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| Thread: Altruism is evil |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Fauch
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posted July 19, 2011 02:06 PM |
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that makes me think of "religious" people who felt they had to torture themselves and never experience pleasure to be close from god.
it would be quite silly to live only for other people and not get any pleasure from it. if everyone did it, would the world be a happiest place? I doubt it. but I'm quite sure that the few people acting selfishly would be extremly happy to have hordes of servants.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted July 19, 2011 02:18 PM |
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@Corribus, here's something to ponder:
Let's say we meet some aliens and they come to live amongst us (or us amongst them). It's fairly likely that you would be able to find occurences of true altruism, and by "true" I mean absolutely no expectation of reciprocity. So how would that square with the fundamental selfishness of the gene?
Here is the thing: Your brain is hardwires to expect that people will most likely treat you like you treat them, if its not all that is needed to get that point is just a class lesson.
I refuse to aknowledge that "helping other people" means to be altruistic, because the definiton is soo broadly broad that it can safely ignore any critic.
A scenario:
1. A sociopath hides his lack of emotions, and helps people for the sake of the ulterior longerm motive.
2. A normal person does the same as in scenario 1, but does not force himself to look/behave that nice
3. A person just helps people, for the sake of helping people
My large and big issue with "altruism" is that we define guy nr 1 as a altruist, on equal like with person nr 3(who may even be a true altruist), even when person nr 1 is equalled with the egoist of person nr 2 instead.
Person nr 1 and nr 2 is egoists, working for themselves, and there is just a subtle difference in what they are barely even percepted as.
Another issue is that the "altruistic action" is just to take orders, and do them, without even a second thought.
Not thinking is the greatest evil there is, on equal like with not properly checking what you are doing, and not doing your job.
As for Sematics: If you define altruism as "helping people", then we have nothing more to talk about.
If you define altruism as something because other people told you, learn the original meaning.
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Doomforge
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Retired Hero
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posted July 19, 2011 02:24 PM |
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That hardy makes the act evil, does it?
Never said it's evil 
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JollyJoker
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posted July 19, 2011 02:42 PM |
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Another issue is that the "altruistic action" is just to take orders, and do them, without even a second thought.
Not thinking is the greatest evil there is, on equal like with not properly checking what you are doing, and not doing your job.
Huh? You lost me there.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 19, 2011 03:11 PM |
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Altruism is circling taxes and cheating the state.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 19, 2011 04:18 PM |
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Helping people might be less beneficial than not helping thmm ,thinking materialisticly. However,we help people because we feel good when we do that.
If people define feeling good as selfish,than helping people is selfish.
As some people said here,it is hardwired in our brains.
Using the term good and bad is wrong though.
You cannot demonize something while making other things heavenly rightenous.
If somebody killed 11 people just because he felt the need to,it has the same moral weight as some banker making money from other people losing it.They did it on the same moral standard,personal gain. Thinking on the physical proportions,the one who killed 11 people,ruined 11 lives,which makes him more "evil" than the one stealing money "Legaly" from people.
Both of them dont care about morals,just that "good feeling".
It might be a bad example,but I wanted to show that the moral of most things is gain,only the consequences differ.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted July 19, 2011 04:39 PM |
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Helping people is a feel good? Horse-feathers
When I have dragged someone's butt out of the water it was because they were drowning. However, when I've helped, most of the time it has been because they would be out on the streets, if I did not help. Where is the "feel-good" in the suffering of others? What planet am I on. Good grief.
Most of the time I have to remember something about a cheerful giver, instead of grumbling and warning as much as I do.
<IMO>Happy? Cheerful? What's that stuff? There's way too much need around for me to ever land there. As a matter of fact these days; many that are needing the help are the same ones who are hell-bent on endless pleasure "those happy-feelings" and forgettting all about rainy-days.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 19, 2011 05:22 PM |
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The need to help someone who is drowning is hardwired into you through evolution. I'm not sure that such an action counts as altruism, though. I guess it depends on how you define it.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted July 19, 2011 05:43 PM |
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The need to help someone who is drowning is hardwired into you through evolution.
I would agree, if you would mean the tangible evolution of the human-mind.
But, I know you mean the accepted variety and the evidance would suggest otherwise. e.g dozens of "evolved people" walk by a dying man lying in the streets.
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I'm not sure that such an action counts as altruism, though. I guess it depends on how you define it.
<imo> That net captures all discussion here in the OSM, hence my infrequent visits
Make a great day
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Corribus
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The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 19, 2011 06:06 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 18:07, 19 Jul 2011.
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I would agree, if you would mean the tangible evolution of the human-mind.
I don't know what this means.
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But, I know you mean the accepted variety and the evidance would suggest otherwise. e.g dozens of "evolved people" walk by a dying man lying in the streets.
Dozens of (millions of) people have bad eyesight as well - that doesn't mean the human eye didn't evolve to clearly see visible light.
Furthermore, traits don't exist in a vacuum. The social benefits of altruism are constantly being weighed against the individual benefits of immediate self-preservation. Capacity for emotion, and particularly compassion, is a trait that we evolved to have, for reasons I have already laid out. On the other hand, our capacity to weigh risks and benefits and make conscious decisions is also a trait that came about through evolution.
When some people see another person drowning, their compassion causes them to dive in and save the person. In many cases this decision is made instinctively, without conscious thought. (Why do you suppose that is?) Other other cases, the person does think about it. But you're right: No, not everyone would save a drowning victim. Some of those people may not have the skill of swimming. Some may be able to swim, but judge the risks of saving the person outweigh the possible benefits. Some just don't give a crap at all about other people, and only care about themselves - even if they can swim excellently, they keep on walking.
