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| Thread: An internal conflict in two of the new features of Heroes 6? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 14, 2011 06:07 PM |
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An internal conflict in two of the new features of Heroes 6?
It seems to me that two of the new features or changes made to Heroes 6 are at conflict with each other. These are the new tier system and the new (reduced) ressource system:
1) The new tier system with 3 core units and 3 elite units supposedly should add a larger amount of synergy between the three units of the same tier, so that they act as a cohesive unit, supporting each other and covering the other units' weaknesses. On paper a great idea.
2) The ressource system was reduced to only one rare ressource. This was done in order to increase competition between players, as all players now need the same ressources, as well as the strategical element for the player, because he'll now have to consider how to use his ressources. Also an idea that makes sense if you like a competitive game.
Now the problem is that these two things seem to hold an inherant conflict. In order to experience the synergy between the units of the same tier, you need to have all of them in play. However, the stress on Crystal demand for all the different buildings means that it will be very hard to find ressources to build all three buildings, particularly on the elite level. This disrupts the synergy between the creatures, as you will rarely and only in late game be able to afford having all three units, hence experiencing the intended synergy.
What do you people think about this - is it a problem? And is there actually synergy between the sets of three units in Heroes 6, as was the original idea?
Certainly in some cases there are - the Haven core trio is an obvious example, and the Necropolis core trio also seems like a pretty good threesome (or do Ghouls actually play an important part?). However, other examples seem less succesfull - some elite sets for instance seem pretty random (Inferno and Haven elites for instance don't show any obvious synergy to me).
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What will happen now?
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted November 14, 2011 06:40 PM |
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Quote:
(Inferno and Haven elites for instance don't show any obvious synergy to me).
Heaven is quite random I agree, glories are just too good to pass up.
as for inferno, you can move in with your big guy, which will taunt all off of lacerator which can do some dmg if left alone in.
but on topic, i don't think it's huge problem, some maps won't let you afford everything, but some may let you afford at least some creatures, then you can select those that compliment each other better, but some units are so good that they compliment everything quite nicely 
also, the synergy is not always there, heaven and necro do have it but stronghold not so much, there is more synergy across different tiers sometimes i think.
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KingImp
Famous Hero
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posted November 14, 2011 06:45 PM |
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It wouldn't be so bad if every friggin resource didn't only have one of each. I swear, every time I pick up either wood, ore, or blood crystals, it's only 1 of each. What happened to random amounts ranging from 2 to 10 like in previous games?
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 14, 2011 06:50 PM |
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It wouldn't be so bad if every friggin resource didn't only have one of each. I swear, every time I pick up either wood, ore, or blood crystals, it's only 1 of each. What happened to random amounts ranging from 2 to 10 like in previous games?
Are we playing the same game? I come across random amounts of them  Even 4 crystals at one pile sometimes.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 14, 2011 07:33 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 19:35, 14 Nov 2011.
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Are we playing the same game? I come across random amounts of them Even 4 crystals at one pile sometimes.
Although it's possible, I think there's some sort of setting that makes these stacks larger. Normally, however, I tend to pick up +1 of the resource. Coming from games where the minimum is +2, that's ... meager.
The most annoying thing is that Crystal seems to be arbitrarily scarce. And even Wood and Ore are, at times, even though Gold doesn't seem to be as much of an issue. Whenever my secondary Heroes level up, I get them to Economist III, so they provide me with +1 Wood and Ore each turn. At least that covers that shortage, but Crystal isn't done as easily.
Whenever I finish a map, I tend to browse through my statistics to see if I slipped up somewhere. Usually I find that I got half or more of my Crystals from market exchange (simple to determine by deducting your Crystal income from your expenditure), buying it with any of the other three resources, which I end up having in abundance relative to Crystal.
To me, that reeks of poor balancing. Of course, this is map-related and not game-related, as it's up to the map designer to provide the resources needed to play though it. But when more than half is coming from your market, across multiple games? That's some serious Crystal starvation issues that may lay deeper in the game design.
