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| Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime |  This thread is pages long: 1 10 20 ... 26 27 28 29 30 ... 40 50 55 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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disturbed-gnu
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posted August 29, 2012 10:06 AM |
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Because their country is poor, and the punishment for stealing outside your own borders in europe is equal to nothing.. They get kicked out of the country, just to drive back over the borders because we as you know, have open borders.
I hear this talk every time i turn the tv and watch news,..
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Zenofex
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posted August 29, 2012 11:42 AM |
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That's pretty simplistic way to view the things. The Eastern European countries are poor, that's true, but that's where the correct things in your post end. Try to think logically. You live in a place where your monthly salary is barely enough to sustain you, you can't afford many (or any) luxuries, going abroad for whatever reason costs you several months of savings only for the bus/plane/ferry/whatever ticket, not to mention the expenses for accommodation, etc., you're very likely to resort on loans (usually - from friends) to go abroad - will you go through all this only to start stealing on arrival? If if you will, for whatever reason - from where do you have any prior information on the homes that you are going to rob (or you'll stick to street robberies), where do you plan to sell the stolen goods without getting caught, what will you do if you ultimately get caught and the host country decides to send you back to the dark east (after taking away your "profit" and adding whatever other penalty it has according to the local laws)? And ultimately - if you're just a scumbag by heart - why wouldn't you do all this at home?
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Doomforge
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posted August 29, 2012 12:13 PM |
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because a wallet in Denmark yields 500% more profit than a wallet in Po(or)land? 
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del_diablo
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posted August 29, 2012 03:15 PM |
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"Going abroad" can also mean a car with full gas tank, a survival kitchen(portable flame), a few frying pans, perhaps a few onions, and canned food. It does not have to be a vacation.
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gnomes2169
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posted August 29, 2012 05:01 PM |
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Quote:
"Going abroad" can also mean a car with full gas tank, a survival kitchen(portable flame), a few frying pans, perhaps a few onions, and canned food. It does not have to be a vacation.
Most of them would be borrowing a car, getting a loan to fill the gas tank, pooling together money for a portable kitchen, maybe bringing their own pans, onions and canned food, and that's the honest people. Someone who intends to steal will bring less. Why? Because the instant you are caught, you lose everything you bring with you, regardless of whether is belongs to you or the friends you borrowed from. And then you have to go back to said friends with nothing, and how many of them are likely to give you anything now? Or maybe they will have you arrested out of spite for losing all of their most valuable objects and not being able to pay them back.
The point is, no one but a madman or eccentric billionaire will go to another country for the sole purpose of stealing, because there is no way they can afford to do so. To claim that the vast majority of immigrants are thieves is sheer ignorance, not only of the people as a whole, but also of the true effects of near-absolute poverty that these people are trying to escape. What they want is not an easy victim. They want a place where they can settle down and live, an opportunity to create a better life. Because when you can barely afford onions and canned soup without getting loans from your friends, your life pretty much sucks and you will be looking for a change.
There are other flaws in the argument that immigrants immigrate to steal. For one, a poorer country will have a much smaller police force, and probably less likely to respond to petty thefts. They will also most likely be equipped more poorly and trained less (both time and quality of training) than the police in the country that they are moving into. It does not take a genius to figure this out. If you have a thief in your country who's occupation is thievery, then he most likely stole from people living in the country he came from, and now is selling the stolen good to the people of the rich country either on the open market (because honestly, what's going to happen to them? The country they moved to doesn't care if they stole from Poland or Greece) or in the underground at a marked up price. If you are stealing from the country you moved to, then either you are desperate or a true idiot who lacks any common sense.
Another flaw is that your "Vast majority" or "Double the amount of normal immigrants" who steal is actually closer to 9-10%. Yes, in ghettos crime rate runs rampant and it will be higher, but immigrants know this as well. You see, their country has more of them, so they know what goes on in a slum. So unless your country forces immigrants to live in ghettos, the vast majority of them will stay as far away as they can unless they are given no choice. The ghettos drag the crime rate up kicking and screaming, since the people living there are desperate, and desperate people do stupid things. This does not mean that every immigrant is a criminal, just that more immigrants than normal citizens are forced to live in a crime-stricken area where they are often given the choice between becoming a criminal or being executed by a drug lord/ gangster.
