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| Thread: Which is the best Champion creature? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted December 06, 2011 04:20 PM |
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if anything they are stronger, but there is fewer of them per faction then the might ones.
but it's even more interesting, as the power per se is perhaps on par with might units but magic def is not so easy to come by as might def, so they become more efficient, but on the other hand there is no way of buffing magic damage output whereas there are couple of spells that do so for might ones.
so there is some further balancing here, it's quite complicated and it's possible that they did overdid some like litches, but all in all it's fairly ok i guess.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted December 07, 2011 05:27 AM |
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Magic unit usually has higher damage/week compared to the might one, but it is also depends on the faction and opponent faction (example: sanctuary has the best magic defence, going magic againts them is not good)
But as stated above, they are usually minority, yet even a might unit often have magic based abilities, so imo might and magic is equal in this game.
Regarding champion units, i don't see any need for rebalancing.
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RollingWave
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 07, 2011 06:23 AM |
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yeah, at this point the only two unit that seems clearly wrong is probably Arch-Lich (way too hard hitting) and Breed Mother (way too light hitting for what little special ability it has). Cerebus is debatable I guess, Vampire / Skeleton / Goblin is on the weakside but not disastorously so at least.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted December 07, 2011 06:49 AM |
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Quote:
On a sidenote, did they actually intend to have Magic attacks being stronger than Might attacks? One would assume that the "Magic" unit were supposed to be weaker in combat, but from what I hear concerning Vestals, Glories, Liches, Spiders, etc., that seems to be far from the case?
Well might creatures are linked to the might stats of your hero and magic creatures to the magic stats, so might heroes have high might stats and magic heroes high magic stats. We all know this. The interesting thing is that there are predominantly more might type creatures in each faction with Naga having the least with 4 out of 7.
I like the Pit Lords the most.....
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted December 07, 2011 07:24 AM |
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Most magic-attacking units have high damage and low durability.
Breeders have an unfairly bad reputation. Their usefulness is just more passively incorporated, like with Spring Spirits. Whatever adjustment you might make should be fairly minor (No way in hell should they have full range) Any ranged is good ranged. They got good durability, proliferation, and the mana leech. They're a hard unit to take down as far as ranged units go, but ignoring them for too long could be a massive problem, especially if you gate in a second stack or if you already have a 2nd stack or more.
Pretty much any unit that isn't based around doing a lot of damage automatically seems to be deemed a poor unit.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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RollingWave
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 07, 2011 09:10 AM |
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Quote:
Most magic-attacking units have high damage and low durability.
Breeders have an unfairly bad reputation. Their usefulness is just more passively incorporated, like with Spring Spirits. Whatever adjustment you might make should be fairly minor (No way in hell should they have full range) Any ranged is good ranged. They got good durability, proliferation, and the mana leech. They're a hard unit to take down as far as ranged units go, but ignoring them for too long could be a massive problem, especially if you gate in a second stack or if you already have a 2nd stack or more.
Pretty much any unit that isn't based around doing a lot of damage automatically seems to be deemed a poor unit.
I disagree quite a bit here, first, we're talking about them sacrificing half thier damage, in realistic effect unless you get archery 3 or cast storm arrow on them 1 Breed Mother essentially do the same damage output as 1 Lilim(!!) at full range. it's A LOT of sacrifice, which means that they better have the best ability to make up for it, but do they?
Mana Leech is very situational, first it must be dealing against enemy heroes, second if the enemy hero have mana flowing out their nose + meditation or is a heavily might oriented hero with very little use of spells, then it doesn't harm them. The otherway around is also true, if your hero is totally might oriented then those extra mana don't do you much good, while if your already got a huge mana pool they don't do you much good either.
Meanwhile, Proliferation isn't a bad move at all of course, a free Reinforcement spell is never bad, but when your a Elite unit doing Core unit damage adding 20% to that isn't quite as helpful.
Meanwhile, Breed Mother is in reality only marginally more hardy than Arch-Lich, it is considerablly more hardy than Yuki-Onna and Centar, but one of them have Honor and the other one hits a ton with Rage and can it's manuver ability further up their damage potential.
IMHO they should change how Breeder's specials work considerablly, like having them being able to eat up spell effects on their targets (like Darkness Elementals) and/or from Friends (through spell like move) that would also give them positive bonus in some way. which would at least make it much more general purposed .
You notice I don't say that Mizu-Kami is crap, because it's ability do go well enough with their units, and their lineup as a whole at least ouside of siege situation is good, But Breed Mother brings almost nothing else to the Inferno lineup. so it either needs to bring damage or need to bring some more generally useful special ability.
My suggestion for Breed Mother would be changing their two skills to something like..
A. Mana Leech: Attacks will dispell ALL magic effect on the unit, including buff and defbuff, will do additional 3-5% damage per spell it removes. Also gives an spell ability to remove all buff / defbuff from a ally unit / self. (no longer drains mana from heroes or give mana to your own).
