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| Thread: AI Holes or Where THE COMPUTER plays worse than THE HUMAN? | |
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batvanio
Adventuring Hero
Archimage
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posted February 15, 2002 01:45 PM |
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AI Holes or Where THE COMPUTER plays worse than THE HUMAN?
Revising some of the current LOE posts and reading the suggestions in TOH for outwiting opponents, I came up with the idea that finding holes in the HOMM3 computer AI would be useful. There is still time for such
problems to be corrected in HOMM4.
I personally know a few tricks:
1. Making the computer attack you in the Castle: Split your army in two equally strong armies - one as defenders and other in the Hero at the gate. The AI will think that there are two heroes in the castle and if the half of your army is much weaker than his he will attack for sure. I have tested this many times. The AI takes into consideration also the army in the castle that is why you must split equal. This is not working only if you have musch stronger army than his. But at this point you won't need to lure him in the castle right? I think this is a very big AI spoiler coz you can wipe out much stronger armies without any damage and thus easily win against any comp.
2. Runing with your main: when the AI has the choice of attacking two of your heroes he will always choose the one with the least army, and in this way alowing the main to escape. So the AI will run after the sacrifice goat rather
than deciding the game with one blow. Also very spoilish.
I know a few more, but first write yours. p
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...and give my best regards to your family
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attila
Known Hero
Young Warrior
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posted February 15, 2002 08:03 PM |
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Are u kidding i can never beat the comp. I once beat them on 80 tho but it was hard mth 4 i had 4 behmouths thats good isnt it?
Attila
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¤¤¤ Attila ¤¤¤
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StormWarning
Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
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posted February 15, 2002 10:33 PM |
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In a siege, even on 130 the computer doesn't do a good job of evaluating threats. True story: My friend was attacking the comp's last town. His catapult got taken early and the towers and walls were all still up. For some reason (not sure why), he summoned 5 stacks of 52 Air Elementals instead of pummeling the creatures in the castle. It should have cost him the battle, because he was down to the AEs and 3 Titans, and the comp had 30 Ice Elementals in the castle still.
And the towers and Ice Elementals fired at the Air Elementals, who were outside the castle and couldn't get in.
It was still close - the Titans were down to two shots when he won (I don't think he ever bothered getting an Ammo Cart), and they had gotten good luck more than once. If they hadn't, he would have run out of shots and been toast.
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The calm before the storm is about to end.
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted February 15, 2002 11:46 PM |
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lol attila you are soooo stupid, why bother to get sissy benemoths when u can get those one eyed guys that can throw stones at walls! I will kick your butt anytime with my cyclopes army, but u will have to wait until month5, i have a really hard time collecting crystal because first i build marketplace and then i need to sacrifise all those 20 crystals for cash so i can build capitol week2 day1.
But i managed to kill computer on the stronghold/fortress campaign with this tactics so i never buy those benemoths anymore.
/nafetS
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Cat
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
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posted February 16, 2002 11:36 AM |
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The computer always goes for the strangest stacks first (ie pikemen, not angels), doesn't upgrade to serpent flies for some reason but will upgrade to magogs which is a bit silly as you usually kill more of your own tropps that the oppositions with magogs, and generally casts bizzarre spells (ie, you hit them with all air spells, so they cast protection from fire).
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 Diwethaf Gloau Sylw y Gymreag
http://aozos.com/phpBB2/index.php
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Perji
Known Hero
Necromancer
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posted February 17, 2002 04:36 AM |
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That's rubbish. Playing on 80% the AI never builds level 7 creatures. They just seems too expensive for him. And neither Mage Guilds. He doesn't seem to know what magic is. I just finished Monk's Retreat on 80%, and I had 117 Ghost Dragons, 900 and Wraiths, 200 and something Dread Knights, 4000 and Skeletons, etc. Playing on such easy difficulty is a very relaxing job for me. Just try playing multiplayer with someone expert. It doesn't matter if you loose or win, that's the way to learning. I had a very good menthor for H3, and now I can beat him easily. That's how I learned how to play. Getting my ass kicked. Try it and you'll play on 200% in no time. The AI acts different on the different difficulties. A 200% AI will have level 7 troops soomer than you can. But he won't have the money to buy them. That's the trick about AI. He builds like an snow, but he doesn't have money. If you want a quick win, try attacking in the third week of the first month. He's very week then.
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Things go wrong because people build walls instead of bridges
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Tristan
Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
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posted February 17, 2002 06:16 AM |
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Trust me, the AI is not even as good as an average human player. If you want to see try playing a balanced multiplayer map on hard difficulty. The thing is, most mapmakers making single player maps, give the computer opponents advantages so they can provide a challenge.
The only reason I said hard instead of impossible diff. is that on impossible, the AI gets more resources than you do, so on a fairly open map could be able to win before you can overcome this disadvantage.
