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| Thread: Skill points distribution and faction diversity |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted October 28, 2011 10:39 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 22:46, 28 Oct 2011.
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Skill points distribution and faction diversity
This could be considered a sub-topic of alcibiades' "Heroes 6 skill system..." but it deals with a rather specific matter so I think it needs a separate discussion.
My personal opinion which you may or may not share is that the current leveling mechanism is rather bland and a bit too undeviating. 1 skill point per level does serve its purpose and it's not a mechanics that needs to exactly fixed - because it's not broken. The thing is that, with the absence of randomness, this could get boring pretty fast. So here are a few suggestions which could spice the things up without altering the system radically (and you can add your own if you think it's necessary):
Base
Instead of receiving 1 skill point per level, the hero receives more than 1 but the cost of the skills is also increased. This could be done in several ways, some of which could be very complex (and probably resulting in a balance mess) so I'll stick to the most elementary one, which more or less looks like this:
- When the hero levels up, he/she receives a fixed amount of skill points, for example 5, 10, 20, etc. The number is not really important as long as it conforms to the cost of the skills;
- The skills however have variable costs instead of fixed ones. Here's when it can get messy because nothing's really preventing setting a unique "price" for every skill. This however is hardly an option. So it'll be better to use as a base what the system is currently lacking the most, i.e. faction uniqueness;
- Given the above, the skill cost for each skill tree is re-adjusted in accordance with the faction using at least 1 main and 3 secondary modifiers - the main one being the type of the hero (Might or Magic) and the secondary ones being related to the faction's overall affinity. In essence this results in two different skill point sets for each faction. For convenience I'll use one for the examples below;
A) Each faction will be given a skill tree which it can master easier than the rest of the factions and respectively the cost of each skill in that tree is lower than the fixed amount of skill points received when the hero gains level. Ultimately this means that the hero will be able to pick a skill from that tree and save some of the skill points which he receives at level up at the same time so after 1/2/3/insert-number-here levels he/she'll be able to pick more than one skill at level up from that tree. For instance: Level 1 Necropolis Magic hero has Dark Magic affinity, he/she's given 10 skill points each level but the skills from that tree cost only 7 skill point for him/her - so if he/she picks skills only from that tree, he/she'll be able to pick one more skill from it on his/her 3rd level (3 x 10 = 30 while 3 x 7 = 21 + 7 = 28, i.e. 2 skill points remain in reserve even if he/she picks a second skill from that tree);
B) Each faction will be "neutral" towards some skill trees (most likely the vast majority of them), meaning that the cost of 1 skill from these trees will be equal to the amount of skill points given each level;
C) Each faction will be "intolerant" (couldn't find better word, sorry) towards specific skill trees that it has access to (i.e. not skill trees which are locked for it, for example Light Magic for Inferno), probably not more than 1-2 in total, meaning that the cost of each skill from these trees will be greater than the amount of skill points given at level up. For example, Haven will have difficulties learning Fire Magic, so if the hero receives 10 spell points per level, the skills from that tree will cost 13 skill points, i.e. the hero won't be able to "buy" one of them with just one level's worth of skill points;
- The main difference between the Might and the Magic hero of each faction will be that the Might hero will specialize is some Might tree while the Magic hero will specialize respectively in a Magic tree.
- The skills from the tree which is some faction's "specialty" will not be as cheap for any other faction as they are for the "specializing" faction. The point is to add a little diversity between the factions using the already available material. The "bad" skill trees however could overlap for certain factions, for example Inferno and Stronghold could both have difficulties with Water Magic.
This is the basic version. It could be further "spiced up" though.
Improved version
Apart from the above, each faction (or more precisely, the respective hero type from the given faction) will not only "buy" the skills from its preferred skill tree cheaper than the others, but it will also use them more effectively. This would mean a static bonus to the effectiveness of all skills in that tree for each level gained after the first one. For example - Sanctuary Magic hero specializes in Water Magic and not only "buys" Water spells cheaper but also gets +2% to their effectiveness for each level he/she gains. This will make a certain skill tree the "trade mark" of the respective faction.
