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| Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime |  This thread is pages long: 1 10 20 ... 23 24 25 26 27 ... 30 40 50 55 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elodin
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posted August 14, 2012 06:42 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 18:46, 14 Aug 2012.
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You asked for
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Richard Ryan has a wonderful technique for knife defense which uses some similar principles to what we do. He calls it the 'Shield'. He emphasizes the same idea; in real life we will not be able to do any of those fancy knife disarms because we will get cut.
Danny Inosanto, Bruce Lee's top disciple, said, "Knife disarm is incidental if not accidental'. Yet most martial arts schools continue to work on fancy knife disarms.
I think Bruce Lee said it best all those years ago, "Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, cultivate what is truly your own.'
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Would you tell me what kind of training policemen in the USA get? None? A butcher closes his business and turns out to be a policeman the next day just by wearing a uniform?
Incredible...I wonder how the US has won any war til today if they are that limited in their actions...
You are spreading false information.
Clicky
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Salamandre
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posted August 14, 2012 06:51 PM |
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completely clueless about real world life and death confrontations.
I am sorry for you, but US is not only real world, or maybe you aren't aware there is something around. In 20 years I spent in France I never heard or read about cops firing and killing someone armed with knife. Yes, they risked their life to bring him in court and get JUSTICE. Maybe they are better trained or?
I realize that the discussion seems to take the direction where criminals are beatified, but is not really. Is about how fast a society can drown if guns are common thing: once everyone is able to have one, the individual justice wins over society. Maybe there was NOT other solution that shot at this man. Maybe. But we see hundred of such weird handled cases only in US, so is not about being anti-US but just put the right question: what the hell is going there?
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Doomforge
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posted August 14, 2012 07:01 PM |
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Well, let's not forget US is huge, only a bit smaller than whole Europe... And full of tensions between different ethnic groups, something that Europe isn't known for (except when Muslims were burning down cars in France  )
Of course one may say Europe in total has over 2x more people than US, but there's a big difference in mentality, too.
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Salamandre
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posted August 14, 2012 07:10 PM |
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We had a big riot (muslims, what a surprise) yesterday in Amiens, 200 youngsters armed with knives and iron bars faced the cops. 18 cops are in hospital today with minor injuries, but no one was killed on both sides. There is a necessary limit in confrontations which prevents the further rampage.
I recall popular riots in US due to police brutality, which lead to disasters. People seem to forget Rodney King.
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Elodin
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posted August 14, 2012 07:14 PM |
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If people in Europe would rather have dead cops than dead scum, that is their right. America has a more sane policy.
Clicky
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In 2010, following the serious injury of an unarmed officer in a knife attack, the chairman of the Police Memorial Trust, Michael Winner stated that he had put up memorials to 44 officers and that he believed, "It is almost certain that at least 38 of those [Police Officers] would be alive had they been armed".[11]
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Doomforge
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posted August 14, 2012 07:20 PM |
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Or if they had more tasers.
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del_diablo
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posted August 14, 2012 07:44 PM |
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Reality to lawenforcement:
I don't even know how old this tech is. It was "invented" because it turns out arm wounds are rather severe. Which goes as far back, as they might even predate civilisation.
It has a cousine:
Which was invented because it turns out that polearms with blades go for slicing apart legs, among other things.
I don't see why it would be unreasonable to lets cops have a modern version of just this arm piece, perhaps on right or left arm, if knife attacks is actually a job threat. No visible metal, under uniform, reasonable joint placement, training to take advantage of that extra manvourerability it gets from its position contra the fist, and no big deal.
Secondly: The baton. There is 2 variants possible: Non guarded and guarded:
Guarded allows blocking of knifes. Unguarded is just a basic model of a club, and shares a designflaw with the medieval mace. The lack of guard can mean a cut hand, and the design flaw is there because after some point it was assumed everyone had some sort of armor at their hands, rendering production of a guard/hilt a extra production cost.
And that was my outbreak of armchair armed fighting 101, thanks for reading.
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Doomforge
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posted August 14, 2012 07:59 PM |
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So you want Police in Full plate mails? That's beyond unrealistic.
Baton vs. Knife? Too risky. As I said before, Baton gives an edge over unarmed guy. He may be bigger, stronger, you're still going to beat his butt. But against knife? too much risk involved.