Also, as far as the AI building like crazy, I am pretty sure this depends on how it is set. Warriors focus on buying troops and troop buildings first, exploreres try to search out the map fast, and builders try to fully upgrade their towns as quickly as they can.
Now if I could only find the time to play some more multiplayer I might actually manage to WIN a game. 
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If you learn so much by losing, why am I so dumb?
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Batvanio
Adventuring Hero
Archimage
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posted February 18, 2002 08:40 AM |
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xxx
Let's assume that the computer plays at his best - no matter if 100% or 200% - the difference is in your start resources. -
Still the computer is no match for the human - but why?
1. Economy : I can see that the Economy AI is not so bad. He builds City Hall week 1. Buys all creatures if he has the resources. Buys high levels with priority. So it is not so bad.
2. Map tactics: But then the map tactics is average - he doesn't stack the creatures - often having two-three mains. This is good at first coz the AI clears the map and the resources much faster. Usually slightly faster than me coz I want to get experience with one hero mainly, and leave only the very small battles to others. But on the next stage my main has better statistics. So the AI has to have a point from where it should stack to one hero. There should be different AI tactics for different map sizes - the Ai is now good only on small sizes regarding this category. Also it should evaluate in some way the number of towns, towns types(to stack from one and the same town type), availability of resources&mines on map. No use to max-built all the towns if the map has little mines.
3. Combat tactics: poor - The comp attacks always, I mean always the weakest unit, or the weakest archer first. It could be a great tactics sometimes, but it is absolutely not universal in all the situations. How many times I have lured with my pikemen the units to go out of the castle walls and then attack them with my waited 6 and 7s. The only thing I am sure that is good is the Dragons Ai, coz they never miss to kill as much as they can and to do double stack damage. Still the combat is essential and must be revised to be more agile.
4. Spell usage - very, very poor. No comment on this. It seems that Ai uses all the spells mostly random - without any logic - or with little.
I didn't know this till I played a human. The Ai here should be totally, totally revised.
Thank you for your posts, this should help NWC to improve the AI in Homm4
Keep posting
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...and give my best regards to your family
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Milena
Responsible
Supreme Hero
in supreme disgrace
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posted February 18, 2002 09:11 PM |
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I disagree
Quote:
Let's assume that the computer plays at his best - no matter if 100% or 200% - the difference is in your start resources.
Well, have you really played that much on impossible to tell? I have. And I can tell you, the AI isn't that stupid then... In terms of overall play, the combat is my weak place and I can't comment. But only on impossible the comp uses MANY scouts.
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 Milena
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Batvanio
Adventuring Hero
Archimage
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posted February 19, 2002 07:47 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Let's assume that the computer plays at his best - no matter if 100% or 200% - the difference is in your start resources.
Well, have you really played that much on impossible to tell? I have. And I can tell you, the AI isn't that stupid then... In terms of overall play, the combat is my weak place and I can't comment. But only on impossible the comp uses MANY scouts.
Ok MIlena I admit it - I always play on 200%. Years ago I played once or twice on 100% but it was not interesting.
So my sight is mostly from a 200% AI. I just presumed that the computer plays the same on 100% as it plays on 200% coz this is what is writtten in the manual. Anyway on 200% the comp is pathetic regarding the combat. With the castle trick I posted in the first post you can beat 200% 7 comps even on random small map!
I've played every map in HOMM3 and most of the single player Internet maps. So I know them by hard. I am always looking for good balanced single player new map though.
The only chalange for me is multiplayer but the game is very different then. And I can't play on the I-net coz I have no connection at home right now. But I play with friends. The problem is that the AI just can't get me interested anymore - no challenge!!!
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...and give my best regards to your family
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dragonsister
Hero of Order
MapHaven administrator
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posted February 20, 2002 08:32 AM |
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Quote:
I've played every map in HOMM3 and most of the single player Internet maps.
That's a fairly strong claim ... well, the first question that comes to *my* mind is 'are you sure you've explored all the major sites out there?'
But I know there are a number of people who spend a lot more time playing the game than I do. So my *second* question is 'have you rated many of the maps you've played?'
Quote:
So I know them by hard. I am always looking for good balanced single player new map though.
So are a lot of other people - and sites like H3trio and Astralwizard would *love* to get more reviews and ratings from people who've played their maps ... (well, OK, AstralWizard isn't taking ratings at the moment, and it'll be a few weeks before MapHaven is ready to accept ratings for AW maps. But you get my point?) So - when you *find* good maps, give feedback! (It also helps to identify the poorer maps so that other people don't waste too much time on them.)
DragonSister
http://heroes.mycomport.com/
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hobgoblin
Known Hero
captain hobgoblin
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posted February 20, 2002 09:30 AM |
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The AI
If I remember well, there are three levels of IA, the two first levels of difficulty have the same IA and so on, I may be wrong.