Also, what happened to the issue of getting a Sawmill and Ore Pit for every town? I sometimes come across maps where you may be happy to have 2 or 3 of each, while having a lot more Towns than that. I'm not even beginning about the amount of Crystal Mines, which often seem a rare commodity.
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted November 14, 2011 07:34 PM |
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I think those 2 features are different things:
I don't even think about synergy to be honest, just get as many of the most useful units that one can. [I thought originally a combined pool for cores would have been laughable eg. out of 100 cores, I choose 70 xbows, 20 sisters, 10 sentinels] You could say there's synergy in H5 too [eg. anything with shield allies, spellcasters, chieftains/centaurs]
I just thought of something...there's less units that actually casts spells (other than healing)?
The one rare resource feels similar to previous heroes where that one rare resource is the most needed one. (eg. similar feeling as H5 haven with only crystals in the H5 game & removing merc/sulf/gem from game - less thinking/planning about how to get all the mines for the other rare resources)...ofc I think H6 could have been done keeping all 4 rare resources without imbalancing maps etc, but I won't go into that here.
Wood & ore are now just virtually identical in need too (no more H5 Sylvan needs more wood)...so much so that you could really remove one of them too
yep, heaps of piles of just 1 wood or 1 ore or 1 crystal...that's ubi maps for ya...pity not many maps yet & nothing like dragon utopia or something similar.
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 14, 2011 09:07 PM |
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Well the OP is implying that having sets of creatures (core and elite and then a champion) is inherently worse than having 7 distinct tiers. I don't see why, as the difference between the two is completely arbitrary. About unit synergy, I don't see any units that are particularly dependent on other units. Sisters are a good creature unto themselves. I see it more as having a 3 distinct core creature types in each faction: a heavy melee creature, a ranged creature, and a specialist creature. That seems to be more-or-less the case across all factions except for Inferno, which is given two heavy melee creatures. Maybe the game could be tinkered with some to promote more synergy - if that is what is desired - but I don't feel there needs to be any justification whatsoever for them to have changed to the current model of cores/elites/champion. Thematically, I've been loving the idea of having groups of 3 creatures that are "different but equal" as opposed to the structured hierarchy in previous games.
The only real difference between having blood crystals vs. 4 different rare resources is that it makes any particular match less luck-based, where you may or may not be getting the resources that you want early game. I don't have much of a preference between each model, but what I do like about the current game is precisely that getting rare resources, even wood and stone sometimes, seems to be more difficult to come by than in previous games, where in the late game you're just sitting around with boatloads of random resources that either sit there worthlessly and accumulate, or you trade them off for ****loads of cash. I didn't mind it at the time, but in retrospect it was a pretty poor model, as resources oftentimes became obsolete a few months into the game because you already had everything you could possibly ever need. I like it that you're now more pressured to get resources through creeping and trading even in the later stages of the game.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted November 14, 2011 09:09 PM |
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I disagree with the OP. I think the tier method was done primarily to have less of a variance in strength of creatures.
The resources are great in this game. I was skeptical at first, but for the first time EVER I played a long competitive multiplayer map where I was always starving for more resources. Even in month 3 I felt desparately in need of more resources. Never before have I fought over mines as much as I do in Heroes 6.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 14, 2011 09:17 PM |
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I sort of like simplified resources. Sure, it makes the maps less rich and fun, but on the other hand, it reduces the issue of certain resources being useless to the player. Then again, I think I'd prefer one resource more, something like Mithril from WoG, that would be used only for things like Champions' building. Would add some diversity and allow people to focus on desired units without gimping its core tier.
The point is to make all resources interesting for all factions, so map control doesn't have "dead zones" consisting of resources that aren't useful at all.
As for the tiers, well, to be honest I do like that change too, albeit I'd really love one more unit per tier. It's not that it would be hard, seeing how many creatures we can add on the spot to each town.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 14, 2011 09:36 PM |
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Quote:
Well the OP is implying that having sets of creatures (core and elite and then a champion) is inherently worse than having 7 distinct tiers. I don't see why, as the difference between the two is completely arbitrary.