Instead of strange ideas of getting them medieval armor, I'd get them more non-lethal weaponry like tasers.
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del_diablo
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posted August 14, 2012 08:30 PM |
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The sound of that post seems like you missed the point: Arm guards and edge guards for clubs would enable a police officer to actually assasult a knife wielder 1 on 1.
Of course, this would require some training, and a practice of drawing the batton and holding it correctly... instead of jumping straight at the gun.
Secondly: Tazer is overrated and effective. A more effective police might also lead to sympthom treatment instead of disease treatment. But if there is nothing that can be done about knife assasaults, then why not train and equip officers with 1 additional piece of equipment for the job?
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Doomforge
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posted August 14, 2012 08:51 PM |
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Police already has riot armor for i.e. stadium protection, so no need for 500-years obsolete protection that weights a ton. No officer is going to run around in that stuff all day. Their heads and chest would still be unprotected and the risk wouldn't be any smaller. I believe they train with baton already. Taser is not overrated, the pain alone is unbearable and the kind of voltage used makes you lose control over your muscles and just collapse like a rag. If you have one, why do you need armor when you can simply "tase" the criminal from safe distance? There's no taser immunity. There's of course the risk of killing someone with it (people with heart conditions for instance) but it's a fraction of the risk that using the gun offers.
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del_diablo
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posted August 14, 2012 09:42 PM |
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Police already has riot armor for i.e. stadium protection, so no need for 500-years obsolete protection that weights a ton. No officer is going to run around in that stuff all day. Their heads and chest would still be unprotected and the risk wouldn't be any smaller. I believe they train with baton already.
I agree, there is always riot gear, but its a argumentive problem when you don't aknowledge the point: Greaves can be done in a modern material, modern design, weight under a kilo, and it would enable police officers to assault knife wielders without the risk of getting cut up. And ironically: With bracelets, the risk of getting cut up IS lower. The main problem era is now gone.
As for the baton:
-Trained? Yes
-Trained for actual usage beyond riot gear usage? No. They either default to takedowns using multiple people, tazers, or anything. Just to avoid having to use the baton, most likely because they are not trained to draw it. For US police, I would suspect their trained auto reflex is to draw the gun, unless they have had proper training to avoid just doing that.
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Taser is not overrated, the pain alone is unbearable and the kind of voltage used makes you lose control over your muscles and just collapse like a rag.
Aluminium foil layer beneath shirt. No normal person will do that, but its worth pointing out that it will roughly bypass the tazer.
The second problem with the tazer is the company making it. Or to be precise: The problem with all non lethal weapons. Non lethal means its very unlikely to kill you. Then there is seizures from too high ampere(fairly lethal, and its a problem with the company trying to earn money), rubbel bullets destroying eyes and breakig bones. Even Caltroops are classified as such, so the classification is severly overrated.
For the most, non lethal weapons are usually the most harmful weapons, with quite a few exceptions.
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Doomforge
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posted August 14, 2012 10:04 PM |
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Well, I for once don't really care if they are going to be crippled because of criminal acts. I just don't want the "law representative" to apply his half-***ed judgment on the street, right here, right now. We have invented courts for a reason and we have the technology to let the police bring there people unharmed, so they can be judged objectively, not gunned down by some power-hungry trigger-happy cowboy wannabe because he didn't like their "dubious moves" or something.
On the other hand I don't want to see the law protecting criminals more than it protects honest people. It's the case in Poland, for instance.
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del_diablo
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posted August 14, 2012 10:25 PM |
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Thats a entirely different issue and has nothing to do with most posts so far.
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Seraphim
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posted August 14, 2012 10:44 PM |
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Well, let's not forget US is huge, only a bit smaller than whole Europe... And full of tensions between different ethnic groups, something that Europe isn't known for
Hahaha,you made me laugh there. If there are no ethinc tensions in europe, then why did so many people die in the past in Europe?
Ok,today we see the rise of right wing extremism, religious fascism and natioalism in Europe.
Greeks chanting anti-Albanian chants on their parades, Ethnic tensions in balkans, right wing extremism + nationalism in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, England, Sweeden,Norway...
Breivik, instead of gettinga nice injection, will spend his life with DVD's, Books, and Training. LOL, that is not justice.
