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| Thread: Some Thoughs on the Heroes Formula |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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e3772014
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 01, 2011 07:17 AM |
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Read his post anyway, enumbers. He makes some good points despite the lack of spellcheck.
There are enough non-English-speaking people who post on this forum that if you're not willing to meet people halfway when it comes to language and spelling, you'll never get anything done.  Sure, it goes both ways - if you're posting on an English forum, you should make an effort to not murder the language - but let's not make the discussion about grammar and syntax, shall we?
He made many good points that I agree with, but which do not support his argument at all. He's criticizing heroes 6 as a whole, because having more choices ultimately did not make heroes 6 a more strategic game at its current state.
However, this can be remedied by making more town build routes more attractive, more creatures balanced, while the system he's suggesting, like in heroes 5, with rigid build routes, do not give you that choice at all.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted October 01, 2011 08:12 AM |
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However, this can be remedied by making more town build routes more attractive, more creatures balanced
Agreed, more freedom to players to choose what he want to do, no stupid restrictions.
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heroes 5, with rigid build routes, do not give you that choice at all.
Not agree. Heroes 5 have less choises, but still have a lot. For example : On some maps you choose to build treants over dragons because to take Dragon Utopia earlier. Other examples: To build treants or to upgrade archers to arcanes, dragons or capitol, dragons or castle, magic guild or creatures dwelings ...
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I've always hated alternative upgrades/creatures
In H5 alternative upgrades introduced lots of new counters, lots of strategic depth.
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I'd rather have an extra faction or two than alternatives.
Stop thinking like poor man. If game will be better with atlernatives and more factions then we should have them all, we deserve it, we pay for it ...
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted October 01, 2011 08:22 AM |
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I wasn't a fan of "alternates" as a concept, but that's mostly because I didn't like having to choose between two solid units. That's a big reason why I didn't like H4, in fact.
That said, if they were done better, they could still work well. What I think I would prefer is a second upgrade over an alternate upgrade, but that's just my personal feeling on the matter.
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted October 01, 2011 08:31 AM |
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Edited by B0rsuk at 08:32, 01 Oct 2011.
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However, this can be remedied by making more town build routes more attractive, more creatures balanced
Agreed, more freedom to players to choose what he want to do, no stupid restrictions.
"freedom to choose what you want" renders choices pointless. Choices are not interesting if they don't make you forgo something nice. "Devils or Bone Dragons ? Waaah, I want both, like in Heroes 3 !"
Aosaw: so you only like easy choices ? No-brainers are okay ?
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted October 01, 2011 08:38 AM |
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If you could understand logic better, maybe you would realize what I was saying...You're saying that IF more choices lead to ONE absolute best path, then that's a bad thing. Yes, of course that is. But few choices can ALSO lead to one absolute best path.
You're still not arguing against the system of having more freedom of choice.
I'm not even going to bother reading the rest because you obviously didn't care about your point enough to even do a simple spell check...
I understand very well what you are saying. Your opinion is, that absolute freedom gives the user more creativity and options. This may be the case in skills. I may not like the new skill system but yes it has its reasons. But not in construction. I can not build a roof without buildng the walls first. I can not build the walls without the foundations. And I can not build anything without stonecutters and carpenters to make me the material. If everybody could build houses, why are there homeless people? If everybody can grow food why are people starving? Why? because there are obstacles and those who find a way to overcome them get the advantage, and those who will chose the best strategy will get the biggest advantage.
Absolute freedom works if you are the only thing that influences your options. Construction is not one of those.
And for final words. I do think your post is insulting and I strongly dislike your aditude.
Edit:
in the most simplest words:
Nothing can stop you from creating a poem besides your self
But to publish a poem, that is a tortures journey whit many obsitcals to overcome.
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted October 01, 2011 08:55 AM |
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Aosaw: so you only like easy choices ? No-brainers are okay ?
That's kind of an oversimplification of what I'm getting at, but essentially yes. I play Heroes because I like the artwork, and not being able to see all the artwork in my army because I decided to get leprechauns instead of white tigers is frustrating. It's silly and cosmetic, but that's how I feel about it.
