|
| Thread: 8 month old genderless child. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
posted September 10, 2011 02:26 AM |
|
Edited by Corribus at 02:46, 10 Sep 2011.
|
Quote:
Then say what you think children should be taught about gender, so there would be no ambiguity. As you can see from my post, I don't understand what you're saying. Either you want to teach societal gender roles normatively, positively, or not at all, and I don't understand which of these three positions you're taking.
(1) Parents shouldn't socially experiment with their children.
(2) Parents should let their children discover their sexual identity naturally. It's not my duty as a parent (especially a male parent) to tell my daughter what it means to be female. She needs to discover that on her own, and she needs to do that while interacting with society.
As for gender specifically, I will teach my child the same thing I'll teach her for religion, culture, and everything else: be what you want to be and believe what you want to believe, but before you make a choice, understand your options and understand what society thinks about each of your options.
If you want to know the truth, I think "conformity" has become one of those words that losers and social outcasts use with derision whenever someone else wants to be or is part of society's mainstream.
I give my daughter a barbie doll and the progressive, ultraliberal feminists criticize me for being a "slave to sexual roles" and for condemning my poor girl to a life of servitutde and slavery in a "male-dominated, chauvinistic world". I give my daughter a toy truck and the conservative bible thumpers criticize me for contributing to the degeneration of "traditional family values", the promulgation of "sexually deviant behavior", and the destruction of childhood innocence.
In truth I give my daughter a barbie doll or a truck because THAT'S WHAT SHE ASKS FOR. My daughter likes barbie dolls because her friends like barbie dolls and playing with barbie dolls makes her happy. My daughter likes the color pink because her friends like pink, and buying her pink things makes her happy. Sure, when she was an infant we gave her pink things because that's what people buy for girls. Does that make me a commie conformist? *shrugs* Did that start her on a downhill spiral that will inevitably mean she'll end up making unfair wages, squirting out babies by the dozen, and wearing Donna Reed dresses? Cooking and cleaning while her husband puffs away at a cigar in an evening jacket? *shrugs* You're right, maybe I should be thinking of the long-term social consequences to society that could result from me purchasing a $15 barbie doll for my daughter's birthday.
Then again, maybe a barbie doll is just a barbie doll and all I really care about is seeing a smile on my daughter's face.
In the end, my daughter chooses to wear dresses on her own. She likes wearing hairbands, and putting makeup on, and playing princess. Do I push her to that? Maybe, maybe not. Does society push her to that? Probably, to some degree. Is she a slave to predetermined sexual roles?
Aren't we all slaves to something?
I'm comfortable with whatever choices my daughter makes, and I'm comfortable with however she chooses to identify herself. And even if I wasn't, it's her right to make mistakes. It's her life to live. My goal as a parent isn't to make choices for my child. It's to teach my child to make good choices for herself. And making good choices involves understanding complex societal issues. My issue with the parents in the OP article is that the parents aren't teaching their child how to make choices. They're preventing their child from having to.
In short, your question is easy to answer. I'm not out to teach my child gender roles at all. I'm out to teach my child how to choose whatever role she wants for herself. Maybe she'll choose to be a "typical girl", and the liberals were sneer and call her "conformist". Maybe she'll be a tomboy and the conservatives will sneer and call her a "moral degenerate". Maybe she'll be something in between. No matter what how she chooses to define herself, someone will probably call her something, and she'll have to deal with it... because, well, that's what being part of society is all about. Which is the whole point, isn't it?
Well, whatever she chooses, I'll love her all the same. Because that's what being a parent is all about.
|
|
gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 03:05 AM |
|
|
There we go! Article added to the OP. So my faulty memory was wrong, their not part of the US... they're Canadians! You'd think that this would give them some sort of common sense... 
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 03:40 AM |
|
|
Quote:
If you were to separate a newborn from society and raised it until the age of 18 without outside contact, could the kid possibly function in the real world?
there is one way to know. maybe the kid could actually turn awesome 
|
|
gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 03:44 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
If you were to separate a newborn from society and raised it until the age of 18 without outside contact, could the kid possibly function in the real world?
there is one way to know. maybe the kid could actually turn awesome
... Derp, let's do it.