There are more points that I could most likely think up, but it's early and I'm tired. So...
In conclusion, the statement that immigrants would even think of moving to a new country so that they can steal (spending considerable time and resources to do so) is just plain wrong. They are moving to a new country to start a new life, and none but the most stupid or desperate would risk losing that by doing something illegal. They come to work, and by doing work they improve the economy. Why should they be hated for that?
Edit: Typos. >.>
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Doomforge
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posted August 29, 2012 05:11 PM |
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You missed the fact that a lot of people don't go there blindfolded. Some actually travel to their relatives (or pals) and don't have to put anything at stake.
I'm far from branding immigrants "criminals" (heck, I'm going to leave my country ASAP, so that would mean branding myself a criminal ), but there's no point in denying that certain percentage of immigrants are criminals. Just like certain % of natives are criminals.
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gnomes2169
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posted August 29, 2012 05:50 PM |
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But it's also pointless and somewhat ignorant to say that all or the vast majority of immigrants are criminals. And most people do not have relative in the country either. If they do, the relatives are most likely immigrants themselves, and are at risk of deportation as well if they aid and abed a criminal. Soooooo... most (known) immigrant criminals (which are an incredibly small percentage of any immigrant population) will be a high risk factor for their relatives, and will often times not be aided even though they are family.
I mean sure, he may be your bro but if taking him in means that you get sent back to hell as well... more often than not you will have him fend for himself.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Salamandre
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posted August 29, 2012 06:02 PM |
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I would say a big percentage (much bigger than locals) of immigrants from specific areas are inclined to criminal behavior. Specially those coming from north africa and other muslim countries. By criminal behavior I mean achieving their goal using force or/and intimidation backed by a complete dis-respect of laws and locals.
I am rather well placed in France for noticing that. It is a very delicate subject though.
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Doomforge
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posted August 29, 2012 08:27 PM |
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Quote:
But it's also pointless and somewhat ignorant to say that all or the vast majority of immigrants are criminals.
It's not somewhat ignorant, it's totally ignorant - also, it belongs to "captain obvious" category
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Ghost
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posted August 29, 2012 09:08 PM |
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Edited by Ghost at 23:45, 29 Aug 2012.
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The percentage of foreign rapists are sitting in prison more than the Finns, statistics showed. When I was an ex-cloud smoker (cannabis), I was talking with foreigners, they said want to go back home with a clean paper, because wild foreign countries.
EDIT: Rape gets 2 years in prison in Finland. Foreigners know Finnish criminal value system, or the rapist gets a hole. But, say, two years is a bit, and the possibility of a successful (the police do not find the author) He's not a rapist just said opinion. He was interested only in drugs and cash.
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blizzardboy
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posted August 29, 2012 10:07 PM |
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As far as illegal immigrants go, I think you guys are overestimating how much consideration they place on their long-term goals. If they're willing to make the move of immigrating illegally, it's fair to say that that their home life sucks balls. They just want out of whatever situation they're in and put into a better one. They're not making long-terms plans because they're caught up in the anxiety of the present, and because it's hard to realistically make long-term plans anyway when you're immediate plan is to immigrant illegally and hopefully have some sort of work set up with a contact inside the new country.
If things end up not working out in their new home either, either because they have trouble finding work or have trouble finding consistent work, then they're presented with another choice. They can find other means to get by (shady stuff), or they can go back home to the very place that they fled from to begin with. With that choice in hand, many immigrants that were never criminals to begin - excluding immigrating under the radar - end up becoming one. There was no grand plan to steal. It just ended up playing out that way once they showed up.
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Doomforge
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posted August 29, 2012 10:10 PM |
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By the way: not the best thread to talk about that. There's already one about it, I believe. 
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OhforfSake
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posted August 29, 2012 10:11 PM |
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The reason this went off-topic had nothing to do with illegal immigrants.
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blizzardboy
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posted August 29, 2012 10:17 PM |
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lmao, I didn't even know this was the gun thread. I just posted in response to what I saw in the last several posts. sry.