Moreover, the Blood/Tear reputation could be exploited in a similar manner. The skills from the respective reputation are already receiving a boost when the hero chooses his path but this could be further enhanced in two ways:
- All Blood skills throughout the trees can become "cheaper" when the hero chooses the Blood path, making at the same time all Tears skills more expensive and vice versa;
- The Blood/Tears skills in the preferred skill tree for the respective faction and hero type get a greater bonus when the hero selects his/her path. Using the Sanctuary example, the bonus changes from 2% to 5% per level for the respective Water spells/skills (the bonus for the skills from the opposite alignment from the same tree could either remain the same or be negated).
Overly-improved version 
This is actually a combination of the above with a little twist. Each hero type from each faction is again predisposed toward one skill tree, stays neutral toward the majority and doesn't like one or two trees. For the purpose of greater diversity, the first category - i.e. the "favored" skill tree - could be broadened. So, each hero type from each faction will have one skill tree in which the said type will specialize, i.e. will "buy" the skills cheaper AND will get a bonus for each level like explained above, but will also have access to a secondary skill tree which is easier to learn than the "neutral" trees but does not offer bonuses to the efficiency of the skills belonging to it. For example: Inferno Magic hero specializes in Fire Magic, so this is the tree where he/she "buys" the spells/skills cheap AND gets additional bonus to their efficiency, but he/she has a soft spot for the Prime school as well, being a sprout of Urgash and so on. So the Prime spells/skills will cost as much as the Fire spells/skills (or will be just a little more expensive but still cheaper than the skills from the "neutral" trees) but will not be more effective than usual.
This allows for greater flexibility. Each hero type from each faction will have easier access to two skill trees but will gain more benefits from one of them. At the same time the hero remains largely unrestricted to pick skills from the other trees but obviously they will cost more and won't offer the bonuses of the "favored" tree.
The point of the whole exercise is twofold - to make the system more "colourful" as a whole and to add additional consideration to the skill selection. More choices could emerge - to "buy" a "cheap" skill now and two more "cheap" skills on the next level or to conserve the skill points and to buy an "expensive" one from some of the "difficult" trees which however could have something very valuable for the current situation. To develop the faction's "favored" tree(s) completely (which by the way could offer some ultimate bonus, just to make it even more complex ) or to make a Jack of all trades hero. And so on.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 28, 2011 10:52 PM |
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I don't have time to read it all now, but I saw your idea on the basic version in the other thread and really liked it.  Will look more into this tomorrow.
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What will happen now?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 29, 2011 01:00 AM |
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I don't think we need a MASSIVE overhaul of the system.
All we need is to nerf the OP skills, buff the underpowered skills, recategorize a number of skills and create some kind of restriction to prevent people from just picking up the most OP skills in every single tree.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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esvath
Known Hero
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posted October 29, 2011 08:02 AM |
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Great idea
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted October 29, 2011 08:50 AM |
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Edited by B0rsuk at 09:08, 29 Oct 2011.
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Restrictions are not needed if there are no OP skills. If Heroes6 ends up having few cookie cutter builds (e.g. hands down the best Haven vs Inferno build), then I say it's a deeper problem. It only highlights that Heroes 6 doesn't need diverse skills.
Previous proposal by Alcibiades sounded like he wanted to force skill diversity by throwing obstacles at player's feet. He will want X, Y and Z so let's make it harder. I would start from another side - make more skills desirable. More carrots, not more sticks.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 29, 2011 09:56 AM |
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Quote:
Restrictions are not needed if there are no OP skills. If Heroes6 ends up having few cookie cutter builds (e.g. hands down the best Haven vs Inferno build), then I say it's a deeper problem. It only highlights that Heroes 6 doesn't need diverse skills.
There will never be such a thing as complete balance. It's simply not possible, people will always find exploits, and once they've found them, they'll use them. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, mind you.