B. Proliferation: When you Leech spells from allies, you regen HP based on the various factor (the # of units your leeching from, their strength # of spells you leeched, etc.. probably should generally add up to something like a half decent cast of heal.) upgraded version can grow beyond original size (but won't remain after battle)
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 07, 2011 09:42 AM |
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Yeah, Breeders deserve all the hate they are getting. Worst shooter in the game after the Goblins and the easiest to block. Their mana leech isn't that great either, after the opponent hits 150 spells points it more or less ceases to be a threat. Elvin said that they've been given no melee penalty but it still seems that their damage is halved in hand-to-hand attacks.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted December 07, 2011 10:13 AM |
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And yet goblins are a good unit.
I believe liches need a debuff, so I won't compare any unit to them.
For a half-range attack a breeder mother will be doing 137.5% of the average damage of a full-damage Lilim, so it's certainly better than 1 for 1. Either way, yes, Lilim's are going to be outclassing breeder mothers on raw damage in creeping. That isn't the point. Some units are going to be doing most of the damage for creeping; that's just the way it is. Furies will be doing a lot more killing than maulers in creeping, but that doesn't mean maulers are a bad unit, it's just that they have a different function. Not every unit can shine in creeping, but the fact that breeders have a ranged attack at all means they're still going to be a welcome addition for it. They have an almost identical attack to a fire elemental.
Breeder Mothers have a production of 5/week compared to 4/week with Centaur Marauders and Yuki-Onnas. With Proliferation it effectively becomes 6/week. So on a unit to unit basis they don't need to be as good because you're going to be pushing 1 1/2 as many of them, even though if you compare them 1 to 1 they still have a little better tanking ability. Meaning you can have a fat, juicy, large sized stack of them that can consistently deal damage and drain mana (and mind you, if they can make a close-range shot, it hurts). Mana leech isn't as situational as you're claiming it to be. I can't see a might hero not making any use of their mana; that just sounds like a poor build. As for a magic hero, they're not going to have a virtually inexhaustible supply of mana sitting around unless they maybe visited a dragon nexus or are super high level and have a full prophet set or something. Campaign heroes get extremely high stats by map # 3 and 4, but a skirmish hero is going to be much weaker.
You give Breeder Mothers full range and they're going to be too strong. An archlich has an attack average of 20. A breeder mother an attack average of 16.5, and with proliferation that's effectively 19.8; almost the same as an archlich, while still having mana leech. It doesn't matter a whole lot that they're large because they're made to be beaten on. You want to propose a marginal damage increase or some other perk, fine. No way in hell am I supporting the idea of full range though.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 07, 2011 12:01 PM |
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Such calculations are not going to get you far. In a real game the Breeders get no more than 1 full damage shot and usually no more than 2 shots before they get blocked. Certain factions can block them before they can even shoot once (Stronghold for example). So no mana leech, no serious damage. On the other hand, their half-damage ranged attack is very weak. You can't compare them to the Centaurs at all, at full range 1 Centaur is worth about 2.5 Breeders and even though they are large creatures, they are not so easy to block, especially the upgraded version. In most games the Breeder's contribution to its army is marginal at best and maybe their only use is to be gated - but only with Gating IV, otherwise the gates stack will do negligible damage.
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RollingWave
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 07, 2011 12:15 PM |
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Aye, another major problem of Mana Leech right now is that you actually need to make a range attack to work, so again, unless it's a siege battle (where most people agree that Inferno's are pretty good anyway thanks to the fight allowing you to Gate enough stacks out to actually be relavant)
Also, a strange part I noticed in the stats is that their built in morale and luck is hideously low for some reason.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted December 07, 2011 12:34 PM |
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Mana Leech says that it drains anytime that the breeders deal damage.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted December 07, 2011 12:37 PM |
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Quote:
Mana Leech says that it drains anytime that the breeders deal damage.
important thing is how it works... and it works only on ranged, but this is fine as otherwise you would go dry no matter what, now you can at least block it... (and normal heroes can go dry quite quick)
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 07, 2011 12:55 PM |
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Quote:
Such calculations are not going to get you far. In a real game the Breeders get no more than 1 full damage shot and usually no more than 2 shots before they get blocked. Certain factions can block them before they can even shoot once (Stronghold for example)
in that case, full range will not help much
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted December 07, 2011 01:29 PM |
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Gay.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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x-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted December 07, 2011 04:56 PM |
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Quote:
Gay.
Sacred Kirin is the absolute H6 weapon. Prepare to have them abit nerfed for 1.2.
Anyway the other creatures are competitive.
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Lithium_111
Hired Hero
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posted December 07, 2011 06:09 PM |
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huh i thought the weaver and cyclops were damn overpowered ..
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted December 07, 2011 06:36 PM |
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Quote:
Sacred Kirin is the absolute H6 weapon. Prepare to have them abit nerfed for 1.2.
Anyway the other creatures are competitive.
Not really, he is equal to other champion creatures.
Though i wouldn't mind if his price is increased around the same as seraph or pit lord price.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted December 08, 2011 06:41 AM |
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In the duels, gating the pit lords instantly takes the cake.....
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 08, 2011 01:42 PM |
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So they are going to give Breeders full range. Wasn't that like the last ranged unit that didn't have full range? For some reason it seems to me that the problem was not Breeders having half range, but pretty much all other ranged units having full range. I found there was a good reason why range penalty got introduced since Heroes 2, but apparantly they forgot about that.
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What will happen now?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 08, 2011 01:50 PM |
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was in heroes 2 or not? I think not, I remember shooters being deadly even during sieges.
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