My favorite unit in Heroes 5, from a design perspective, was actually the Archer. I liked it because the base unit had an ability that the upgraded unit didn't have, and that was interesting. It meant that you had to make the decision to give something up in order to get more power. Granted, it was a no-brainer decision anyway, because marksmen would deal more damage by more than double, but it was an interesting trade-off. Peasants were the same way, although they were so useless as Peasants and Conscripts that it really only made sense to keep them as Peasants because of the gold income.
I would like to see more units like that, which force you to give up one potentially useful ability in order to boost the stats of a unit.
I also would like to see player colors reflected in the creature models, but I have no expectations of that actually happening.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 01, 2011 11:35 AM |
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I always felt in H3 that Stronghold was the best for strategic choices, because if you had the resources you could go for either Cyclops Kings or Ancient Behemoths in the first week, or take a more measured approach, or focus on your economy.
Also, more choices =/= more strategy, too many choices just swamps the player.
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted October 01, 2011 11:43 AM |
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I've always hated alternative upgrades/creatures
In H5 alternative upgrades introduced lots of new counters, lots of strategic depth.
It added some tactical choices, but I would argue nothing to the overall strategy of the game. It also added a lot of useless choices (and units), and that's never good. And If you had not played of a while you'd have to spend a lot of time reading the manual again to see what all the creature abilities were to make a choice. Some would say that's strategy and makes you think, I say it's useless tactics and unnecessary time consumption. I like he idea of chess; Simple rules, easy to learn and remember, but a LOT of strategy and hard to master.
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I'd rather have an extra faction or two than alternatives.
Stop thinking like poor man. If game will be better with atlernatives and more factions then we should have them all, we deserve it, we pay for it ...
I agree with that kind of thinking, except I don't necessarily believe the game will be better with alternatives.
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e3772014
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 01, 2011 03:01 PM |
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I understand very well what you are saying. Your opinion is, that absolute freedom gives the user more creativity and options. This may be the case in skills. I may not like the new skill system but yes it has its reasons. But not in construction. I can not build a roof without buildng the walls first. I can not build the walls without the foundations. And I can not build anything without stonecutters and carpenters to make me the material. If everybody could build houses, why are there homeless people? If everybody can grow food why are people starving? Why? because there are obstacles and those who find a way to overcome them get the advantage, and those who will chose the best strategy will get the biggest advantage.
Absolute freedom works if you are the only thing that influences your options. Construction is not one of those.
And for final words. I do think your post is insulting and I strongly dislike your aditude.
Edit:
in the most simplest words:
Nothing can stop you from creating a poem besides your self
But to publish a poem, that is a tortures journey whit many obsitcals to overcome.
Nope, you clearly still don't understand my point... Here, consider this simple fact: does the set A, B, C, and D have more permutations or the set of just A and B?
Game complexity by default is determined by the number of possible games, or permutations. This means that, assuming everything else EQUAL, more choices = more complexity.
As an example, consider the game go. It can be played on almost any size of a board, but it is a fact that a 19x19 go game is much more complex than a 9x9 go game.
Now you're going off on a tangent. Changing the topic won't help your argument, you know...I hope your next response will actually argue against the system rather than H6, imba choices, or starving people.
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e3772014
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 01, 2011 03:04 PM |
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"freedom to choose what you want" renders choices pointless. Choices are not interesting if they don't make you forgo something nice. "Devils or Bone Dragons ? Waaah, I want both, like in Heroes 3 !"
Aosaw: so you only like easy choices ? No-brainers are okay ?
You said so yourself that choices are not interesting if they don't make you forgo something nice..So choices can be good, after all. They just need balance. I think it's possible to make balanced alt upgrades, as long as the devs listen to the community.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 01, 2011 03:27 PM |
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Sorry e3772014, but I agree with Dave-Jame.
Town building should have pre-requisites.
My reasoning is not that you can get Champions in week 1, frankly it's very difficult to do that beacuse you need alot of gold and resources in the very first week to build them (on top of rank 3 town) which makes it almost impossible.
My reasoning is that it makes each factions' towns look the same and I think it leads to imbalance.
With pre-requisities you had to plan your week's build and alot of thought went into this which added to the micro-management aspect of the game....which Ubihole have taken away.
