no guarantee that you will not be a victim. But it gives you a better chance in most situations than if you are unarmed. Forget Hollywood movies of catching bullets between your teeth.
in common mug situations, the gun is as useful as a toothpick in self defense.
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Again, unarmed I have zero chance. If I have a gun I have a chance. And I am an excellent shooter. However, as I have pointed out before, a shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot does not require precision shooting.
And I have pointed before that if the attacker is a better shooter, you're still dead. Besides, aren't you advocating guns for EVERYBODY? Not everyone's an ex military guy like you.
Unarmed you have a lot of chance - by not going into the "fight". You actually have 100% chance of surviving that way, as opposed to "hunting mode" in which - sadly - you can die.
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Again, if you don't want a gun don't get one. Pretty simple.
Did I ever argue about that?
I argue that guns are pointless for self defense because COMMON mug/rob situations have little use for them. It's not a Hollywood movie. I guess you know how useless your shotgun is when you get surprised without it, no? And a SMART bandit will obviously NOT pick a moment when you're next to your gun.
Ask yourself (again), when would you rob a house? I don't think you'll answer by "when everyone's at home, and awake"....
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Yes, I have used peper spray in my years in law enforcement and I was required to breath gas in my military training as well as my law enforcement training. And it was a stronger version of pepper spray than what civilians get in a can of mace. I was able to function. Yeah, it makes you want to close your eyes, but you can force your eyes open and yeah, it makes mucus flow from your nose.
Wind can blow it right back at you. You are in close proximity to the person you are spraying. And ask any correctional officer (prison guard) about inmates who are immune to the effects of the spray. (Pepper spray is the only weapon ordinarily carried by prison guards inside a Texas prison.)
Well, I don't think criminals train gas resistance, for one.
Two:
You may be right, but I'm pretty sure that statistically you have a bigger chance of you missing/your gun jamming than encountering a guy that's resistant to pepper spray. Besides, pepper spray is not the only option.
And of course wind can blow it back to you - if you're stupid to use the "aerosol" version. There's a gel version of pretty much every popular gas - it's not really "gel", but it's not really a cloud of something that the wind blows back in your face, too.
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I'm more ok with killing the attacker than with the attacker killing me or my family. I have a concealed carry permit and am an excellent shot. If a person owns a gun they should practice with it.
You might be. Don't forget not everybody's a man of steel like you
Finally, as Salamandre pointed out - in some countries (mine included), if you kill the attacker, you have a good chance of going to jail for that. No joke.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted August 01, 2012 05:39 PM |
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Finally, as Salamandre pointed out - in some countries (mine included), if you kill the attacker, you have a good chance of going to jail for that. No joke.
Only if you can't justify the need for lethal force.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted August 01, 2012 05:41 PM |
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Finally, as Salamandre pointed out - in some countries (mine included), if you kill the attacker, you have a good chance of going to jail for that. No joke.
Interesting. Sounds like those countries seem to be more concerned with assailants than victims.
____________
The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted August 01, 2012 05:43 PM |
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In Finland prohibited. Murder cases are very few. There are only a violent crime and homicide. Remember the Bible said do not kill!
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted August 01, 2012 05:59 PM |
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Interesting. Sounds like those countries seem to be more concerned with assailants than victims.
Innocent 'till proven guilty .
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 01, 2012 08:34 PM |
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Interesting. Sounds like those countries seem to be more concerned with assailants than victims.
You are a lawyer, so you know what have to deal when taking a life. Not investigating on such cases is an open door to Far West behavior.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted August 01, 2012 09:19 PM |
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Such deaths are investigated. The police will be contacted, a victim statement will be made, an investigation will be performed, and based on the evidence, the prosecutor may file a complaint if he believes the victim has done anything wrong, and then the judge will determine if it will go forward. There is a process.
I never implied the deaths should not be investigated. I implied it was ridiculous to place the rights of the assailant above those of the victim. The assailant created the scenario which resulted in his or her death. In our case, if he had not broken into and attempted to commit a crime in someone's home, he or she would not have been killed.
Care to elaborate on "far West behavior"?
____________
The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 01, 2012 10:24 PM |
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It's a common expression here (I thought everywhere) which means shot then talk. John Wayne...
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