No, you get me completely wrong. Actually, I was all for the new system, at least at it was originally intended: 3 units that do synergy for each other. Like the Markman that are offensive but very fragile by themselves, the Sentinels who's job it is to protect the Marksmen, and the Sisters, who's job it is to support the other too. Sure, there are a few bad things in the excecution - like the Sisters being WAY too strong offensively courtesy of their poorly balanced Pacify ability, and the Sentinels being enough just in stacks of 1 - but I liked the idea of having the creatures constructed so one of them wouldn't work (optimally at least) without the others present.
I think this was one of the very few changes done to the game that I could actually see had a point and added something that the old system did not have - where you would just skip whatever units you didn't really need. And for that very reason, I'm particularly dissapointed to see that they didn't really carry it through very well, and that the new ressource system - which I loathe for other reasons - could get in way for it.
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What will happen now?
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 14, 2011 10:26 PM |
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Although it's possible, I think there's some sort of setting that makes these stacks larger. Normally, however, I tend to pick up +1 of the resource. Coming from games where the minimum is +2, that's ... meager.
There are actually small, medium and big piles of all 4 resources.
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odium
Known Hero
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posted November 14, 2011 11:01 PM |
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Edited by odium at 23:02, 14 Nov 2011.
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I believe that although reducing the number of tiers from 7 to 3 was marketed as providing more "synergy" between units, in reality the major benefit you gain is easier balancing since now one should have marginal differences between the usefulness of the units. Occasionally, and this is most visible in the heaven's case, if designed well you might have synergy between units. However, apart from a few cases I cannot say that I find too much synergy, at least at the levels it was marketed. For me, reducing the number of tiers is not a bad move, in fact it's one of the decisions I lean towards agreeing with.
Reducing the number of resources COULD be more strategical but is highly dependent on the map. I did not play H6 in multiplayer but looking at the principle behind the game it is not a game with lots of interactions between opponents. Similarly to H5, and in my opinion even more so, H6 multiplayer gameplay will have lots of creeping with one final fight between the main heroes of the players. I believe that this thing of "I will get your crystal mine for a few days so that you cannot build something" is in general wishful thinking in Ubisoft era Heroes games (don't want to speak about pre-Ubisoft era since I don't have the multiplayer experience). On the other hand, for some people (it is not my case), less resources means more monotonous gameplay. Having only one precious resource does not impact the game too much but I believe that in the end it does not bring a plus.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 14, 2011 11:20 PM |
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actually, H5 can be modded with the same goals, and probably provide even more possibilities.
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whiterider
Known Hero
death walks with me
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posted November 15, 2011 01:22 AM |
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My humble opinion on tiers is that they are designed in a wrong way ( I have played only the demo not the full game).
Core creatures in an army are usually the ones that come in large numbers, they have none to average abilities (tactical ones, not special abilities) - like shield, no range penalty, stun, bleed attack, counter abilities against specific creatures etc or even no ability at all but high damage or HP - all abilities from that class should have been "learnt" through war exercises and they depend on the weapon/armor class of the creature. The synergy in that tier should be found in tactics and usage in certain formations - but it only depends on large numbers and special weapons.
Veteran creatures, on other hand, should have the real synergy between them and they should help the core creatures survive. Special abilities are some healing spells or skills, fear, poison, area attacks, taunt, paralize. Veteran creatures are less in numbers but their skills are really needed and they could turn the favor of the battle on your side if used correctly. All magical, psychic, nature, summoning skills could fit in that category.
Champion creatures should have some kind of an aura or mass spell/attack, that can influence huge area.
At the moment we have all of this mixed inbetween the creature tiers, and this is the reason the core creatures look like universal ones - they have everything - numbers, special skills, special weapons, area attacks etc. And some veteran creatures don't have any significant skill or their skills help only themselves instead the whole army.
