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| Thread: No chaining anymore? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 16, 2011 10:46 AM |
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Quote:
I kind of agree with the people saying chaining is good when there's a little bit of it, but it gets silly when there's a lot of it. I don't feel like it's unbalanced to get ~1 "free" days worth of movement from chaining, eg. using a hero in the town to bring the troops to the main hero, who is nearby. That just speeds the game up without altering player's strategies much. Moving an army halfway across the map in one day, though is a bit ridiculous and totally changes the strategies of the game.
Limitting hero count I think is the wrong way to handle it though, because that limits everything else you could do with those heroes and is not at targetted change to "fix" chaining (assuming it is to be "fixed"). It also inhibits your ability to use scouting heroes for claiming resources or as a sneak attack, etc. Maybe some of those wouldn't be viable strategies, but I like to imagine people would be able to find more uses for lots of heroes even if they couldn't chain troops.
In terms of "fixing" chaining, I always thought a simplification of the H4 model would be best. If heroes exchanged armies, then the hero with more movement would lose a little bit of movement. At worst, the hero with more remaining movement would have his movement set to the slower one's remaining amount, but the details of the adjustment would be open to tweaking.
Good points. 
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What will happen now?
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lichking012
Known Hero
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posted July 16, 2011 08:26 PM |
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Quote:
EDIT: Hold on, did you say "2 to 3 hours"?
I'm not saying that's how long a game lasts, I'm saying that that is about how long the average, not the average medium sized reasonable balanced map should play. Anything longer makes multiplayer a logistical mess.
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted July 16, 2011 08:29 PM |
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Edited by Aosaw at 20:31, 16 Jul 2011.
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I don't know. Maybe we're slow, but my brother and I sit down to play and our games last for the better part of a week.
Granted, when we play we're not aiming to beat each other, we're aiming for the epic final battle between my giant mammoth of a necromancer army and his much smaller (but much stronger) army of demons. Or vice versa.
But I would say that the average for us is more on the order of 10-20 hours, not 2-3.
On the other hand, when we sit down to play, we almost exclusively choose the XL, 8-player free for all maps. So there's generally a lot more to do.
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lichking012
Known Hero
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posted July 16, 2011 08:39 PM |
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Well of course I'm not talking grand do everything maps. For instance, in Heroes 3, whenever my bro, neighbor and I wanted a "quick game", we would play a random map, probably medium or large, maybe, but probably not with underground. It would last us 3 to 6 hours depending on how dominant someone was. On the flip side when we wanted an epic game, we would chose one of the epic already made maps, the favorites being Islands and Caves and Reclaimation, both of which are huge and have tons and tons to explore/ do, and we would literally spend all night playing thoose. I'm not saying a huge epic heroes game shouldn't take a good 10 to 15 hours, but at the same time, a normal pick me up game shouldn't either. There is a reason the only maps really played online in Heroes 5 are Arena maps or duel mode. they are fast. Not to say heroes games should be THAT fast or anything, but the time frame of a normal game is a huge restrictive factor or online play. The way I see it the new changes make the average game go faster, solve some classic balance issues, and don't sacrifice much.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 17, 2011 01:57 AM |
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Quote:
For instance I hate rushing, even if I could win by a rush, because that doesn't give me from my game what I like: The joy of seeing my town screen fully build (oh no, wait, there's no longer any town screen ...), the excitement of managing my hero build until he is fully maxed out on skills (oh no, new level system is incredibly slow, so no chance of that anymore I guess), and the pleasure of exploring the map completely before taking out the enemy.
@alcibiades
You just described my ideal game too I learned about the "quest for rush" by making maps and having others appalled that I created the sort of monster you would like
After following this game topic, I see even more, that folks really do see this game and what matters very, very differently on many topics. Glad I'm not working @ UbiHole & trying to please the players. It's not possible
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"Do your own research"
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 18, 2011 09:04 PM |
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Quote:
Sure some things are ridiculous and disrespectful against an opponent like mentoring kamikaze secondaries or hit&running with your main
Elvin, I don't remember what were the counters in H5 but in H3:
They created a new skill called resistance and there are several heroes who specialize in it.
They added in speed artifacts to adjust the speed of creatures.