But there are different kind of compus. I'm not sure they're different AI but I would like to know.
Sometime when you look at your ennemy, you see that he's a builder, or a warrior, or an adventuring...
Because I find it interesting that you have several ennemies with several AI. When I paly against a bad ennemy, who plays worse than a beginner, it's not interesting, but when I paly against a strong enemy who builds, builds and builds and never attack, it's a little borring.
So what I like is having an enemy who attacks in the fist month, even with law armies, an d a strong enemy who will be difficult to beat.
I have only play three or for times in multiplayers, and the problem was that I were always waiting for my ennemy, and my ennemy was always waiting for me. One time, we were obliged to take a rendez-vous in the middle of the map in order that noone could be advantaged, because we would never have attacked.
For the AI of the computer, of course in battle it's poor. When I have one place in my army, I always put one l1 because the computer wastes one attack to kill him.
But on the map, the AI is sometime bery good. I played a map, long time ago, and I had maybe for or five towns with a big town portal. The ennemy had many towns and was stronger than me, but he didn't have town portal.
And one day, he tooke several heroes, each of them in a boat and attacked all my towns at the same time. I couldn't do anything.
Of course I'm not sure I could always win the map, but in G2, he would have attacked once per two weeks, or something like that, and I could have won.
For the spells, I think it's very difficult to make a good AI. In H3, he knows that blind is a good spell, in H2 he never casted it. It's already better!
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Batvanio
Adventuring Hero
Archimage
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posted February 20, 2002 10:30 AM |
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Quote:
That's a fairly strong claim ... well, the first question that comes to *my* mind is 'are you sure you've explored all the major sites out there?'
Mostly all the sites. Downloaded every L&XL map I've found with google.
I hate S&M coz they are fast and I prefer "many battles" instead of - "hurry to beat the opponent" From Astral Wizard I remember that downloaded the maps for ROE and SOD even the S.
But the maps there are not rated good so I had no idea which was good. I usually open in the editor each one of them and then delete the stupid, undetailed, or geometrically created maps.
I know it sounds strange but I can't sleep if I haven't new map to play. It's like a drug or something - to play a few hours before bed.
Quote:
But I know there are a number of people who spend a lot more time playing the game than I do. So my *second* question is 'have you rated many of the maps you've played?'
Never spend any time to rate a map. When finish a map I must go to the site where downloaded it and then rate it, but till then I usually forget which is the site, and also don't bother to give it a try. I know that ratings are important, because they save me time when downloading. It is easy to download the first ten rated XL maps for example.
I think I am just lazy. But then if there was no ratings I maybe never have played - The Lord of War, The Lonely Knight, World of War, Angelic Pride, Titans Pride etc.
I see your point but the system of coming back to rate a map is not working for me.
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...and give my best regards to your family
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dragonsister
Hero of Order
MapHaven administrator
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posted February 21, 2002 07:42 AM |
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Quote:
Never spend any time to rate a map. When finish a map I must go to the site where downloaded it and then rate it, but till then I usually forget which is the site, and also don't bother to give it a try. I know that ratings are important, because they save me time when downloading. It is easy to download the first ten rated XL maps for example.
I think I am just lazy. But then if there was no ratings I maybe never have played - The Lord of War, The Lonely Knight, World of War, Angelic Pride, Titans Pride etc.
I see your point but the system of coming back to rate a map is not working for me.
You're not the only one. I'm looking into ways to make rating maps easier ...
One possibility is bundling a small HTML file with each map - then you could open that HTML file in your browser after playing the map, and click a link taking you straight to MapHaven with the map already identified. Would *that* be more likely to work for you? (Other suggestions welcome.)
(I'm off-topic, aren't I? Well, I'm looking at human behaviour - does that count? :-) )
DragonSister
http://heroes.mycomport.com/
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Batvanio
Adventuring Hero
Archimage
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posted February 21, 2002 02:26 PM |
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Quote:
You're not the only one. I'm looking into ways to make rating maps easier ...
One possibility is bundling a small HTML file with each map - then you could open that HTML file in your browser after playing the map, and click a link taking you straight to MapHaven with the map already identified. Would *that* be more likely to work for you? (Other suggestions welcome.)
(I'm off-topic, aren't I? Well, I'm looking at human behaviour - does that count? :-) )
DragonSister
http://heroes.mycomport.com/
A little bit off-topic right. But if I had to be honest even with an HTML i would not do it. Perhaps if there appeared a small rating question instead or before the winning screen in the game itself, I will do it.
E.G. You win(lose) - Please rate the map from 1 to 10:_ or cancel.
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...and give my best regards to your family
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted December 27, 2004 11:18 AM |
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Revived.
Some usefull comparisons for the new online-players..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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