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| Thread: H6 Lore and Trivia *Spoilers!* |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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War-overlord
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posted October 01, 2012 09:31 PM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 02 Oct 2012. |
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Ok, I'm going to end this discussion using the Compendium. Which is, let us all face it, the be-all and end-all as far as the lore goes to date. So please, let us not post before I've editted this post with the facts from the Compendium.
Asha created the world together with her Children, the Elemental Gods. Each of which added their own Element to the World and took part in the shaping of it.
As a "Thank-you" to her Children, Asha created the Elder Races. One for each of her Children, so the Elder Races could worship their Parton. To give the Elder Races sentience and allow them to manipulate magic, Asha baptised the Elder Races in the Elemental Blood of their Patron. This way, the Elder Races carried a small bit of their Patron with them wherever they went.[Pages7-8]
During the Ancient Age, after the Wars of Creation, the Elder Races lived united and peacefully in one Empire, The Shantiri Empire. Here all Elemental Dragons and the Three Aspects of Asha were worshipped and all was well.
Untill the Angels decided amongst themselves that the Faceless needed to be punished for siding with their Patron-God Malassa, and therefor with the Demons, during the Wars of Creation. This is known as the Elder Wars. These Wars destroyed the Shantiri Empire, shattered the peace among the Elder Races and killed billions. In the aftermath of these wars, the nomadic Sea-Elves were seperated from their kin. The remainder of the Elves settled in what later would become Irollan. [Pages 11, 116]
Irollan, in it's early days is a confederacy of Minor Kingdoms, each ruled by it's own King or Queen. Elven Society is subdivided into castes, which span all Elven Kindoms, most prominent of which are the Druids, the Hunters and the Bladedancers. From among the minor Monarchs, a gathering of Druids appoints a High King/Queen in a holy conclave-like ritual. It is up to the minor monarchs to uphold the High King's Law in their Kindom.
High King Arniel decides to disband all Elven Kingdoms, in favor of one centralised Kingdom and strip the power of the minor monarchs and that of the Druids and making his own High Kingship hereditary. Many factions rebel against this. Most influential and succesfull of which being Tuidhana who seceeds from Irollan and makes her own Kingdom independant. All other rebellions are crushed. [Pages 110-118]
Sea Elves live in small familial clans, called Crews, on vessels of living trees. Sea Elves are fiercely loyal to their own Crew.[Page 116]
The Dark Elves are physically different from other Elves in that they have greatly enhanced vision in dark environs, but makes them equally sensitive to sunlight or other bright lights. Dark Elves can also hear the Whispers of the Shadow, which is a (near) constant telepathic whisper worshippers of Malassa and Creatures of Shadow can hear.
Dark Elf society is divided vertically and horizontally. The horizontal divide has to do with those who can bear the Whisper and those who cannot. Those who can bear the Whisper are able to use this as a scource of information and rise to power among the Dark Elves. Those who cannot bear the Whisper either magically shut it out, use drugs to shut it out or go insane. The vertical divide are the Dark Elf clans. Each Clans was lead by one of Tuidhana's Children, who gathered among them those who could and want to hear similar Whispers. The Nightshard clan search for information of passions and emotion amongst the Whispers. The Shadowbrand listen for secrets. The Soulscar listen for fears and insanity. There are several clans left unmentioned, though.[Pages 148-151]
In conclusion. Dark Elves physically differ from Sylvan and Sea Elves, who do not.
Asha created the Elder Races, the Elemental Dragons did not.
Both Dark and Sylvan Elves are a considerable faction in Ashan, Sea Elves are not numerous enough to be so.
Sea Elves are divided into Crews, Dark Elves into Clans and Sylvan Elves into Castes, who were so since the collapse of the Shantiri. There is no definitive answer to what Lake and Moonblade Elves are, but I surmise that they are either minor castes or subdivisions of castes of the Sylvan Elves.
Thank you for your patience.
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xerox
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posted October 01, 2012 10:33 PM |
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Which race(s) belonged to the Shantiri Empire?
I've always speculated that it was inhabitated by Rakshasa but they seem to be ordinary beastmen now. :/
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War-overlord
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posted October 01, 2012 10:37 PM |
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Quote:
Which race(s) belonged to the Shantiri Empire?