I think a problem people miss when they talk about the cookie-cutter build thing is that while there might not be a single skill build that all people use, there's a high risk of each person finding his (or her) ideal skill build, and then sticking to that every time, which flattens the game.
Quote:
Previous proposal by Alcibiades sounded like he wanted to force skill diversity by throwing obstacles at player's feet. He will want X, Y and Z so let's make it harder. I would start from another side - make more skills desirable. More carrots, not more sticks.
No, it's not that I necessarily think that I want to add restrictions, but it seems lame that you can use a single skill point in one magic school and then cast the spell with same effectivity as one who has used many points there. And for all the qualities of Heroes 1 and 2, their skill systems were not the best of the series, and one of the defining features ever since is that you have to raise your level of magic in order to get the full effect of the spell. That's no longer the case, and that for me is a huge loss for the game. There are times where less is more, but this is not one of them.
Also, about the Might skills, why are there even schools (Paragon, Realm, etc.)? It doesn't matter what school a skill is, they might as well have made one grand Might skill pool instead of some random partition has no real use. Which was why I suggested to make a real "school" destinction for the Might skills also, which would actually have an effect in the game.
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What will happen now?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 29, 2011 10:24 AM |
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To return to the original topic, I really like the idea of having a slightly different skill point cost between the schools and between the factions. However, I think the difference should be too big (I'll return to why later) - something like 3 SP (skill points) for a 'neutral' class, 2 SP for a 'favored' class, an 4 SP for a 'disfavored' class would seem fine. Default gain on level up would be 3 SP, this would work because picking a favored skill on one level-up would save you 1 SP, so that you on next level could pick either two favored skills or one disfavored skill (or just one neutral one, carying over your saved-up skill point).
However, I think there's a careful balance between favoring some skills on one side, and on the other side making some skills so attractive (and other so un-attractive) that you'll always make the same picks. This is also why I would be careful about adding (additional) racial bonuses for certain skills, because it effectively could mean that only certain builds are attractive.
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lichking012
Known Hero
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posted October 29, 2011 11:53 AM |
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Why should we limit abilities that are viable for factions? Making some skills undesirable only makes them LESS likely to be picked, I don't see how pinholing people down paths where they have less viable options is desirable. I feel like this only encourages templates more by getting rid of rather unorthodox combinations. This is generally why I am against "faction unique skills", having these skills available to everyone creates more options than only giving one faction access to a skill
As for variations between factions,different stat distributions, faction abilities, path abilities, and your army already shape how you develop skills anyways.
Personally I feel like skill point distribution, is a bit on the low side with spells in the mix, not TERRIBLY low, but it would be nice to get an extra point every 3 levels or so.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 29, 2011 12:36 PM |
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I think to accept that at a certain level, there are two opposing interests in play here: On one hand we have the wish for freedom, on the other hand we have the wish for variation. And I don't mean this like some people want one and others want the other, I think most of us want both, but to a certain level, the two exclude each other, so we have to find the right balance point.
Let me try to clarify: The game imposes certain restrictions on us: We choose a faction, which defines our possible hero classes and our possible creatures for our army. Obviously, if one wanted to go completely "freedom" here, all factions would have access to all hero classes and all creatures, but that would eliminate the whole concept of factions, effectively meaning there was only one joined faction: Variation goes down the drain.
If we transfer this image to the skill system, you will notice that there are currently certain restrictions in the magic schools: Haven can't learn Dark Magic, Inferno can't learn Light Magic. Less freedom, but more variation. On the Might skills, however, that is not the case: Everybody can learn all the same might skills. More freedom, yes, but less variation. If that is good depends on the eye of the viewer; I don't think it's good. After all, why even have might skill classes (Paragon, Realm, etc.) when there is no actual distinction?
Furthermore, I think adding a distinction between skill costs would not only emforce variation between classes (which I think is needed, and I see many people complaining that most classes play pretty much the same), it would also be a way to emphasize the lore of the game: Haven follow the Dragon of Light, isn't it only natural that they should favor learning spells from this school?
