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| Thread: Heroes 6 skill system - oppinions and suggestions for improvement |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 25, 2011 08:05 PM |
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Heroes 6 skill system - oppinions and suggestions for improvement
So, one of the major gripes I have with Heroes 6 is the new skill system, and from reading around on the forum, I'm far from the only one who recent the "supermarket skill system" where you can just pick whatever you like whenever you like it. Two reasons for not liking this is that it seems to favor cookie-cutter builds and that it reduces the strategic element that comes from having your decisions having consequences for further skill choices (if I pick this, I can't pick that, etc.).
So, let's try to look forward and discuss what can be done to perhaps improve the system to avoid some of these weeknesses. Personally, I have the following suggestion:
- In order to learn skills or spell from a school, you need first to take the "major" skill of appropriate level within this school.
For instance, in order to learn first level Light Magic spells, you'll need to learn Light Magic I first, and in order to learn second level Light Magic spells, you'll need to learn Light Magic II, etc. How this works for Might skills, I'll return to later.
This simple modification has two simple advantages:
1) It favors synergy - i.e., once you pick a school to develop, you can directly pick more skills within this school, whereas you'll have to invest more skillpoints to open up a new school.
2) It thereby makes the skill system more tactical and prevents extensive skill shopping.
It also adds some further options of interest, such as opposed skills - once you open one school, you can't open the opposite (for instance Light excludes Dark, Fire excludes Water, etc.), or at least you might need to learn some special skill (think H5 Twilight) in order to have opposed schools.
The problem comes with Might schools, which are currently a bit different from Magic schools: We have 7 Magic schools (which imo. are too many, but let that rest, we can't change that), and the advantage of this big number is that each faction only has access to the 5 of them. On the other hand, there are only 5 Might schools, and all factions have access to all 5. So my next suggestion would be:
Let's re-divide the Might skills into 7 new "schools", and make it so that each faction only has access to 5 of these.
What these 7 schools should be is not quite unambiguous, but a suggestion could be:
- Assailant: Takes offensive abilities from "Paragon" and "Warfare".
- Defender: Likewise takes deffensive abilities from "Paragon" and "Warfare".
- Charismatic Leader: Combines Leadership and Diplomacy skills from "Paragon" with architect and like from "Realm".
- Destiny's Chosen: Combines Luck and Enlightenment skills from "Paragon" with economist and like from "Realm"
- Tactics: Pretty much as is now.
- Logistics: Combines Logistics and Pathfinding skills from "Paragon" with Scouting from "Realm"
- Warcries: As is now. Equivalent of "Prime" from the Magic skills, i.e. generally available to all.
This is my suggestion for a re-devision, but the idea would be to hav esomething that mirrors the Magic system. Again, this would allow to have a Main skill within each school (of which the school takes name, Warcries would have a new skill to boost Warcries), and you'd have to learn the main skill in order to pick further skills of that level.
So, let me know what you think of my suggestions, or give voice if you have a general oppinion about the current skill system or other suggestions for improving it.
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What will happen now?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 25, 2011 09:02 PM |
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I liked the old one  Because of the controllable randomness. It required you to have strategy regarding which skills to choose. You didnt want to open too many paths in order to increase chances of getting certain skills. It was fun.
Improvement probably should not allow to pick all best spells/skills every time no problem (and be more random if its up to me).
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 25, 2011 09:09 PM |
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I'm all for this suggestion.
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evinin
Supreme Hero
Servant of Asha
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posted October 25, 2011 09:09 PM |
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I actually like this skill system. It allows heroes to become very strong, a little bit like in Heroes IV. There is also strategy, I personally think carefully when choosing. There are a lot of useful abilities and sometimes, when you have to choose one of four, there is an option that you don't want any of those four (it has happened to me a lot of times). So I like the new system better, surely.