I've always speculated that it was inhabitated by Rakshasa but they seem to be ordinary beastmen now. :/
All Elder Races lived in the Shantiri Empire. So that means that Angels, Faceless, Naga, Dwarves, Elves and Humans lived there.
Rakshasa have indeed been retconned to be Beastmen now, though many of them are infused with minor Air-spirits.
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xerox
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posted October 01, 2012 10:42 PM |
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wow that's lame (both of them)
I was hoping for a HoMM game with a Shantiri faction but it seems like it's just a clusterfrack of all kinds of different races
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- John Stuart Mill
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Dave_Jame
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posted October 01, 2012 11:00 PM |
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Quote:
wow that's lame (both of them)
I was hoping for a HoMM game with a Shantiri faction but it seems like it's just a clusterfrack of all kinds of different races
Well that is basicaly the idea behind living in peace and united isnt it?
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xerox
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posted October 02, 2012 01:21 AM |
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peace and unity doesn't make fun video games
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GenyaArikado
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posted October 02, 2012 07:19 AM |
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Quote:
peace and unity doesn't make fun video games
The Sims?
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War-overlord
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posted October 02, 2012 11:22 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
wow that's lame (both of them)
I was hoping for a HoMM game with a Shantiri faction but it seems like it's just a clusterfrack of all kinds of different races
Well that is basicaly the idea behind living in peace and united isnt it?
Which is likely why they set it in Ancient Times Long Forgotten and have destroyed it. Basically, the Shantiri Empire is a Globe-spanning Ashanian Atlantis, complete with unimaginable and/or magical technology in comparison to which the current technology and magic of Ashan does not hold a candle to.
It now serves as a convenient plot-device, nothing more.
@GenyaArikado: The Sims are not fun, Xerox point still stands.
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Sandro400
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posted October 02, 2012 12:47 PM |
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Sea Elves are divided into Crews, Dark Elves into Clans and Sylvan Elves into Castes, who were so since the collapse of the Shantiri. There is no definitive answer to what Lake and Moonblade Elves are, but I surmise that they are either minor castes or subdivisions of castes of the Sylvan Elves.
Thank you for your patience.
Well, you just divided them by different criteria. Castes are based upon professional talents of people and their abilities, Clans are based on blood or some other relationship. I.e Sylvan Elves are divided into Castes and Dark Elves are divided into those who can bear the Whispers and those who can't. As it's said here (second answer) Sylvan Elves also have clans.
Thank you for your work.
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War-overlord
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posted October 02, 2012 01:08 PM |
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Quote:
Well, you just divided them by different criteria. Castes are based upon professional talents of people and their abilities, Clans are based on blood or some other relationship. I.e Sylvan Elves are divided into Castes and Dark Elves are divided into those who can bear the Whispers and those who can't. As it's said here (second answer) Sylvan Elves also have clans.
Thank you for your work.
This is the way the Compendium divides Elves. With the Sylvan Elves there is no talk of clans in the Compendium and there is specificly stated that Dark Elf Clans are not based on blood but rather what Whispers they listen to.
Also, as far as Castes are concerned, they are not like guilds. One does not choose a proffesion and join the association like one does a guild. A caste is something one is born into, one marries a member of the same cast, ones children become part of ones caste. Castes are an endogamic system.
Also, the link you give is old and as much subject to retconning as everything else.
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Sandro400
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posted October 02, 2012 02:14 PM |
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Quote:
This is the way the Compendium divides Elves. With the Sylvan Elves there is no talk of clans in the Compendium and there is specificly stated that Dark Elf Clans are not based on blood but rather what Whispers they listen to.
Also, as far as Castes are concerned, they are not like guilds. One does not choose a proffesion and join the association like one does a guild. A caste is something one is born into, one marries a member of the same cast, ones children become part of ones caste. Castes are an endogamic system.
Also, the link you give is old and as much subject to retconning as everything else.
Yeah, I said "on blood or some other relationship". In Dark Elf case, this relationship is type of whispers. The fact that Dark Elf clans not nessesarily are based on blood was known from H5 (Raelag becoming Clan Leader).