So yes, it does reduce your freedom, but I don't think that's a bad thing - not to this extent. My oppinion is that so far, one the balance between the Freedom and the Variation, the skill system favors Freedom too much, hence I wouldn't mind having some restrictions that would promote variation between the classes. But like I also emphasized above, the changes should not be so dire as to make only one path desirable.
On a sidenote, I think this opens up for a number of interesting twists:
- Higher level skills could cost more SP (for instance, a Cleric might buy a level 1 Light Magic at 2 SP, while a level 2 spell costs 3 SP and a level 3 spell 4 SP) which coupled with a growth in the number of SP you gain as your levels proceed could make some interesting dynamics where you have to choose whether you want a single high level skill or multiple low level skills instead.
- Certain skills could reduce the cost of aquiring skills within a school (for instance, Light Magic I, II and III could give a discount on buying Light Magic spells, thus emphasizing the potential of specializing).
- Bonus skill points could be acquired from map locations, without skewing balance completely (earning 1 SP doesn't mean a new skill, but will be valuable to carry over to next level-up).
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 29, 2011 02:35 PM |
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What if all the (boring) skills such as Light Mastery I, II and III were removed and instead, you got like +4 Light Magic Power for each point in Light Magic you spent?
With the Might skills, you could just balance and recategorize them.
I don't think remaking the entire skill system is realistic and something they would do. That's for H7.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted October 29, 2011 03:02 PM |
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Edited by yasmiel at 15:11, 29 Oct 2011.
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I don't like being the "I told you so" guy but I feel all this could have been prevented if boards were a bit more careful when learning about how system will work.
Refering to my relatively old post
Quote:
posted by yasmiel (Supreme Hero) at 19:09, 19 Feb 2011
Yes, most of it is true which kinda brings me back to my original point (my bad if i did not "tell" it well, english isn't my native after all).
Issue here is not will classes/advanced classes be viable, I'm sure most of them will. However I feel each of them will deviate to cookie cutter build - which in it's own merit, is ok and acceptable (more on this in last paragraph), but I'm not sure most people here realize the context of it.
Meta choice (class choice in heroes or spec choice in wow) functions well, but tree customization (layer below the meta choice) not as tightly related to that meta choice. (meaning every meta choice brings a tree with a same problem so picking different meta doesn't change the problem)
Heroes 5 had a choice of 8 really distinct play-styles (6 if we go by vanilla). I'm not sure the new system will match it, even though it has more options on paper. I'm afraid in H6 it will go down to 2 - whether i want to pick might or magic hero. Hopefully I will be proven wrong
Where it starts being a problem?
Starts when such system is advertised as huge upgrade over old one, when I feel it actually isn't big deal. Again, on its own it is ok, but cannot be used as viable replacement for quantity. I just haven't seen enough proof that the game will offer more variety and play value than the latest installment - since quantity was reduced, and on the other hand (as shown in this example of skills trees) improvement of choice (quality) is still to be seen.
Disclaimer:
Intent of this is not to spread pessimism (tho i know I sound like that . I really hope guys at BlackHole shut me up with a well made game.
Suffice to say it was unanimous forum call that I'm insane and that new system offers alot.
Any improvement over current one is welcome.
Back on topic, I do not believe anything short of total overhaul will cut it. And it is not going to happen. Ideas here would be a step in the right direction, but i feel the flaws of the system run much deeper.
Heck even blizzard recently waved goodbye to talent trees in it's classic form. Ubi/BH should learn from them.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 29, 2011 04:29 PM |
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Quote:
What if all the (boring) skills such as Light Mastery I, II and III were removed and instead, you got like +4 Light Magic Power for each point in Light Magic you spent?
Yes, remove all the passives from the game, youll be left with 30% of skills lulz. They are there for you to have an option to specialize in one school or to spread your spells over different cathegories, they are faction specific too since they boost magic damage dealers in certain factions.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 29, 2011 04:47 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
What if all the (boring) skills such as Light Mastery I, II and III were removed and instead, you got like +4 Light Magic Power for each point in Light Magic you spent?