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e3772014
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 01, 2011 03:48 PM |
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Edited by e3772014 at 15:49, 01 Oct 2011.
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Sorry e3772014, but I agree with Dave-Jame.
Town building should have pre-requisites.
My reasoning is not that you can get Champions in week 1, frankly it's very difficult to do that beacuse you need alot of gold and resources in the very first week to build them (on top of rank 3 town) which makes it almost impossible.
My reasoning is that it makes each factions' towns look the same and I think it leads to imbalance.
With pre-requisities you had to plan your week's build and alot of thought went into this which added to the micro-management aspect of the game....which Ubihole have taken away.
I agree that the towns need more differentiation, but as it is, if the towns are the same, how does that lead to imbalance? Wouldn't it be harder to balance a game if the towns are vastly different?
"With pre-requisities you had to plan your week's build" And without prerequisites, you don't need to plan your week's build? Are you joking? The fewer the building choices, the less you have to plan. With prereqs all you do is pick a route. Without prereqs you need to pick individual buildings. Don't pretend that something is more complicated than it is. Even in competitive H3 and H5 it was not hard to pick routes. After a while you don't even think about it anymore. And as I've repeated throughout this thread, balancing the different choices is altogether a different matter and will take time. H5 was way worse in that department when it came out (not to mention many other problems...).
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted October 01, 2011 04:02 PM |
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Edited by Raelag84 at 16:08, 01 Oct 2011.
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...A lot of people complain about some installments failing to capture that heroes feel.. But is there really one? What does define this game, is there some special formula underlying the game's framework?...
There is one thing, and I call it the "Go feeling" I am not sure if you heard of the game "Go" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_%28game%29 but when you do play it you can feel it stressing parts of the brain that don't get as stressed when you play other board games like chess.
Though I can't put my finger on it exactly it is I can feel heroes of might and magic creates that same wonderful feeling that I get when I play "Go". My brain is just getting challenged in ways that it doesn't ways that I have never really felt anywhere else. Indeed Go and the Heroes of might and magic games are the only games that create this feeling for me.
As to the rest of your post I don't know if I agree or disagree with it, but I do find it fascinating to hear an opinion form someone who's job it is normally to listen to opinions, especially since many of those opinions are from me.
I will also confess that I am one of those people that has tried to impose upon the making of the game and this is not necessarily right (I will still hold out hope for a better Naga faction in heroes 7 lol)
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 01, 2011 04:02 PM |
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In H5 for necro town, if you wanted liches early you had to plan to build the other two pre-required buildings first, sacrificing ghosts and even vampires. In H6, you can go straight for the building you want....no planning. What's your vibe?
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e3772014
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 01, 2011 04:05 PM |
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In H5 for necro town, if you wanted liches early you had to plan to build the other two pre-required buildings first, sacrificing ghosts and even vampires. In H6, you can go straight for the building you want....no planning. What's your vibe?
...Are you saying it's hard to build the two prereq buildings? I'm not sure I understand your point. If you wanted the liches, then yes, you give up ghosts/vampires. It's still there in H6. If you want certain buildings by the end of week 1, you sacrifice other buildings. That is the same planning.
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted October 01, 2011 04:47 PM |
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Edited by Aosaw at 16:55, 01 Oct 2011.
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What he's saying is that in Heroes 5, the net cost of the Lich dwelling was not one building, but three. It took three days to build the Lich dwelling because you also had to build the two prerequisite buildings - which meant that once you decided you wanted liches, you had to be okay with the fact that you weren't going to get ghosts or vampires for another three days. Apart from forcing you to think about your building choices, it also gave the developers a little bit more leeway when determining the strength of liches versus vampires and ghosts. It's not just a question of what Tier the unit belongs to, but also how much it costs the player to acquire that unit. A Three-Building unit should be slightly more powerful than a One-Building unit.
In H6, the decision is simple. "If I don't get this today, I can get it tomorrow, and then I'll have both." Every building has the same building requirements, which means that the building strategy consists of choosing which unit you like best, and then just buying it.
That's not depth of strategy; that's grocery shopping.
