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| Thread: Resource Requirements Balancing |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 13, 2012 08:09 PM |
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Every faction uses every resource in exactly the same way, and every resource is completely necessary for every faction, and every build requires every resource.
And how this is bad exactly lol?
The game includes the possibility to trade resources between teams. This is never ever used, because no resource is extraneous for any faction and no resource is more valuable to any other player than it is to you.
Other games in the series allow you to pursue different build trees. There is notably no way to include that in H6, because there aren't any other resource possibilities to make one upgrade situationally more valid than another.
Every build you could have uses the same resources and in the same way. So there is in fact an "optimal" build order. And despite having 3 trackable resources, there is no reason to ever deviate from that build order. That's pathetic.
Consider: in Starcraft you have Minerals and Gas. The two are used in different amounts for different buildings and troops. So depending on what kind of resources you have available, you may want to build different armies. And that's with two resources. In H6, there are three resources, but you still build exactly the same army all the time with no variation. Thereby missing 100% of the point of having trackable resources at all.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 13, 2012 08:19 PM |
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Every faction uses every resource in exactly the same way, and every resource is completely necessary for every faction, and every build requires every resource.
And how this is bad exactly lol?
It is bad, because it makes all buildings the same. There are no alternative options - like, I can do this and save some Crystal which will then allow me to do that later, or I can do something else and use the Crystal now, but that won't allow me to do the other thing later.
Now it is I can do this or I can do that, but no matter which I take, I won't be able to do anything afterwards, because I have to use my Crystal no matter what choice I make.
Don't get me wrong, both ways can work, and it's entirely a matter of taste which you prefer, like I also said above - but some of us, myself included, think this new system brings in a lot of "doing nothing" which stalls the game in a boring way once you run low on one of the ressources. I'm fully aware that others will like this, because it makes the game more competitive (you have to constantly expand in order to not run low), but that's not the way I like to play.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 13, 2012 08:21 PM |
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Not exactly. According to map design you could prioritize dwellings or core upgrades, champions or not, town portal / a unique building over another dwelling and so on. If anything you have a lot of freedom to plan according to whatever situation the game throws you in. Except unique buildings do not seem to hold a candle next to extra dwellings in the short term due to both requiring crystal. But otherwise..
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 13, 2012 09:27 PM |
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Just wow.
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The game includes the possibility to trade resources between teams. This is never ever used, because no resource is extraneous for any faction and no resource is more valuable to any other player than it is to you.
Other games in the series allow you to pursue different build trees. There is notably no way to include that in H6, because there aren't any other resource possibilities to make one upgrade situationally more valid than another.
Every build you could have uses the same resources and in the same way. So there is in fact an "optimal" build order. And despite having 3 trackable resources, there is no reason to ever deviate from that build order. That's pathetic.
Consider: in Starcraft you have Minerals and Gas. The two are used in different amounts for different buildings and troops. So depending on what kind of resources you have available, you may want to build different armies. And that's with two resources. In H6, there are three resources, but you still build exactly the same army all the time with no variation. Thereby missing 100% of the point of having trackable resources at all.
First paragraph. You dont trade between teammates not because it has no use. You dont trade between teammates because with no sim turns nobody right mind wont play with more than 2 people. Secondly , I can probably count my games of homm series that i played with more than 2 players on my fingers and I am playing homm since homm1, pretty much exclusively MP. I bfelive 90% of homm 6 players can tell you the same. That makes your point very important indeed.
Other parts allow me pursue different builds? U mean its "situationally" better to build a building if you can afford it when you get the mine defended by fortunate low strength unit? WOW You are trully clever! You think you got this other way round dude. In h6 you got more builds because you got more options what to build and therefore it requires more strategy. Before you was forced by lvl requirements and resource requirements to build certain buildings thus you did not have the choice which equals less decision making which makes the game less strategic. I simply wont comment any further on that because this shows your lack of understanding of basics.
Every build uses same resources mhm... in same way... mhm thats deep, really. SO there is an optimal build NOW i wonder how did you get that conclusion from your previous statement and what is this optimal build I am wondering too.
Yes you build units in starcraft depending on what resources you got available HAHAHAH OMG dude where did you come from , really?
Finally in earlier parts you were forced to get some units sooner then later and now you can choose which to build. Which is better? First option is more random because it depends on neutrals, second depends on players skills. For me it is neutral, although first would be probably more fun in the long run.
