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| Thread: San Franscisco considers declaring ex-cons a protected minority group |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV |
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Corribus
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posted July 25, 2012 12:42 AM |
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The reason laws like that are important is to prevent vigilantism.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Elodin
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posted July 25, 2012 11:47 AM |
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Quote:
The reason laws like that are important is to prevent vigilantism.
If I understand you correctly, you think a rape victim should not be allowed to tell others who raped her because there is a possibility someone may take revenge on the rapist?
Or if for instance someone broke in your house and stole your stuff and got no time for his crime you should not be allowed to warn his neighbors that he is a thief?
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted July 25, 2012 01:34 PM |
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What she did complicated matters, whether it was the right thing to do is another matter, but complicating things by breaking a court mandated order is generally a 'bad' thing.
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Corribus
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posted July 25, 2012 02:15 PM |
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Last time I checked Elodin people in this country are innocent until proven guilty.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
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posted July 25, 2012 03:30 PM |
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What I don't understand is the court order.
I mean, why do the defendants get special rights?
If someone goes ahead and starts telling everyone - even via the web - that X and Y did this and that, rape Z, kill A, torture B, whatever, those people can file an injunction suit or sue because of slander. "Someone" is not automatically punished.
That is the same thing the other way round - if someone was raped, they can sue the rapists (and what a priviledge that is).
So why were the defendants protected by court order? After all, they can always sue their victim, file an injunction suit...
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted July 25, 2012 03:34 PM |
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For the third ****ing time, because that is what was agreed in the plea bargain.
They go down without a fuss, their identities don't get revealed. simples.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Elodin
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posted July 25, 2012 04:30 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 16:32, 25 Jul 2012.
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Quote:
Last time I checked Elodin people in this country are innocent until proven guilty.
Yes people are considered by the legal system to be innocent until proven guilty.
So, to you that means if your neighbor, Bob Jones, came to your house and punched you in the face you should not be allowed to tell other people that Bob Jones punched you in the face until he had been convicted in a court of law, eh? Even if ol' Bob recorded the incident and posted it on the internet.
Seems kind of silly to me and a violation of free speech rights of the victim of the crime.
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Salamandre
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posted July 25, 2012 04:34 PM |
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In general, names and even photos of attackers are released to the public prior to their judgment, maybe this unique case has to deal with special facts. I heard that in the photos posted over 4chan, the girl is seen on top of guys, and noticeably having fun. So it may not be so clean rape after all.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 25, 2012 04:36 PM |
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You also promised not to tell anyone he punched you in the face.
Which in turn makes you a liar and a violator of a legally binding deal.
The girl was wrong in this case. Quite simple.
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del_diablo
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posted July 25, 2012 06:19 PM |
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The problem with "court" is that its not a consenting 2 part system. Its the court itself, lawyers, police offiers, offending and prosecuting part. Lets say court says for you to not do something, but you disagree, then what? It is one of the many hurdles of a legal system, and it doesn't surprise me one bit.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 25, 2012 06:32 PM |
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Well, that's NOT what happened. The prosecutor - who does his work not for the girl, but for and in the name of the people - made a deal with the lawyers of the boys, without asking the girl first. She din't promised anything. Instead the deal says, the boys will go down QUIETLY, if no one talks about it, including the girl.
I think, that's pretty ridiculous, actually, especially considering the web activities of the boys. In any case, it's like HER being punished AS WELL (you are not allowed to say anything!).
Eeven if she gets a penalty because of contempt, the case will attract a lot of media coverage anyway, so she will get what she wants.
I think she also is right to do it on general principle, because I think the deal is wrong - she would have to had been asked at least, whether she would agree to it.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted July 25, 2012 06:50 PM |
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The prosecution ( ) attorney had to have agree to the the plea bargain.
And evidence shows that she was well aware of what she was doing and knew the repercussions of her actions.
"there ya go, lock me up" is what she wrote after she named the boys.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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JollyJoker
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posted July 25, 2012 08:15 PM |
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I'm very, verry sorry to say so, but you are really starting to piss me off with your posts, Tsar-Ivor, because they are lacking... well, a lot.
In which way is your post connected to our counters anything I wrote?
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The defense attorney had to have agree to the the plea bargain.
In case you are unaware - the defense attorney(s) are the lawyers of the boys, because it's the boys who are the defendants. The girl has no attorney... or lawyer.
Quote:
And evidence shows that she was well aware of what she was doing and knew the repercussions of her actions.
"there ya go, lock me up" is what she wrote after she named the boys
Yeah, so? I didn't claim otherwise.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted July 25, 2012 08:38 PM |
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The girl has no attorney... or lawyer.
In that case why would she have any say in the deal?
Besides, you didn't exactly add anything new, everything you've written was already typed up, so I find it ironic that you consider my posts to be lacking 
Even more so since you expect me to counter my own posts.
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I think, that's pretty ridiculous, actually, especially considering the web activities of the boys. In any case, it's like HER being punished AS WELL (you are not allowed to say anything!).
Apparently the 'juveniles' took images and posted it on the net (confirming this) which just makes this even dumber, she's exposed, and they're not?
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The prosecutor, made a deal with the lawyers of the boys, without asking the girl first. She din't promised anything. Instead the deal says, the boys will go down QUIETLY, if no one talks about it, including the girl.
It wasn't a court order per-se, the attorneys made a deal if I know anything of law to keep the kiddies identities a secret.
quote:The deal would've gone something like thus: "we go admit our crimes without a fuss and not leach any more tax dough, and ya'll give us a boon, let's say our identities kept secret, you know, we don't want to be harassed for our deeds.
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Eeven if she gets a penalty because of contempt, the case will attract a lot of media coverage anyway, so she will get what she wants.
Practically speaking, only an idiot would hold a rape victim in contempt for revealing the identity of rapists, especially if they are elected and want to serve another term. While the judge would be acting within her authority, it would have been political suicide.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Elodin
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posted July 26, 2012 09:17 AM |
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The prosecutor should not be able to sign away the free speech rights of the victim of the crime. I also think that any deal the prosecutor cuts with a criminal should have to be approved by the victim of the crime.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 26, 2012 10:27 AM |
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That's my point as well, even though I think it goes even deeper than that.
What is happening here is, that the prosecutor is completely DISREGARDING the interests and even selling the rights of the actually wronged party, in the interest of being able to chalk up what I would call an easy victory and be done with the "job".
I mean, I understand that "deals" are a very common practice in US judicial system, but if the prosecution and the defendants make deals at the expense of the wronged party or their basic rights, then something cannot be right with the system anymore.
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OmegaDestroyer
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posted July 26, 2012 08:21 PM |
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Quote:
The prosecutor should not be able to sign away the free speech rights of the victim of the crime. I also think that any deal the prosecutor cuts with a criminal should have to be approved by the victim of the crime.
The problem is that the victim is not a party to the crime. The victim is just evidence in a criminal matter.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 26, 2012 09:12 PM |
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Does it matter whose basic rights are sold and whether they are party of the crime or not?
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