Social perversion experimenter, away! *Goes off to steal a newborn*
... Kidding, of course. Odds are that the kid would be messed up and a bit anti-social.
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
|
|
friendofgunnar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 06:22 AM |
|
|
Del Diablo
Quote:
I wanted what toys everybody indirectly told me to get.
Nope, I don't buy this. When boys ask for toys they want robots, toothy dinosaurs, and soldiers. When girls ask for toys they want dollies, playhouses, and cute animals. In both cases it's their chromosomes that's directing them, not the culture. YES THERE'S EXCEPTIONS because there's a natural diversity in the human gene pool.
Sports toys and gear is an interesting exception to this however. American culture has always associated this with boys and in this case I think the bias is true. In other words I think that in a completely culturally neutral upbringing you'd find an an equal predilection towards sports stuff amongst both girls and boys.
Yeah, the blue/pink dichotomy is an arbitrary cultural inheritance. Nothing more needs to be said about that.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the parents of the genderless baby are actually going to suppress these natural instincts in the name of creating an atmosphere of gender freedom. That would be disappointing, but I suppose there's plenty worse ways to screw up your kids than that.
|
|
del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 10:21 AM |
|
|
|
Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 10:50 AM |
|
|
Erm I've explained this already in another thread to no success, so I'm going to use the most basic format to describe what I mean and pray to god someone will understand
Girls are different to Boys and I ain't refering to the genatalia only, I'm talking about severe hormone differences.
My god man if this isn't embedded firmly in your common sense then things are worse then I forst anticipated, hence why I agree with Cor, he stated that girls are different to boys, they should be treated with equal rights, but in the end treated differently, NOT DISCRIMINATED, simply differently, and this all comes down to what you know of men and women, personnaly this is what the government should research, Buuuut Men and women both stem from different sources and each individual is different, women and men are more so.
Everytime I said someone should be treated differently people always assumed the worst 
For example 1-5 are boys, 6-10 are girls, 1 & 10 being the furthest from each other, 5 is closer to a 6 so more feminine or masculine, but he will never be a 6 and vice-versa. 10 & 1 are 'extremeists' 10 being a girly girl & 1 being a manly man, this is because their nature is less influence from the opposite sex.
this should clarify my example:
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
|
|
del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 11:01 AM |
|
|
Tsar-Ivor: I asked what "gender identity" meant, and not some random mumbo jumbo about our current social status quo.
I don't find your elaboration to contain anyting but "i got a opinon, and i will to be vague in wording it, so nobody will be able to criticize it".
The question is:
What example of "difference" can I in a analogy,
that can also be used to demonstrate that any negligible differences
is not large enough to force a social meme,
Which end result is "A and B is the same, yet we MUST learn them to be different, because society said so!".
For instance: What does "feminine" mean?
Submissive?
Sexy?
Dressing like a snow?
Liking pink?
Liking social relations?
Being elegant?
Raging from PMS?
And what is masculine in contrast?
I am asking for the definition you use in your post, and not what the words actually mean.
So: Why can't a boy be a 10 and a girl be a 1 on that scale? What prevents it? Why the double standard?
____________
|
|
Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 11:04 AM |
|
|
Besides you asked for my opinion of what gender identity is mumbo jumbo or not, if not then your request is absurd, because gender identity is unique to each and every individual, infinite variations, i did my best to try and explain it to you with just 10 variations. The amount of feminism and masculinity makes up the so called gender identity and that was my point .
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
|
|
del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 11:08 AM |
|
|
Tsar: No, what I asked is "What is this term 'gender identity' you speak about with such large words?".
I am not a native English speaker, nor am I indoctrinate with what its suppose to mean, so I want to know what the term means.
Look at it this way:
Why is metal different from wood?
Because metal has certain properties wood also has, but both are solid materials.
So I asked:
What is "identity" different from "gender identity"?
What different properties are there, and what makes it exist in a world where there are no gender meta even if genders exist?