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PitLord
Known Hero
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posted October 25, 2011 09:12 PM |
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sounds good, furthermore i want to add that ubihole should remove the respecialize ability when you are reaching a reputation class. tactical aspects are smaller cause this because at the start i am always picking spells/skills which are really good in early-game (regen,pressed attack, bolt etc.) but suck in late game. after upgrade to reputation i can trade the good-for-early-skills for good-for-middle/late-skills
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 25, 2011 09:16 PM |
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Quote:
I liked the old one Because of the controllable randomness. It required you to have strategy regarding which skills to choose. You didnt want to open too many paths in order to increase chances of getting certain skills. It was fun.
Improvement probably should not allow to pick all best spells/skills every time no problem (and be more random if its up to me).
Well I fully agree with you, I myself would without a moment of doubt have gone for a H5 style skill system with the twist that you picked perks freely, but I don't really think that's an option - I think we can get them to modify the current skill system, but I highly doubt that they will ditch it all together, given that many fans like the fact that there is no randomness.
How would you make it so that you can't pick all the best skills every time (if chance is not an option) - by making only some schools available, or by making links between choices, so that choosing some skills exclude certain others?
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What will happen now?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 25, 2011 09:21 PM |
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To be honest i think that the way how they came up with the current one is this:
Ok lets make the hero spreadsheet for players that want to play just the fights with the made up army. Time passes by ... all other parts of the game are done, time to relese. Hey we didnt make the proper hero leveling mechanics! Oh whatever, just put the same one in there, they wont notice the difference.
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How would you make it so that you can't pick all the best skills every time (if chance is not an option) - by making only some schools available, or by making links between choices, so that choosing some skills exclude certain others?
Its actually somewhat implemented. Mages skills are better for mages and warriors skills are better for warriors. Much like the paths. The difference in power is very slight tho. I didnt notice it at first.
With no randomness there will almost always be a cookie cutter build. Only thing that could change it is to add some strong situational skills i guess.
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Gweret
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 25, 2011 09:25 PM |
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Quote:
For instance, in order to learn first level Light Magic spells, you'll need to learn Light Magic I first, and in order to learn second level Light Magic spells, you'll need to learn Light Magic II, etc. How this works for Might skills, I'll return to later.
Step back. You are really trying to make it look more like old skill system which, as I think, you prefer.
These skills you are talking about are, were most of the time surplus. You must take them to progress with spells. Word "must".
I prefer word "free to".
Also I don't have "shopping" feeling, probably because of my RPG experience. In some RPG games skill system like in Heroes 6 is very common.
By their design you CAN'T limit access to might skills since many of them are old Heroes games "common skills".
They decided that only limit is:
Might, Magic, and Faction.
By that, I mean, the one can't change skill system the way you want. In order to change it like this you will have to throw it away and start from beginning.
In my opinion, current system is solid. It does not have many useless skills.
There are few problems with it.
First, it does not have many real trees, instead, there are some "shallow" ones.
However, I would not vote for stupid dependencies(which is what trees might introduce). Stupid means not logical. Also, I would vote against faction ULTIMATE abilities. It simply too overpowered. I mean, all attacks are LUCK? Give me a break.
The second problem, is current User Interface. It should be revamped to introduce more space, maybe fullscreen.
There are however some "not so powerful" abilities, like destiny or morale, is +7 to luck or to morale worth it? Catapult skills are problematic also.
Prime skills slots in User Interface are full. Which shows some design problems.
Probably "shallow trees" are effect of user interface design which, in my opinion, needs to be revamped to give a place for an extension.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 25, 2011 09:33 PM |
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Quote:
Step back. You are really trying to make it look more like old skill system which, as I think, you prefer.
Yeah, that was not something I was trying to sneak in through the back door. I was trying to find some middle ground between the two, if you want.
But obviously, if you like completely free skill picking, that makes your interests incompatible with mine, as my major objection with the new skill system is the completely free skill picking. That's not saying that either of us is more right than the other, both oppinions are perfectly valid, I just think some of the best things from the old game is missing with this new skill system.
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What will happen now?
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted October 25, 2011 09:39 PM |
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Edited by MrDragon at 21:40, 25 Oct 2011.