There are even heroes who specialize in speed.
There are the shackles of war.
The terrain affects speed.
There is cursed ground.
There is recanters cloak WHICH YOU CAN ALMOST ALWAYS FIND IN ARTIFACT MERCHANT!!
And everyone knows about the natural resitances of creatures not to mention the resistance artifacts.
Another thing that stops it is 2 minute turns. You can only do it a couple of times before your turn is up.
War is about more than just power. It's about a plan.
In all war this tactic has been used. The Japanese had Kamikaze pilots and what do you think Hiroshima and Nagasaki were?
Is there anyone who could not imagine a real warlock running up and casting and running off as if in a fantasy book?
The game is called heroes of might and MAGIC and everything is counterable.
I have been hit and ran on but a few times and NEVER lost a game on it. I just don't walk up to someones town without better logistics than they have or I feel like I am asking for it.
Noone can hit and run someone who is determined to defend against it.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 18, 2011 10:01 PM |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 18, 2011 10:14 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 22:20, 18 Jul 2011.
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Apparently you have never dealt with an army of 7 stalkers that can turn invisible for 3 turns  If you get rushed week 3 it is over, if he attacks you week 4 and flees he still does some ridiculous damage on your army. H5 was hit or miss, if you got the right elemental reduction it was cool, if opponent got the booster you were toast. But all this is irrelevant, I have survived wars with mentored kamikazes and truth is.. it's annoying. It is not enjoyable. And in H5 there are no clear, reliable counters - it's all a mess. If that is not the case in H6 I might not mind but H5 was not balanced in this regard, it wasn't even properly balanced. Plenty of abuses everywhere.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 18, 2011 10:32 PM |
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But again, it's always a fine balance to walk, isn't it - that between balance and abuse? I mean, who can define clearly where the line is - it's certainly a very subjective question, and some people might enjoy hit'n'runs as part of the challenge.
I have myself opted for working against a lot of what I consider 'exploits' (chaining, the omnipotent peasant, stack splitting, etc.), but must also admit to what others have pointed out, namely that sometimes these features are exactly what makes the game something else than just the random brawl between stacks that I have myself objected to Heroes 6 being.
I mean, beating 300 Blacks Dragons with a stack of Titans, Haste and Force Field (and a ****load of mana ) might be both unrealistic and cheap in some optics, but it does have that certain element of satisfaction that you actually accomplished something due to your strategy which the AI could not do.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 18, 2011 10:43 PM |
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All I am saying is that more rules you ask for, less strategies you will learn to counter/enjoy. Maybe in Heroes 5 things got out of balance and there was no way to deal with, but certainly not in H3.
Titans + force field dealing with black dragons is not doable unless you got tactics, a faster unit and/or you know how to place your stacks so titans get in the field on first turn, if not tactics. So there is not easy way, but a plan from the beginning which pays in some fights and does not in others. Because tactics will have to replace another useful skill, who may know...
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Era II mods and utilities
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 19, 2011 08:09 AM |
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Indeed, you need to bring something to Sacrifice (or I guess you could play it real tricky like Haste - Forcefield - Teleport - Resurrection - Forcefield - Resurrection, etc., which requires you to have enough Titans to survive initial assault).
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted July 19, 2011 08:29 AM |
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No chaining? So what? I'm sure people will discover more strategies/tactics/maneuvers/exploits in H6 that we all can debate and argue over for fun. 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 19, 2011 08:53 AM |
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There is hope for the chainers.
It looks like a solution without limits, but with significantly more expensive hiring costs might be possible as well.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted July 21, 2011 07:53 AM |
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I think what Elvin is saying is that on the battlefield in H5 the tides could change in one solitary turn which is imbalanced....ie. I played against a warlock hero with booster on ice and he took out my titans and rakas in one turn with circle of winter and warlock's luck....that changed the entire battle from that single hit....in H6 I don't think this will be possible, you have to strategize and play a more chess like approach.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 21, 2011 03:41 PM |
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You know people,the issues of army movement, last castle standing hunt could be easiliy fixed.