About Castes: I slightly changed it's meaning for Ashan. The basement is all the same profession (or more precisely place in society - Warrior/Priest etc), in our world on does really not chose a profession but is born as member of caste Does Compendium say that Elves are born as Hunter/Driud/etc? If that's so, my apologies.
Yeah, it could be retconned, but IMO Castes and Clans aren't incompatible.
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War-overlord
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posted October 02, 2012 02:53 PM |
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Castes and clans are indeed not incompatible, but there is no more talk of clans, only of castes. Which implicates that this has changed.
However, there is even little talk of Castes. It only say that Elf society is comprised of castes, of which the Druids, Hunters and Bladedancers are the most important. And of the special Caste of Rangers, which any Elf may join provided that they survive the training that the 3 important castes provide them. Extrapolating from that, I assume that movement between castes is limited.
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Sandro400
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posted October 02, 2012 03:16 PM |
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Quote:
Castes and clans are indeed not incompatible, but there is no more talk of clans, only of castes. Which implicates that this has changed.
However, there is even little talk of Castes. It only say that Elf society is comprised of castes, of which the Druids, Hunters and Bladedancers are the most important. And of the special Caste of Rangers, which any Elf may join provided that they survive the training that the 3 important castes provide them. Extrapolating from that, I assume that movement between castes is limited.
Hm, understood. Maybe that video Q&A will give answer to this question.
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War-overlord
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posted October 02, 2012 04:47 PM |
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Hm, understood. Maybe that video Q&A will give answer to this question.
Perhaps, though one would have to get this question to Erwan and Julien and that is assuming that they do not yet have a great pile of questions that already need answering.
On a different matter, I need to make a ratification of something I said earlier and be warned that this contains spoilers.
I had stated that Necromancer sealed a soul inside a body and then killed the person in question to turn him into a ghoul. There assuming that the victim is still alive.
Danse Macabre has shown that the victim of 'ghoulification' needen't be alive for this to be succesfull, but one can be undead as well. Seeing as how Sandro turns Merrikh into a Ghoul after defeating him to prevent Merrikh from hounding Sandro in the future.
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Avirosb
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posted October 02, 2012 05:50 PM |
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What's easier; releasing a spirit from its corpse prison,
or returning a spirit from the spirit world or whatever the afterlife is called?
Another question: Has regular animated skeletons been retconned out of existence?
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War-overlord
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posted October 02, 2012 06:40 PM |
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What's easier; releasing a spirit from its corpse prison,
or returning a spirit from the spirit world or whatever the afterlife is called?
Another question: Has regular animated skeletons been retconned out of existence?
Seeing as Necromancers only have power over souls that are removed from the cycle for whatever reason. The first, as the second is impossible.
What do you mean with regular animated Skeleton? A skeleton with no clothing or armour?
Well, one would assume that such class-room examples are rather hard to come by in the "wild".
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Avirosb
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posted October 02, 2012 06:50 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 18:51, 02 Oct 2012.
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Seeing as Necromancers only have power over souls that are removed from the cycle for whatever reason. The first, as the second is impossible.
I see.
Since you answered that question, I have another one:
Why didn't Sandro just kill Merrikh outright then?
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What do you mean with regular animated Skeleton? A skeleton with no clothing or armour?
Well derp  In my head, skeletons had been replaced by ghouls. Completely forgot about the skellies in H6...
Thanks for answering, by the way.
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War-overlord
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posted October 02, 2012 07:37 PM |
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I see.
Since you answered that question, I have another one:
Why didn't Sandro just kill Merrikh outright then?
One word: Mustach-twirllery. Spoilers ahead.
No it's a form of poetic justice. Merrikh has always hated Sandro and he's threatend to turn him into a Ghoul many times. After Sandro's expulsion from the Spider Cult, there was no need to keep up appearances anymore. So now when Merrikh crossed him again, Sandro could punish and humiliate him in the way he always threatened with.
Also, Spider Cultists consider Ghoulification a worse punishment than death.
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Avirosb
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posted October 02, 2012 08:03 PM |
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Okay, now I have too many questions regarding lich-to-ghoul transformations, how Sandro was able to trick the namtarus into drinking their venom, and why an otherwise levelheaded character would resort to petty revenge instead of killing off a potentially dangerous enemy,
but I figure that at this point I should just buy their book if I care that much.