In few words, my idea is something like that: imagine a stronghold army with large numbers of orcs (melee), goblins (ranged) and harpies (semi ranged), few trolls and ogres and centaurs inbetween that provide tactical advantage through special abilities like stun, spells, charge or curse skills and a huge cyclops that radiates fear and its eye makes foes go berserk. Against an inferno army with imps that are fast and with no retaliation, some kind of a cambion/demoniac that is a heavy tank and a magog that shoots with fire balls. And they are supported by succubi that stun, cerberi that do area attacks (and prevent resurrection since these hounds prevent the souls to escape hell) and a summoner that calls more demons. And a champion unit that radiates the winds of hell which make all your demons fight with more vigor and strength every turn or infuse them with bloodlust giving a random friendly creature another attack.
We need a much more significant border between the tiers, not only the numbers for attack/defense/HP/dam. At the moment for me it seems random and all mixed up.
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted November 15, 2011 02:49 AM |
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I think they missed a wonderful opportunity with the tier system by getting rid of everything but crystal.
With three creatures to a tier, they could have easily made each creature within a tier dependent on a different rare resource. It would have allowed them to say, "How does this faction use this resource?" and create unit line-ups that were better integrated with the game as a whole.
For example, it would have been much more interesting if, for Haven, you had Mercury that was required for a healing unit, sulfur that was required for a ranged unit, and crystal/gems that were required for a melee or defensive unit. It's thematic, it makes sense, and it allows the tier to function as a collective group that doesn't step on its own toes.
I always thought gems were superfluous with crystals in the game (or vice versa), but without sulfur and mercury I question the purpose of requiring crystal for certain units.
Basing line-ups on the resource that's required for its dwelling would have also reduced some of the homogeneity that people complained about with regard to certain units; there would no longer be a unit that was essentially a light or water elemental with different colors, because the developers would have started with the question, "How does Sanctuary use sulfur?" instead of "We need another unit to fill out the Elite tier. Anyone got any ideas?"
A missed opportunity, I say.
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hobogypsy
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 15, 2011 04:28 AM |
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white rider, your idea sounds amazing! I agree that is how the tier system should work, the cores seemed to get the majority of useful abilities. I understand they are supposed to be the "core" of your army and you should rely on them, but they are more of an elite core then a core core, if that makes any sense
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KingImp
Famous Hero
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posted November 15, 2011 05:03 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Although it's possible, I think there's some sort of setting that makes these stacks larger. Normally, however, I tend to pick up +1 of the resource. Coming from games where the minimum is +2, that's ... meager.
There are actually small, medium and big piles of all 4 resources.
If there are, I sure am not coming across them. I may get the occasional +2 of a resource, but most of the time it's always +1.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 15, 2011 08:15 AM |
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Quote:
I think they missed a wonderful opportunity with the tier system by getting rid of everything but crystal.
With three creatures to a tier, they could have easily made each creature within a tier dependent on a different rare resource. It would have allowed them to say, "How does this faction use this resource?" and create unit line-ups that were better integrated with the game as a whole.
For example, it would have been much more interesting if, for Haven, you had Mercury that was required for a healing unit, sulfur that was required for a ranged unit, and crystal/gems that were required for a melee or defensive unit. It's thematic, it makes sense, and it allows the tier to function as a collective group that doesn't step on its own toes.
I always thought gems were superfluous with crystals in the game (or vice versa), but without sulfur and mercury I question the purpose of requiring crystal for certain units.