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My only complaint about the new skill system is that it is lacking many skills similar to HoMMV's more interesting perks like Corrupted Soil (or w/e it was called).
All those weird and wonderful perks... I miss them.
Most skills are a bit... well boring.
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 25, 2011 09:41 PM |
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Quote:
I actually like this skill system. It allows heroes to become very strong, a little bit like in Heroes IV. There is also strategy, I personally think carefully when choosing. There are a lot of useful abilities and sometimes, when you have to choose one of four, there is an option that you don't want any of those four (it has happened to me a lot of times). So I like the new system better, surely.
I must have missed what there was to think carefully with the current system ... other than the order in which you pick your skills 
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odium
Known Hero
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posted October 25, 2011 10:18 PM |
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I find the gameplay of Heroes 6 to be at the moment quite boring, and definitely the skill tree is part of the problem. I agree with Alci that some redesign should occur if they want multiplayer to have a chance.
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted October 26, 2011 12:01 AM |
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Edited by SKPRIMUS at 00:14, 26 Oct 2011.
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I liked the H5 system too. BUT, if the perks were chosen freely there, it would still be similar gameplay to me, because in majority of cases, I know how to level up to eventually get what I need.
Being able to freely pick skills is not an overwhelming problem. Even if skill choices are is a bit random, you'll eventually get to know which build to prefer anyway...just it will take less time playing to get to that stage of enlightenment.
Pre-requisites like learning main skill before further (sub)skills of that level don't really work in H6 system unless there was a complete re-design including levelling speed & # skill point added per level, because spells are now part of the skill system... & maybe some people complained about the pre-requisites in H5 so they got rid of it.
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...With no randomness there will almost always be a cookie cutter build...
I agree
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...because at the start i am always picking spells/skills which are really good in early-game (regen,pressed attack, bolt etc.) but suck in late game. after upgrade to reputation i can trade the good-for-early-skills for good-for-middle/late-skills...
yep that's what the designers wanted us to do, probably because people complained in H5 about early creeping with war-machines for might factions that were not so good later in game and also they wanted balance/equal opporunities for all during early, middle & late game periods.
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...Also, I would vote against faction ULTIMATE abilities. It simply too overpowered. I mean, all attacks are LUCK? Give me a break...
nah H5 ultimates are weaker than other better designed builds in most games which don't require one to reach max levels before reaching a winning position (eg. sylvan with no retribution & no enlightenment & no leadership for most of the game is sub-optimal). But that's outside the scope of this discussion.
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
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esvath
Known Hero
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posted October 26, 2011 02:48 AM |
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How about a faction-only skills in a (might or magic) category? For example, a Sanctuary-only water spell, or a Haven-only Realm skill etc? That will spice up the selection a bit, without forcing someone to pick something.
I also notice that picking a skill in a magic school is counted toward all magic school. So, to get Sunburst (tier 2 Light Magic), I don't have to invest something in Light Magic, but any skills in Magic will do. I think should be changed so that Sunburst requires several points spend in Light Magic.
Also, because spells are now skills, a hero should receive TWO skill points at level up (or at least, get +1 skill points for every two/three level ups). At present, a hero possess LESS skills and spells than previous versions, since in previous versions we do not have to spend anything to get spells (except relevant magic skills, of course).
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akaihane77
Hired Hero
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posted October 26, 2011 03:34 AM |
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I think they should at least make diff faction heroes more unique by having more special skills that only a single faction can take. Currently all the heroes share the same might skills and magic skills only differ by the selection of element type.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 26, 2011 07:48 AM |
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Pre-requisites like learning main skill before further (sub)skills of that level don't really work in H6 system unless there was a complete re-design including levelling speed & # skill point added per level, because spells are now part of the skill system... & maybe some people complained about the pre-requisites in H5 so they got rid of it.
No, I don't agree at all, this would directly transfer into the new spell system, because it would mean you have to pick Light Magic I in order to select any of the spells from that school. And yes, it would add restrictions, but it also prevents the "spell shopping" (one from this school, one from that, etc.) which I find flattens the game. Why even have schools, then, why not make it one big pool of spells?