____________
|
|
Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 11:11 AM |
|
|
Well then:
Quote:
gender identity 
noun
a person's inner sense of being male or female, usually developed during early childhood as a result of parental rearing practices and societal influences and strengthened during puberty by hormonal
You'd need to stereotypically generalise them in order to come to a conclusion as to what makes women or men 'tick' and the difference between the two, if you've read what i've said then you'd understand that this is impossible, because the results will be incorrect, due to the fact that every individual is different and that they may stem from the same source they go in every direction. That is what I was trying to say.
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
|
|
del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 11:13 AM |
|
|
By that definiton it needs to die in a fire.
Quetions?
____________
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 02:10 PM |
|
|
|
in that case, what's the problem with parents not telling the child if he/she is a boy or a girl since it's supposed to be hardcoded into him?
|
|
Insanity
Known Hero
Brain cells killa
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 05:52 PM |
|
|
poor babzziee, silly parenting, 2 much of that around 
____________
|
|
Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 06:15 PM |
|
|
Insanity just summed it up nicely  now lets shake hands and roll out the beer kegs ! or not >.>
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
|
|
Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 06:45 PM |
|
|
As much i see this baby when he/she/it will grow up (like in the adolescence) shall express it's gender Imho, since everyone in this crucial path express it in some way, for example the instinct of a man would give an attraction to a woman, (if not an abomination) so i think when it will grow up everyone will know the gender.
So as much i see this has touched everyone for now it is a scoop,
but make it grow up and as I said it will be ordinary (if not an abomination).
Anyway the diversion of the roles in our social system is not like in the past, if it was born in the times of the Turkish rule (in the 1200 in Palestine) then I think it would be illegal, since the man has many rights and womans are directed to be married with a man (even if he is already married since in muslim faith poligamy is legit As far as I know), but in our times the difference is genetical, since in our age woman can work for their family.
Oh and about colors many my friends think purple is girly, but if you think it it is illogical since purple is the color for funerals and mournings so the assignment of a coulour to a gender is only about imagination since you could like a color but dislike another.
That's all my opinion compressed to fit the post.
____________
Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
|
|
Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 07:12 PM |
|
|
Purple is Regal! Now I demand a thousand apologies or I'll forever be offended ! ( )
But you make an interesting point, similar to Gunnar's one-liner.
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
|
|
gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 07:15 PM |
|
|
Quote:
(if not an abomination)
So, Neraus, which country/ state/ Provence do you hail from?
Just curious since you didn't post in the newcomer's threads...
And you are right about color identities, they change almost without fail from culture to culture. Here, pink is a girly color, while in middle-eastern countries it is viewed as a variant on red and is manly. This still does not change the fact that the child should learn what rolls their particular culture has for them. If their culture looks down on men who wear pink, then they should know about that and decide if they care. But the child should be given fair chance to decide and taught what is in store for them while they are growing up, otherwise they will be crippled in society. Because color is oh-so-important. [/sarcasm]
What is is about colors, people? Personally, I dislike red in all it's variations if it's alone (Red house on fire=*Shudder*), but beyond that it really is just a matter of what you find attractive. There really isn't anything gender-specific about them. Sure, children should be given the chance to decide what they like, but they will do that despite their genders. Children might care about who likes what color, but how many adults really care? Color preference really doesn't matter when compared to gender stereotypes, hell it's just a small part of those stereotypes, not even that important.
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
|
|
Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 08:52 PM |
|
|
Well it's just my fault about newcomers threads since when I register I don't ever (and I can confirm) never post there, just because i forget to. So I come from the Italian southern region Sicily in the little city Caltagirone (well it has not an English translation).
Continuing about colors, in japan pink is the color of death as it's associated i think to roses, see infact personally Purple Black and Blue are my favorite colors, the ones i said in my previous post when they were little kids they said it was a girly colour, to me it was a great color, but let's not diverge on my childhood.
|
|
Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
|
|
posted September 10, 2011 08:55 PM |
|
|
I say let's do so... Keep talking el mafioso, colors, brothers and Sicilian way.... you were saying ?
____________
She turned me into a newt!
A newt?
I got better
|
| |
|
|