Yes, this is exactly what I feel myself, they needed to have put things into a fixed structure - if synergy was indeed the thing they wanted. Something like:
Unit 1 = Offensive
Unit 2 = Defensive
Unit 3 = Special/support
And if they had tied a ressource to each of those - or they could have done with just two special ressources and the common ones - there would have been no competition within the tier. If they want all the "dragon" stuff, they could have went for:
Dragon tears: 
Dragon blood: 
And then tied the ressources up like:
Unit 1 = Defensive = mostly common ressources
Unit 2 = Offensive = Blood crystals
Unit 3 = Special/support = Tear crystals
Notice that there would still be good room for variation between the different roles - for instance, there is no rule on which of the units should be ranged or melee or flying. To give some examples:
Haven core:
Unit 1 = Sentinel = Melee defensive
Unit 2 = Marksman = Ranged offensive
Unit 3 = Sister = Supportive caster with much less melee abilities than currently (to make her truely a support creature) and buffs (I would remove resurrecting and pacifying abilities, move these to higher tiers)
Necropolis core:
Unit 1 = Skeleton = Ranged defensive, i.e. very low damage but slows down opponent
Unit 2 = Ghoul = Melee offensive
Unit 3 = Ghosts = Supportive
Inferno core:
Unit 1 = Maniac = Melee defensive, has taunt to draw away enemy attacks directed at hounds
Unit 2 = Hellhound = Melee offensive with high damage and no retaliation, but poor durability
Unit 3 = Succubi = Ranged supportive, can enthrall opponents
And yes, it could also work on elite level:
Haven elite:
Unit 1 = Griffin = Flying defensive, unlimited retaliation and does more damage on each retaliation
Unit 2 = Cavalry = Melee offensive, high damage but does only half damage when he's stationary, so only half damage on retaliation
Unit 3 = Glory = can blind enemies and no retaliation, but does very low damage, increases morale of nearby units
These are just some examples, but I think an actually synergy where at least most of the units play a role for each other IS possible.
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What will happen now?
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 15, 2011 08:36 AM |
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I like your idea about the two different crystals so that the game could have at least 4 resources: wood, ore, blood and tear crystals.
I think only the core units work in synergy with each other, not the elite, as Mike80D siad the tier method was done to have less variance in strength of creatures...applies to the difference between core and elite and champion...
With core creatures though I find sometimes that using 2 of the cores works well in synergy rather than 3 cores...eg. Sanctuary I like to use the priestesses as ranged offensive and supportive for the shark gaurds who rush up to enemy decreasing movement of enemy so that they never reach the priestesses. This works really well, but not sure how the kappa comes into this synergy....
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted November 15, 2011 09:36 AM |
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Quote:
Although it's possible, I think there's some sort of setting that makes these stacks larger. Normally, however, I tend to pick up +1 of the resource. Coming from games where the minimum is +2, that's ... meager.
The most annoying thing is that Crystal seems to be arbitrarily scarce. And even Wood and Ore are, at times, even though Gold doesn't seem to be as much of an issue. Whenever my secondary Heroes level up, I get them to Economist III, so they provide me with +1 Wood and Ore each turn. At least that covers that shortage, but Crystal isn't done as easily.
Whenever I finish a map, I tend to browse through my statistics to see if I slipped up somewhere. Usually I find that I got half or more of my Crystals from market exchange (simple to determine by deducting your Crystal income from your expenditure), buying it with any of the other three resources, which I end up having in abundance relative to Crystal.
To me, that reeks of poor balancing. Of course, this is map-related and not game-related, as it's up to the map designer to provide the resources needed to play though it. But when more than half is coming from your market, across multiple games? That's some serious Crystal starvation issues that may lay deeper in the game design.
Also, what happened to the issue of getting a Sawmill and Ore Pit for every town? I sometimes come across maps where you may be happy to have 2 or 3 of each, while having a lot more Towns than that. I'm not even beginning about the amount of Crystal Mines, which often seem a rare commodity.
This for me is en exaple of perfect balance. This is exctly how the game is suppose to work. This actually makes resources rare and valuable. This make Marketplace usefull. This gives you the Motive to fight for your mines. You want to build/recruit Large numbers of unites. Finde a way to get them, to feed them. Through trade, Through, batles, Through land. If you would create such maps like the BA from the Demo, where there are one mine of each for each Castle, and some additional for forts, The game would lose its economical part end would only end up as an "mass up, your army and on big final clash". And if you want such a game, and there is nothing bad about that, you have the Dual mode and the option to create your own Hero for this purpose. And it saves you time needed for the building part.
Some words about the Topic of resource diversity
Eventhou I see the benefits of the new economical system I like the idea that was presented by alcibiades. Two rare resources would be nice and could give some diversity, whitout creating the "Thing I do not need" situation, especialy if these resources would be usefull for all the factions in the same way.
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