And yes, it would require a re-design of the might skills, cf. the second part of my post.
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What will happen now?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted October 26, 2011 09:07 AM |
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As far as I'm concerned the new system currently suffers from the problem which was predicted from the moment of its announcement - it revolves around perfect templates. The skills are not balanced at all and due to the Mentor thing are artificially divided into "skills for primary hero" and "skills for secondary heroes" (yes, that's not written anywhere but it's more than implied). Thus the large amount of available choices is deceiving as no more than half of them are actually worth it.
Additionally, the lack of faction-specific skills, like in Heroes V, is a step back - this was one of the nice additions to the serios, if very imperfect at first. In my opinion each faction should have at least partially unique skill tree for each of the skill/spell "departments" it can have by default, excluding certain "general skills/spells" (for example - no Fireball for Stronghold, no Logistics for Necropolis, etc.) and including faction-specific ones (not necessarily compensating the missing ones).
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted October 26, 2011 09:43 AM |
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Edited by SKPRIMUS at 09:44, 26 Oct 2011.
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well somewhere along the line, there seemed to have been a strong push for no randomness & also as much balance between factions as possible throughout all phases of early, mid & late game => hence that's why I think every faction has same access to nearly everything...
[I'm not saying it's right or wrong way, could be lazy way...like why not take it even further & have no restrictions on magic schools that they have now]
maybe faction unique skill trees might come in an expansion when the designers think about it more in-depth? [unless too lazy ofc]
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@alcibiades, the reason why I wrote those words is that you'll have a hard time persuading people to have to take Light I when they don't have any light magic spells.
Your overall concept of grouping skills & then pre-requisites can work, but I still think a re-design is required like having more than 1 skill point per level up or changing sequence to
1st light spell -> Light I -> 2nd light spell -> Light II etc
& even maybe 2 light spells before needing next Light level in some cases.
In previous HoMMs, heroes already had spells before choosing magic skill & more magic spells were available once magic skill increased, now they don't even have any spells before choosing skill...
imo, it needs a lot more thought & tweaking of numbers to make Light I, II, III attractive enough to get to the best spells...if not, it will seem like needing to add extra skill points to reach the same hero effectiveness (hence the mention of re-design & levelling speed & # skill points per level)
and on spell shopping, yes I agree that the schools do not seem completely necessary,...I am neutral on this until I play the game a lot more & I don't know if it would impact the game one way or another if they were just one big pool vs now
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus
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esvath
Known Hero
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posted October 26, 2011 09:43 AM |
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AThe skills are not balanced at all and due to the Mentor thing are artificially divided into "skills for primary hero" and "skills for secondary heroes" (yes, that's not written anywhere but it's more than implied).
+1 on this!
Heck, even the way Blood/Tears alignment works only for main hero, the picture of first hero bigger than the rest, also scream this.
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Thus the large amount of available choices is deceiving as no more than half of them are actually worth it.
Hear, hear!
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Additionally, the lack of faction-specific skills, like in Heroes V, is a step back - this was one of the nice additions to the serios, if very imperfect at first. In my opinion each faction should have at least partially unique skill tree for each of the skill/spell "departments" it can have by default, excluding certain "general skills/spells" (for example - no Fireball for Stronghold, no Logistics for Necropolis, etc.) and including faction-specific ones (not necessarily compensating the missing ones).
No morale for Necropolis can be the start, imho 
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 26, 2011 09:58 AM |
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- In order to learn skills or spell from a school, you need first to take the "major" skill of appropriate level within this school.
For instance, in order to learn first level Light Magic spells, you'll need to learn Light Magic I first, and in order to learn second level Light Magic spells, you'll need to learn Light Magic II, etc. How this works for Might skills, I'll return to later.
it's like in H4, in order to learn high level spells, you had to invest a lots of levels into mastering the magic school. but the main difference is that in H4, you could actually learn a lot of spells.
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