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It is bad, because it makes all buildings the same. There are no alternative options - like, I can do this and save some Crystal which will then allow me to do that later, or I can do something else and use the Crystal now, but that won't allow me to do the other thing later.
Now it is I can do this or I can do that, but no matter which I take, I won't be able to do anything afterwards, because I have to use my Crystal no matter what choice I make.
I have absolutely no idea what are you talking about. You want to use your crystal later, use it later lol? You want to use it now use it now. Later you will have additional heroes which act as a market places and will trade for it, thats what I always do. Are you saying that the fact that you were forced to store resources because you could not spend it( and selling was not viable, in fact me and my friend used to call it marketscam) till you finally build a mage guild or t7 creatures is something you like better? Maybe you do, but I dont see how this was better.
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think this new system brings in a lot of "doing nothing" which stalls the game in a boring way once you run low on one of the ressources.
Thats just plain wrong, I know you dont have the game so you probably dont know how this works. In h6 you get tons of gold and little resources. After a while your hero gets to lvl10 and then you can recruit lvl 5 heroes which can act as a marketplaces. This allows to trade your gold for the resources you need. THis mechanism makes sure you will NEVER have "doing nothing" period.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 13, 2012 10:06 PM |
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Other parts allow me pursue different builds? U mean its "situationally" better to build a building if you can afford it when you get the mine defended by fortunate low strength unit? WOW You are trully clever! You think you got this other way round dude. In h6 you got more builds because you got more options what to build and therefore it requires more strategy. Before you was forced by lvl requirements and resource requirements to build certain buildings thus you did not have the choice which equals less decision making which makes the game less strategic. I simply wont comment any further on that because this shows your lack of understanding of basics.
Please be civil. He may or he may not understand the basics of the way you play, but that seems to go very much both ways; clearly, you don't understand what it is that he - we - liked about the previous games.
I think that Hobo has a very valid point, namely that when Crystal is your only rare ressource, things will always evolve along the same pattern, because Crystal will always be the ressource you have, and the ressource you need. I know that randomness is somewhat close to an offensive word to you, but to some of us, randomness was what made replaying the game enjoyable. And yes, sometimes you were lucky with your creeps on one mine, or unlucky (read: Arcane Archers) with another, and then you had to rethink your possibilities. You may not like that, or think it truely tactics, but that doesn't mean that it isn't so, it's just another kind of tactics than the one you like.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 13, 2012 10:12 PM |
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I know that randomness is somewhat close to an offensive word to you, but to some of us, randomness was what made replaying the game enjoyable.
Maybe you should read my posts more carefully because I always am for randomness, never against, even in the post above....
I mentioned lucky neutrals not because I dont like the randomness. I wanted to ilustrate a situation when you are given certain resources and therefore you are able to build certain building and not able to build another. This situation, so common in earlier installments is very different the one we have now. Before you build what you could, now you build what you want, which adds more strategy to the game, as I described above.
So when hobo wrote it used to be situatianally better in earlier parts to build something I just could not stop laughing. Its was not better, you were not given a choice , you simply could do it when you had the resources or you couldnt, when you did not have them.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 13, 2012 10:25 PM |
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By the way, the statement about teams is wrong.
There are those towns that prioritize Ore and those that prioritize Wood. The difference is 50.
So teams - if compiled correctly -, WILL swap resources.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 13, 2012 10:31 PM |
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Maybe you should read my posts more carefully because I always am for randomness, never against, even in the post above....
Ok ... I simply don't see that from your post. I seem to recall you previously having spoken strongly against randomness in skill system, but I may confuse you with someone else. That was the reason for my post.
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Before you build what you could, now you build what you want, which adds more strategy to the game, as I described above.
More strategy, or just a different one? I'm not sure I agree with you. I didn't just build blindly in the old games. I set some targets, which made me prioritize some ressources, while others were more free. But if I had multiple targets, that could easily put restraints on all my ressources, particularly if I had to take into account building order and timing.
In the old system, sometimes there were still things to do, even if I was saving up one ressource for something. That was a good thing for me. For you it is not. That is fair game, we have our rights to disagree. But saying that one oppinion is right and the other is not is untrue.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 13, 2012 10:32 PM |
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I think that Hobo has a very valid point, namely that when Crystal is your only rare ressource, things will always evolve along the same pattern, because Crystal will always be the ressource you have, and the ressource you need.
Clearly, we dont understand each other if you are saying you like resources that you dont need better then those you need. 