A grarrison army,not only bought creatures, should have the ability to travel via caravans to you destined castle,hero or out post. Those caravas could be moving a lot faster than your hero,effectively making it possible to reinforce your hero.The phenomenal mobility of chaining would be removed in this process.
if you take your standart game, and there are 5 castles in the map,if one faction mamanges to control more than 50% of them in the map,that faction could be declared victorius,in a week or so.The issue of hunting the last bunny dancing hero would be fixed,games would be effectively faster.
Being able to kill 300 black dragons has nothing to do with chaining.If you lose your secondary hero,you can create another one.Hit and running would still be possible.
The things that would do good to any game include removing game exploits(Chaining),removing randomness(all of a sudden the enemy manages to do 5 lucky strikes in a row...) and fixing balance-glitches-bugs.
Chaining would still be possible after these changes,jsut create a map which spawns a tavern near your castle that does not limit you to ecruit heroes.
In the end,wannabe pro's ,noobs, your neighbours and the girls nearby would be happy.
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Clay_Man
Known Hero
TOH gamer
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posted July 21, 2011 11:04 PM |
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This discussion seems a bit pointless.
If you're a casual player, you will use little or no chaining.
If you're playing competitively, you probably gonna use it anyway (assuming it will be necessary in order to win).
Therefore, cutting a trademark mechanic from the game seems rather pointless, if no one's bothered by it at all.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 22, 2011 12:15 AM |
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Quote:
Therefore, cutting a trademark mechanic from the game seems rather pointless, if no one's bothered by it at all.
But somebody was bothered by it ...
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What will happen now?
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted July 22, 2011 05:31 AM |
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In all honesty though, this kind of tactics/exploits will always exist in a game with multiplayer competition. The pros use it because they play to win (at all cost), the casual player most likely don't use it (or not regularly) because it seems silly and unfair. So it depends on your perspective.
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted July 22, 2011 10:49 AM |
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Edited by B0rsuk at 10:50, 22 Jul 2011.
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A trademark mechanic would be Sulphur, Gems, Crystals and Mercury. It's not just flavor - although it reinforced the atmosphere of wonder, and made it look like you're dabbling in alchemy.
1) Suppose rare resources are in general middle of the map. Then you have two choices:
- capture your rare resource, getting level7 troops and likely allowing your opponent to do the same
- A dog in the manger: don't allow your opponent to get the rare resource and sacrifice access to level7 troops yourself.
Factions are not equal. A player with a cheap faction may prefer fights with lower levels, knowing that allowing a wizard or warlock to develop will reduce his advantage.
2) If you have 3+ towns, your town development plans may be affected by your resource stockpile. Lots of sulphur - go for dragons. Lots of crystal - cyclops.
Now, Heroes will have not just common creature pool, but also common resource pool. I think I'll play some more of Heroes1.
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Karanshade
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 22, 2011 04:44 PM |
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In my little community of online players , I m regarded as quite good. Why ? because I use and abuse of what u guyz call chaining. I knwo where to place secondary heroes so that the chains possibilities are optimal, I enjoy the thinking ahead that is somewhat involved. More than once , we have replayed some of my friend's defeat reverting roles to change defeat to victory using different chaining arrangements.
So what i mean to say is that I understand Salamander's point of view and his attachement to chaining. that being said.... it is artificial. Let 's face it , even so it is tactical , it feels out of place...I really appreciate the idea of removing chaining from valid tactics and move on to something new.I find Heroes6 new directions more interresting.The developpement of the Empire vs a strange chain of stupid secondaries
As I see it , it s pretty much the same as the chaining btw !
You have to think in terms of nodes , of places of interrest in your chain . Before u had to have secondaries to occupy those nodes. Now it s the cities. Each city having a different potential in term of access to the global pool of reinforcement depending on the city buildings.
So U lose the artificial creeping tough
Now u have to think in term of zone of control and empire extension. A fully-build castle is a strong node to gain or to lose because of the acces it has to the 'defending pool' while a lesser town is easier to capture but only ensure a weak temporary control over a zone.In some sense it feels more like go or chess.
This is indeed a revolution in heroes tactics imho , one that we can not really explore with only one hotseat map... u might not be as enthousiastic as I am but comon please admit this is worth a try !
My point is , if u are really good MP gamer , then try to adapt and see how it feels !
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