The US is at least coherent when it comes to this things, Europe is just a mess.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 14, 2012 10:52 PM |
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Doomforge
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posted August 14, 2012 10:54 PM |
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Hahaha,you made me laugh there. If there are no ethinc tensions in europe, then why did so many people die in the past in Europe?
Are we talking about history, or about modern times?
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Ok,today we see the rise of right wing extremism, religious fascism and natioalism in Europe.Greeks chanting anti-Albanian chants on their parades, Ethnic tensions in balkans, right wing extremism + nationalism in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, England, Sweeden,Norway...
Extremism is few %, very marginal, you'll never see it living in a big city. We don't have "Black districts" where you can get a beating just because you're white. Ethnic tensions between countries are under control because there's a solid border between them, unlike US where most cities are mixed with all kinds of people.
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Breivik, instead of gettinga nice injection, will spend his life with DVD's, Books, and Training. LOL, that is not justice.
The US is at least coherent when it comes to this things, Europe is just a mess.
Of course it isn't. But our culture has evolved in an entirely different way. As I said, even with all the racism and xenophobia rising again in Europe, there's simply not enough "targets" for it.
Now, take the anti-semitic Poland. Yes, Poland are anti-semites in majority. No, there are no tensions because there are no Jewish districts here. As opposed to big US cities... See the difference?
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Ghost
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posted August 14, 2012 11:30 PM |
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@seraphim
Anglo-American!
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Elodin
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posted August 15, 2012 03:13 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 03:15, 15 Aug 2012.
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Well, if we are going to bring back medieval armor, let's go all the way!! We'll have special "paladin" cops walking around in full plate armor, swords, and shields (all boosted by modern technology though.) They'll live by the paladin code to vanquish evil and will roam the streets looking for evil to vanquish. Of course the most scary monsters of all are human monsters. So you know what the paladins will do with those!
Ah, I think I'll start a Skyrim pally.  Thanks for the inspiration, guys.
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Doomforge
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posted August 15, 2012 10:15 AM |
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Well, if we are going to bring back medieval armor, let's go all the way!! We'll have special "paladin" cops walking around in full plate armor, swords, and shields (all boosted by modern technology though.) They'll live by the paladin code to vanquish evil and will roam the streets looking for evil to vanquish. Of course the most scary monsters of all are human monsters. So you know what the paladins will do with those!
We suspected you're Batman undercover for a long time and that post kinda confirmed it
May we call you Bruce? 
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Seraphim
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posted August 15, 2012 10:46 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 11:14, 15 Aug 2012.
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Well, if we are going to bring back medieval armor, let's go all the way!! We'll have special "paladin" cops walking around in full plate armor, swords, and shields (all boosted by modern technology though.) They'll live by the paladin code to vanquish evil and will roam the streets looking for evil to vanquish. Of course the most scary monsters of all are human monsters. So you know what the paladins will do with those!
Some chainmail would be more effective against knife attackers than a gun.
That said, chainmail would save lives unlike guns in such scenarios.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNtu6btaG88
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qvaim8SVT0
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Are we talking about history, or about modern times?
History repeats itself, no?
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We don't have "Black districts" where you can get a beating just because you're white.
You have ghettos all around europe where you get robbed-murdered because of loot.
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Ethnic tensions between countries are under control because there's a solid border between them, unlike US where most cities are mixed with all kinds of people.
3.5 million turks live in Germany. There are a lot of kurds,arabs,albanians,serbs and all sorts of immigrants.
Thats just germany. The same goes for Switzerland,France etc etc.
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Of course it isn't. But our culture has evolved in an entirely different way. As I said, even with all the racism and xenophobia rising again in Europe, there's simply not enough "targets" for it.
See above.
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Now, take the anti-semitic Poland. Yes, Poland are anti-semites in majority. No, there are no tensions because there are no Jewish districts here. As opposed to big US cities... See the difference?
Anti Jewish sentiment is a relic from the past. Thanks to propaganda, it still flourishes today.
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@seraphim
Anglo-American!
Not really. You probably got that because I am voicing critics agaisnt Europe here. I dont like any side,union or country in the planet.
Actually, Europe and the US is as interesting to me as the drug cartel infested Mexico.
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