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 01, 2011 05:06 PM |
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What he's saying is that in Heroes 5, the net cost of the Lich dwelling was not one building, but three. It took three days to build the Lich dwelling because you also had to build the two prerequisite buildings - which meant that once you decided you wanted liches, you had to be okay with the fact that you weren't going to get ghosts or vampires for another three days. Apart from forcing you to think about your building choices, it also gave the developers a little bit more leeway when determining the strength of liches versus vampires and ghosts. It's not just a question of what Tier the unit belongs to, but also how much it costs the player to acquire that unit. A Three-Building unit should be slightly more powerful than a One-Building unit.
In H6, the decision is simple. "If I don't get this today, I can get it tomorrow, and then I'll have both." Every building has the same building requirements, which means that the building strategy consists of choosing which unit you like best, and then just buying it.
That's not depth of strategy; that's grocery shopping.
QFT.
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e3772014
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 01, 2011 05:18 PM |
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Edited by e3772014 at 17:21, 01 Oct 2011.
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What he's saying is that in Heroes 5, the net cost of the Lich dwelling was not one building, but three. It took three days to build the Lich dwelling because you also had to build the two prerequisite buildings - which meant that once you decided you wanted liches, you had to be okay with the fact that you weren't going to get ghosts or vampires for another three days. Apart from forcing you to think about your building choices, it also gave the developers a little bit more leeway when determining the strength of liches versus vampires and ghosts. It's not just a question of what Tier the unit belongs to, but also how much it costs the player to acquire that unit. A Three-Building unit should be slightly more powerful than a One-Building unit.
In H6, the decision is simple. "If I don't get this today, I can get it tomorrow, and then I'll have both." Every building has the same building requirements, which means that the building strategy consists of choosing which unit you like best, and then just buying it.
That's not depth of strategy; that's grocery shopping.
So you're against people forming different strategies, picking their favourite units? The decision, as I see it, is very simple either way. You're going to have to give up something in a build order no matter what-and after a while of playing, it becomes automatic. You will pick buildings based on your opponent's faction, creeps on the map, etc, almost like an algorithm.
EDIT: you're also making h6 sound a lot easier than it is. Try playing on hard and doing "grocery shopping". If you try to go for champions in even the second week, you will be severely crippled in your development of other dwellings. The restrictions on buildings are there even without something artificial like prereqs you know...
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted October 01, 2011 05:18 PM |
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If I don't get this today, I can get it tomorrow, and then I'll have both.
Not really, in H6 beta 1.4 if i decide to build glories usualy i don't build other elite dwelling for some time. Because upgrading dwelling give also weakly population grow no time to build them all.
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted October 01, 2011 05:30 PM |
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Edited by Aosaw at 17:32, 01 Oct 2011.
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So you're against people forming different strategies, picking their favourite units? The decision, as I see it, is very simple either way. You're going to have to give up something in a build order no matter what-and after a while of playing, it becomes automatic. You will pick buildings based on your opponent's faction, creeps on the map, etc, almost like an algorithm.
EDIT: you're also making h6 sound a lot easier than it is. Try playing on hard and doing "grocery shopping". If you try to go for champions in even the second week, you will be severely crippled in your development of other dwellings. The restrictions on buildings are there even without something artificial like prereqs you know...
Stop oversimplifying for the sake of winning the argument.
I'm not against people picking their favorite units. If you like furies best, by all means use them. The problem with the "grocery list" method of design is that as soon as the player gains access to the Elite tier, they will almost always go for the Glories first, because they're the best of the options available. There's no "making do with what you have and learning to make it work", because the player can use their favorite strategy right off the bat with no additional effort.
I should also point out that giving each building a Town Level requirement would resolve a lot of these issues; I'm just trying to shed some light on a point of view you seem intent on belittling.
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Not really, in H6 beta 1.4 if i decide to build glories usualy i don't build other elite dwelling for some time. Because upgrading dwelling give also weakly population grow no time to build them all.
And how is that different from H5? You don't have to recruit the creatures right away - and in fact my strategy has always been to build the buildings first, recruit the creatures second. This part of the strategy hasn't changed. Or if it has, it's because you no longer build the other elite dwellings at all because you immediately chose the one unit you did want. Which to me sounds like grocery shopping.
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