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I seem to recall you previously having spoken strongly against randomness in skill system, but I may confuse you with someone else.
It must have been someone else. What I wrote about it is that I dont like current skill system being non random because of the reasons you mentioned above. I even made a joke that they made the one we have for the arena version and later on they forgot to add proper one so they used the arena version in regular game. And yes, it was not a joke really.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 13, 2012 10:46 PM |
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Before you build what you could, now you build what you want, which adds more strategy to the game, as I described above.
More strategy, or just a different one? I'm not sure I agree with you. I didn't just build blindly in the old games. I set some targets, which made me prioritize some ressources, while others were more free. But if I had multiple targets, that could easily put restraints on all my ressources, particularly if I had to take into account building order and timing.
In the old system, sometimes there were still things to do, even if I was saving up one ressource for something. That was a good thing for me. For you it is not. That is fair game, we have our rights to disagree. But saying that one oppinion is right and the other is not is untrue.
From theoretical standpoint more options give more strategies. In practice you always prefer certain combinations of units early on so this point is less valid. In the mid game; however, you have so many options in H6 that you had never before. You can build all basic elites first, you can build champions first, you can upgrade cores, you can build and upgrade one elite you can build unique buildings, you can build town portals, you can buy artifact merchant and trade artifacts. You simply did not have so many options before, so dont tell be about one strategy, or like hobo said , optimal. Before you always left upgrading for later. Now its viable to do it quickly because it increases the creature growth too.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 13, 2012 10:56 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 22:57, 13 Jan 2012.
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What you are talking about is the new tier system which could be perfectly well executed with 1 and 100 resources. To make it simple - imagine how much choice would you have with the old 7 tiers + additional buildings, each requiring some of the previous tiers or another dwelling to build. Even with just 1 resource, you're stuck with the prerequisites. I think it's high time to get the terminology clear, the game's not a few days old any more.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 13, 2012 11:01 PM |
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What you are talking about is the new tier system which could be perfectly well executed with 1 and 100 resources
And why do you think starcraft only has 2 resources? Because there is no point having more. Less resources would make the distinction between high tier and low tier more difficult. Having the need for same resources makes the game more fun because players need to compete for them. But i guess this was not suposed to be another thread about number of resources.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 13, 2012 11:06 PM |
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My bad on the thing with the randomness, then.
I guess perhaps we're talking a bit past each other, or use the same words in different meanings. You speak about tactics, what I speak about is probably more management. I liked the management aspect of the old ressource system which is not there anymore, or at least not to the same extent. It might be more tactical the new one, but I liked the old better.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 13, 2012 11:12 PM |
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Whether there is any point in having more resources in StarCraft is irrelevant to this discussion, the point is that, in Heroes, it can be made to work with any number of resources =/= 4 just as well as with the current 4 resources. Theoretically. The real question is how skilled are the designers. Other than that - it's a matter of personal preference and as you can see, the reduction of the amount of resources is far from universally accepted. Unlike StarCraft, Heroes has never had such a low number of resources and the best possible approach would have been to adapt the old 7 to the new tier system. The complaints would have been MUCH less than they are now at the very least.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 13, 2012 11:15 PM |
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Think what you are missing is that they cut out so many things from the game and they did not give anything in return which makes the game feel empty, even though some of those changes are for better. With so little randomness, no MP community, no map making community, there is little left to do in the game.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 13, 2012 11:33 PM |
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I'm definitely not missing any of these, currently the game has next to no MP playability because of most of them. I suppose that Ubisoft and Black Hole have a contract for no less than 2 expansions so most of these features will see the light of the day, eventually (except if they decide to make Heroes IV-style expansions). What I'm not sure is whether I'll be willing to pay them even one more penny just to get the game working on 100% with all the good features from the previous games.
Anyway, some on-topic lines. Looking at each tier of each faction, there's a notable cost differentiation between the creatures belonging to it. For example - Haven's Sentinels/Praetorians are the somewhat the cheapest Cores while the Sisters/Vestals are the most expensive ones. That's not bad when the creatures inside the given tier are balanced between themselves OR are working very well together but if some of them is notably inferior or superior to the others, it gets flawed. The Necropolis Lamasu is not on a par with the Lich and the Vampire - and the latter two bond very well among other things - and when they are in low numbers, they don't do much. They become more useful during the late game but you need them in good numbers which also involves upgrading the dwelling which you probably won't do before you get most of the other dwellings built and upgraded. So the bad balancing inside each tier could ruin the freedom of choice thing and the inappropriate dwelling cost could contribute quite a lot to this. This seems to be disregarded in the comments on the matter while it shouldn't be.