Well that doesn't disprove an evolutionary theory of emotion and compassion - it only is suggestive that, like every other trait, capacity for emotion comes in various quantities. Some of that may be biological and some of that may be cultural (which is really just abstract biology), but if we accept that evolution leads to people with different heights and weights and eye colors and skin colors and all manner of various degrees of this and that, why would you expect that evolution would lead to monochromatism when it comes to the urge to help out fellow humans?
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted July 19, 2011 08:02 PM |
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I would agree, if you would mean the tangible evolution of the human-mind.
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I don't know what this means.
I do believe in the evolution of human thought, well, and also the demise of thought. Hmmm, I'm already way off-topic of this thread.
I do "good deeds" (my meaning) because I "choose" to. Further, many times, I did not desire my action and grumbled all the way, but I did help regardless. Not for ego, nor pride, no a tally in heaven but because I believed it was the right thing to do and <imo> that's a "values" issue.
How can a person running into a burning-building and pulling another person out of the fire, have their actions reduced to test-tube thinking? People are greater than animals. If that is not true than our dogs would cook us dinner tonight.
I mean zero disrepect Corribus but you know how much you get sick of Faith stuff? Well, evolution is just as gag-matic to me. So I will humbly bow out and (seriously) go check on our dogs. It's hotter than hades today. And before anyone can post...they are not in the my AC because they like to destroy things. They've a cool spot to retreat and have it far better than many humans.
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xerox
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posted July 20, 2011 03:37 AM |
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I don't understand this thread. Why would it be "evil" to help people? And what is evil? I don't see the world in black and white, good and evil.
The only people on Earth that I seriously do not care at all about are pretty much all poor people living in subsaharan Africa. I really don't care about starvation in eastern Africa now etc, there has been droughts there for thousands of years and yet they haven't done anything about it like any real civilization or society would have done ages ago.
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Seraphim
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Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 20, 2011 04:18 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 04:20, 20 Jul 2011.
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I don't understand this thread. Why would it be "evil" to help people? And what is evil? I don't see the world in black and white, good and evil.
The only people on Earth that I seriously do not care at all about are pretty much all poor people living in subsaharan Africa. I really don't care about starvation in eastern Africa now etc, there has been droughts there for thousands of years and yet they haven't done anything about it like any real civilization or society would have done ages ago.
It all depends on how much you want to take the truth or remain ignorant like you are now.
The truth is,those people lived differently from our ancestors and they have had different problems.There was never e city in Australia when people went there.Why? Because the climate was not good there.It was more beneficial to keep moving because the climate was that way.See Aborigini life in Austraila. Same can be said about those poor africans.
They are born poor add have never had the chance to change that because of what their living conditions are. Agriculture requires water supply,good climates and support.
Our pathetic civilisations are not eager to help them if they dont have some kind of natural resource...You know,life does not have to the way it is right now.Afterall,we still live with the moral values of the ancinent Roman empire.That might need a change.
Dont you see how snowed up this world is Xerox? You cant expect somebody who has no water to drink to work like an average european and start earning his living debt... I mean money.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 20, 2011 05:23 AM |
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I do "good deeds" (my meaning) because I "choose" to.
Of course you do. But have you ever asked why humans would even think to make such a choice at the expense of their own direct interests?
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I mean zero disrepect Corribus but you know how much you get sick of Faith stuff? Well, evolution is just as gag-matic to me.
LOL - I don't feel disrespected, but you're wrong that I get sick of Faith stuff. I just get sick of the way it is often presented.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 20, 2011 07:51 AM |
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I'm not sure what genetics will prove or not prove here. We have a hardwired survival drive as well. Still people are fully able to ignore it.
So does it depend on the individual hardwired system of checks and balances whether we save someone, ignoring self-preservation or run away, ignoring any hard-wirde altruism?
Is that the point? Then all moral considerations are moot anyway.
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Fauch
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posted July 20, 2011 01:32 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 13:33, 20 Jul 2011.
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that discussion is a bit weird, that's kinda like a selfish person justifying his attitude. "oh, altruism? well, actually that's just egoism" "it's in our genes, and genes are selfish"
btw, how can you claim that genes are selfish? can a gene think and take decisions? you don't say that a computer is selfish when it doesn't work the way you want, do you?
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Insanity
Known Hero
Brain cells killa
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posted July 20, 2011 02:09 PM |
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eeeeek me haz to say that op and logic didnt meet in this lifetime, me never read something so silly,
op, plz join the club of peepzzz who lie to themselves insanely, ur not a nice person so just accept it or change, instead of selling your fantasiezz to us 
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 20, 2011 03:26 PM |
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@Fauch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selfish_gene_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selfish_gene
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted July 20, 2011 04:45 PM |
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The only reason people feel the need to help each other is because, in some way, it helps themselves. Genes are inherently selfish.
I don't buy it.
There are plenty of examples of people who once lived their lives as straight up jerks who transformed and became nice people who help others. Dawkin's view that we are just "dancing to our genes" is a sad and erroneous view of life. We chose who we will become by our thoughts and actions that we chose each day. Radical transformations happen in people and that would not be possible if we were just slaves of our genes. Someone who once would step on a person lying on the sidewalk stops and helps them instead.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 20, 2011 04:55 PM |
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Elodin, people radically change their health and fitness as well - that doesn't mean our health and other physical characteristics are not fundamentally determined by genetics.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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