Yes, remove all the passives from the game, youll be left with 30% of skills lulz. They are there for you to have an option to specialize in one school or to spread your spells over different cathegories, they are faction specific too since they boost magic damage dealers in certain factions.
Yeah, I don't think there's a problem with passive skills being in the game, but they need to be worth it, something like +3 Magic Power to one school is just too boring (I even seem to remember from the early beta that it was only +2 Magic Power, which made it a plain joke, because Arcane Exaltation in Prime gave the same bonus to all schools, but maybe my memory is wrong).
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What will happen now?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 29, 2011 05:02 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 17:04, 29 Oct 2011.
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I don't want to remove all passive skills, a lot of them do add some strategic value. What I meant was that I think all the "Light/Prime/Dark Mastery" skills should be removed, they're just boring.
My suggestion is to have a system where you for example get +3/4 Light Magic Power per Light skill. That encourage players to focus on one magic tree at a time. It should not be hard for the developers to do that, in fact, it could probably be easily modded.
With this system you would still be able to take 1-2 skills in every Magic tree, but those spells would be less efficent compared to the spell power of a hero that focused solely on Light and Water Magic.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 29, 2011 05:36 PM |
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How are they boring? Are the more boring than attack and defense form previous parts? Are they boring because you have to choose if you want to pick logistics or magic bonus? Or you too want your hero to start with all of them form the beginning of the game?
I agree that power of the skills should have comparable strength. +2 to one school was clearly underpowered. As it is right now luck and morale skills are too underpowered. Each of them gives +2, meaning you got +2% to deal extra 50% damage which results in estimated value of the skill=1% damage increase. You cant choose patch for them. Compare it to the attack skill with blood path->+3 attack , each attack point increases attack usually by about 3-4% that means 10% increase in damage for all creatures that use might. Even if only 1 creature uses might in your army(lol) that skill is better for blood patch users than luck/morale. If 6 creatures use it (barbs) this skill is about 60/7=8,5 TIMES better. Hope my calculations are good.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 29, 2011 05:53 PM |
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Yeah, I think +2 Might Power is boring too and if I had made the skill system, I would never have included a skill like that.
But right now, we're stuck with this system.
The point with my idea was not only to eliminate 90% of the boring Mastery skills in the Magic Trees, but also to encourage players to focus on one tree at a time.
Perhaps players could choose if they want to pick their favorite spells from every tree, or focus on 1-2 trees and get more efficent spells from them.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted October 29, 2011 06:10 PM |
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 29, 2011 06:12 PM |
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Obviously, its the same X
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 29, 2011 06:58 PM |
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Quote:
How are they boring? Are the more boring than attack and defense form previous parts? Are they boring because you have to choose if you want to pick logistics or magic bonus? Or you too want your hero to start with all of them form the beginning of the game?
Maybe "boring" is not the right word, but then again, perhaps it is. There's nothing wrong with a +X skill, in fact they can have great use and I think they should be there - in moderation. But my objection is that skills like Light Magic I/II/III ought to do more than just add more power with regard to those schools. There are so many obvious things those skills could do - apart from actually unlucking access to the spells, they could add extra effect like increasing mastery (but no, they took the easy way and ditched mastery as a feature), they could have affected mana cost, or they could have changed skill cost (if one went with Zenofex' suggestion), or other things.
So when the best you can come up with for your "defining" skill for each magic school is "add +2 Power", I think it shows a great lack of innovation.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 29, 2011 07:16 PM |
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I dont mind those skills as they are now. Of course more innovation, the better, if its balanced. Everything can be improved. I dont mind you guys inventing new system. I just see all the complaing and i wanted to point out that those skills dont differ that much from others and from skills from previous parts. I even agree with the idea that magic 1,2,3 should unlock certain tiers of spell. It would prevent people from going rampart and pick every best spell in the game.
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