Anyway, back on topic, I think gold-plated desert eagles are awesome.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Disturbed-Gnu
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posted August 30, 2012 11:56 AM |
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Zenofex# I wish i could prove you wrong! But when i translate what i can find, it becomes unreadable.. (Damn you google!!) But, they can easily sell theire "loot" in poland and theire homecountry. The reason why the come and steal, is because the punishment for getting caught is riddiculous, and we are a richer country. Germany have the same problem.. (I quess im just pissed because my car sterero was stolen 2 times. And our windows facing away from the streets have marks after a screwdriver.. And my house and car doesn't stand alone on this.
Plus every thirsday we have a program in the tv, where every 2nd episode is about stuffed vans with stolen goods heading back home to whatever they come from..
Doomforge# Haha, well not that much more, but still, we have more yes ;p
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OhforfSake
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Initiate
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posted August 30, 2012 12:29 PM |
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No one contest that there exists people who cross country boarders with malicious intend.
It's when someone says it's the majority of the people who cross country boarders who've malicious intends that it gets contested. The majority, without further clarification, basicly means if you randomly pick someone out who's going to cross the country boarders, in more than 50% of the cases, these people will have malicious intend.
Now if you say that the majority of the people who cross boarders and have, let's say, machine guns which are otherwise illegal in said country, with them have malicious intend. Then I'd think that's much more reasonable.
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gnomes2169
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posted August 30, 2012 02:54 PM |
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@DF: But apparently, we have multiple posters who believe that the obviously false fact is actually true.
@Blizz: Yeah, illegal immigrants were not being discussed. We were talking about people that move into a new country only so they can steal from the people living there, or commit some other crime. Which is still somewhat off-topic, of course, but at least it's about crime.
@Disturbed: 1. Did you read/ were you able to read my post above? Yes I was somewhat wall-ranting against Del, but he was supporting you so I meant for you to read it as well.  2. Same as Forfy, the problem exists when you start claiming that the majority of a type of people are criminals. they are not, though a small, small percentage of them may be hardened criminals or part of a crime syndicate, you will not find a society that ever existed who's people stole more than they worked for their goods. It just doesn't happen.
Quote:
I quess im just pissed because my car sterero was stolen 2 times.
I guess this warrants a little bit of irrationality, but can you actually prove that it was immigrants that stole your radio? I'd actually suspect that it was someone from your country who broke into your car, since it requires a bit of effort to do so and an immigrant will most likely have stolen the valuable car, not just the $50 radio. Crimes like that are generally done by a native citizen, just saying.
Quote:
Plus every thirsday we have a program in the tv, where every 2nd episode is about stuffed vans with stolen goods heading back home to whatever they come from..
This sounds more like a crime syndicate than an immigrant problem.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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del_diablo
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posted August 30, 2012 06:29 PM |
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And lets not forget that Poles going to raid other countries are organized. They got their van, their cousine, steal everything thats not properly bolted, and then either use the private reseller marked to sell the gods, or go back to Poland to sell it.
Are they a extreme minority? Yes. 1/10 000?
Is it a huge problem? YES! Mostly because of their raid pattern. They don't steal 1 and 1 item, they drive down the road, and steal everything thats not properly bolted down, that might be valueable.
They even go inside houses, and if there is some form of security system, they assume it has flaws: For instance: Only alarms for the first floor of the building.
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gnomes2169
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posted August 30, 2012 09:20 PM |
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Quote:
And lets not forget that Poles going to raid other countries are organized.
I'm seeing "Crime Syndicate" or "Organized robbery," not "immigrants" in this statement, though it does bring us full circle as I pose the question of, what is the best method to stop things like this from happening? Is it border control? Arming the local population? Imposing harsher penalties on criminals caught in the act?
What do you think?
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
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posted August 30, 2012 10:38 PM |
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Quote:
What is the best method to stop things like this from happening?
Is it border control? Arming the local population? Imposing harsher penalties on criminals caught in the act?
What do you think?
Border controls do help since the stolen goods would need papers for legitimacy.
Having alarms is also good. Guns are rather pointless,especially in euorpe sine the laws protect criminals or at least make it harder for victims to prove their innocence.
You know what really would help? If people got together and created community vigilantes, with guns if possible.
I dont think that a group of 6 people in a van would want to go into stealing spree in a hostile community.
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