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odium
Known Hero
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posted January 13, 2012 11:45 PM |
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Totally agree with felunio on this one. I find myself among the people that like the new reduction of resources and while I can see the points of the people that oppose this change, I believe the feel of emptiness not to be so dependent on this particular choice.
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 14, 2012 12:09 AM |
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The lack of balance is a big issue, but while balance is currently atrocious, it's never going to be perfect. And that makes even resource use a problem. As long as everything costs the same resources, the choice of whether to take one thing or the other is simply a solvable problem. Whichever is better is the one you take. The one that is worse you take later if at all.
It crops up over and over again in Heroes VI. Every skill is available, so you just take the best skills and don't take the other ones. If different skills were better, you'd just take those ones instead. You don't adapt to the situation you're dealing with, because everything is a nail and you are allowed to select hammers rated "better" or "worse".
Because all the buildings cost the same resources, there are no map-specific tradeoffs. If, after careful analysis, you find that investing in Spring Spirits is a waste of time when you could have more Yuki Onna and Naga, then you just get the important stuff. In Every. Single. Game. It blows replayability out of the water. The thing you did to beat the game this time will always work, because it's not subject to shortages or differential incentives. Having achieved victory once, the game is solved. That's terribad.
The fact that the difference between a good troop and a poor one is so extremely marked and obvious certainly makes the problem bigger and more obvious. But it's inherent to the way costs are handled across the board. Honestly it wouldn't really matter if one thing was only slightly or even arguably better than another - the fact that the game does not do anything at all to push you out of your comfort zone means that you can just spam the same technique over and over again and it will always work.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 14, 2012 11:15 AM |
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I think, that this is just not true: in reality, what you can do and what not depends on the map: players have to find the best strategy for a given map, and that strategy is different for each different kind of map.
So my only gripe I have is actually with the way the maps are made, because the makers don't seem to have a good grasp on the system. Generally, on all maps there are NOT ENOUGH MINES and TOO MANY DWELLINGS/TOWNS.
In any given game on any given map your building strategy will be influenced by
a) mines
b) outside dwellings
c) towns for grab
a) While your heroes will move around, exploring anyway, the low number of mines and the high number of resource piles compared to that (which means, the high percentage of pile income versus mine income) not only makes SNATCH an extremely good skill. It also adds too big a random factor. One complete "set" of mines per town simply isn't enough to support town-building in a dependable, plannable way.
b) Outside dwellings of any kind move the balance between creature tiers. For example, as soon as you flag a Core dwelling, Cores - and of course their UPGRADES - become that much more interesting to build.
Conversely, an Elite dwelling favor building THEM over Champions (and Core upgrades).
c) Towns for grab are of course fun and generally good - but they are a strain on your economy as well. Add to that Homm VI's special force pool system, and it's clear that it makes sense to build up frontier towns in order to have access to full reinforcements (it makes sense to EITHER invest in the complete TP mechanics OR in building up all towns in the same way).
If you add in the possibility of conversions which cost resources as well, in my opinion there is a dysbalance between the amount of possible troop-producing entities on the map and mines or even big resource cashes (meaning, map objects giving a specific amount of a certain resource ONCE: 10 to 20 Wood, the same in Ore, half of that in Crystal).
This map configurations leads to an overproduction of "cheap" units - which are more than capable to handle every neutral challenge.
So in my opinion, resource costs are alright, but resource sources are too few or, alternatively, not upgradable. The possibility to upgrade mines so that they produce more would be welcome as well.
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 14, 2012 11:48 AM |
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a) While your heroes will move around, exploring anyway, the low number of mines and the high number of resource piles compared to that (which means, the high percentage of pile income versus mine income) not only makes SNATCH an extremely good skill. It also adds too big a random factor. One complete "set" of mines per town simply isn't enough to support town-building in a dependable, plannable way.
That may be true. But what happens when you don't have enough resources? You just don't build the next thing on your list until you do. There isn't a "what if I can't get enough crystal" army, because everything uses crystal.
Adaptation to the map is simply to grow slower, not to grow in a different direction. You're never ever going to buy Vampires instead of Liches because Liches are better and they cost the same resources in extremely similar amounts.
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