Thank you for your answers.
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Avonu
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Embracing light and darkness
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posted October 02, 2012 08:18 PM |
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Edited by Avonu at 20:23, 02 Oct 2012.
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Or the most sacred of all misunderstandings.
LANGUAGE BARIER
Nope. I maybe didn't pay attention to Duel or Pirates presentation but for Erwan briefing for sure, as this question about who created mortal race was important to me and he said during briefing it were elemental dragons. Of course later, he was clueless about other lore questions and without Marzhin help, I don't think, Erwan would answer them.
So he could be wrong about mortal race too... or maybe wasn't.
We will know the true eventually.
Quote:
Irollan, in it's early days is a confederacy of Minor Kingdoms, each ruled by it's own King or Queen. Elven Society is subdivided into castes, which span all Elven Kindoms, most prominent of which are the Druids, the Hunters and the Bladedancers. From among the minor Monarchs, a gathering of Druids appoints a High King/Queen in a holy conclave-like ritual. It is up to the minor monarchs to uphold the High King's Law in their Kindom.
High King Arniel decides to disband all Elven Kingdoms, in favor of one centralised Kingdom and strip the power of the minor monarchs and that of the Druids and making his own High Kingship hereditary. Many factions rebel against this. Most influential and succesfull of which being Tuidhana who seceeds from Irollan and makes her own Kingdom independant. All other rebellions are crushed.
No words about clans but there is also no words that clans didn't exist... as you already pointed.
I don't know if I remember this correctly and where I read that (if any) but there was another clan mentioned besides Moonblades - Wind Dancers' one... but I can't now find any text about it and I really don't know if that was Elves or even it was about Ashan.
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All Elder Races lived in the Shantiri Empire. So that means that Angels, Faceless, Naga, Dwarves, Elves and Humans lived there.
From HVI it seems that both Faceless and Angels didn't leave in Shantiri Empire. Angels lived in their skycities (which many fell on Ashan during wars with demons and later durin Elder Wars), when Faceless lived under Ashan surface (in "Abyss") in their temples.
Shantiri worshipped all elemental dragons but according to Dance Macabre it was human who was High Priest of Malassa temple. Of course this doesn't mean, there were no Angels or Faceless in Shantiri at all.
Also, there was mentioned few times that Shantiri was caught between Angels and Faceless war and destroyed in process (Compednium indicated that was because powerful magic used by Angels and Faceless against themselves).
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Basically, the Shantiri Empire is a Globe-spanning Ashanian Atlantis
Maybe not globe-spanning as it was located on Southern shores of Thallan and on many islands on Jade Ocean (ruins in Heresh are from Shantiri Empire). If I understood correctly, only Heresh and maybe Seven Cities (and Naga Islands of course) are located on lands of former Shantiri Empire. Holy Empire and others kingdoms are beyond former Shantiri sphere of influence.
Now few words about Ashan - as you maybe remember, it was created by Jeff Spock. But he left HVI team some time ago and now lore is not at his hands, but rather in hands of Marzhin and Erwan (who also was world coordinator for Ashan from begining). You can see that some thing from original story and "bible" are changing (like creation of Beastmen or introducing Marzhin's theories about connections between NWC universe and Ashan in Danse Macabre ending - I wonder if they became canon some day). IMO Compendium seems to be based on original "bible" but with some updates. And as you can see, not all information was given in it for readers and probably will change in future.
Now I have few more questions:
1. Beasmen were created ca. 370 YSS but as we know Sharkmen and Mermaids were created later (512 YSS). There was explenaton, that not all Beastmen were created at the same time and it's OKfor me. Is there some kind of list in Compendium, which explain what kind of Beastmen were created at this or that year?
2. From what I saw, Ashan Compendium has only time-line from year 0 YSS, so there is no word about what really happened earlier, how Shantiri Empire was created after Wars of Creations and so on?
3. In chapters about dragons, is there a text about which one comes first etc.? Erwan said in which order they were hatched (as you maybe remember, Ylath is the youngest, even if each elemental dragons were hatched in pairs) but I am curious if it is the same order as in Compendium?
4. Also, I am curious about is there a text in Compendium about what race was doing after their creation?
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