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| Thread: Alternative Upgrade System |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 16, 2012 03:42 PM |
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Alternative Upgrade System
Truth is that most H5 players loved alternative upgrades and they did very much increase the game's replayability as well as helped reinvent the game. But it had flaws. First, balance wise: Some upgrades were simply better and picked 99% of the time. Then it was model-wise, with many being recycled models that looked like a copy paste of the original.
What I propose is that we do a mixture between the H4 and H5 system. Have some units with an alternative upgrade, some without and some with an option between two similar but different units, each having their own upgrade. H4 allowed you a choice between ogre magi and cyclopes which did not work at all, main reason was that they had a very different role in the battlefield. This could not possibly be balanced.
Here is an example of what I have in mind. Haven would be able to build either sentinels->praetorians OR swordsmen->crusaders with the first being defensively oriented and the second covering the offensive role yet both are melee and rather similar otherwise. Archers could have an alternative upgrade with marksmen having the line of attack and let's say longbowmen having a scattershot ability much like the basic H5 archer. Again, similar units but different usage not to mention how we need extra anti-turtling tactics. The rider's alternative upgrade could have a ride-by-attack much like the brisk raiders' wheeling attack as compensation for not being able to pass through units like sun crusaders can.
Necro's ghosts could be upgraded into either specters or wraiths, preferably with a ragged, skeletan appearance to change the design a bit. H6 necropolis looks way too pretty. Likewise we could use a skull-faced lich with a death cloud attack as they always were. Vampires could have a death knight alternative much like the clash of heroes unit, an armoured skeletal brute with a huge greataxe. Again, defense versus offense. Namtaru could be substituted by a returning ghost dragon.
Orcs could use a facelift and with the reintroduction of thunderbirds and possibly behemoths, that could make the best stronghold version yet. With thunderbirds either as one of the two options for champion or an alternative unit for the jaguar warriors as both are charging units. Behemoths, should they return would be a fitting alternative for the cyclopes. The crushers could also be substituted for wolf raiders, an option of sturdy damage dealers versus more vulnerable yet more mobile and damaging units.
And inferno would definitely look sweet if we could choose between devil or pit fiend as champion. We of course need some variety in the basic lineup so anything non-humanoid would be good.
Plenty of possibilities, I just wanted to brainstorm a bit on that. The advantages over the H5 system are that not all upgrades will need to have a similar model nor all units will have to have an alternative as that does feel a little forced. Lamasu for instance don't really NEED an alternative unless they had an option for another, large unit. Introducing another lamasu with a different disease version is not such an appealing choice. Secondly, we do not need to create more models than necesary and thus save resources. And of course, we can keep the balance of the game within certain margins. Finally, some units are highly anticipated and I believe we would all love seeing them part of our favourite town once more. No doubt an ambitious plan but one worth considering.
Thoughts?
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 16, 2012 04:17 PM |
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I really love it, actually. (I have always wanted to see some version of the HOMM IV alternate creature system re-implemented).
The only downside is that I'm not sure how exactly you would keep things even-handed in terms of which unit slots get to choose between units vs. alternate upgrades or both, etc. (that is to say, it was very even in HOMM IV because EVERY unit had an alternate base and it was even in HOMM V because EVERY unit had an alternate upgrade).
For this reason, I would like to offer an only slightly varied counter-proposal.
Since this game splits the units into tiers, provide each town a larger "pool" of creatures in each tier, and cap buildings at the current buildings per tier (3-3-1).
That is, each town has, say, 5 different Cores to choose from, 5 different Elites, and 2 Champions (all with their own upgrade, of course), and they pick any 3 Core dwellings, any 3 Elite, and any 1 Champion.
Quick illustration:
Necropolis picks 3 of the 5 Cores to build: Skeletons, Zombies, Ghosts, Wraiths, Ghouls. It can also pick 3 of the 5 Elites: Vampires, Lamasu, Liches, Venom Spawn, Dread Knights. It picks 1 of 2 Champions: Fate Spinner or Bone Dragon. 12 units in each town pool, each with its own upgrade, and you can build 7 of them.
This would be a bit difficult to balance, but not impossible. They could throw in mutual building restrictions, e.g. if you build Liches, you can't build Venom Spawn and vice-versa. However, that may not even be necessary. Having TOO many archers in an army, for example, is not ideal, because they're at a big disadvantage once the enemy closes (the Venom Spawn would be 2x2 so they'd be harder to turtle).
In any case, your point is well-taken, Elvin, that if they serve different purposes in the army (Ogre Magi vs. Cyclops), it can easily go out-of-balance. However, if they were played with and some combination was found to be out-of-balance, certain building combos could be restricted, or certain units could be nerfed or buffed.
And anyway, I would MORE than happily tolerate a bit more imbalance in exchange for such a massive boost in variety and strategy.
I suppose this is all very pie-in-the-sky, but it is really fun to fantasize about nevertheless. I guess the pools could be 4-4-2 instead of 5-5-2 to reduce the number of new creatures to be designed and balanced, but I infinitely prefer the latter. 
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 16, 2012 04:27 PM |
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For the time being the alternative upgrades should not even be considered. The balance is a huge mess and the addition of extra creatures per faction will just make it worse. When (read "if") the game finally gets balanced after X patches, then further additions can be considered. Right now it's not even clear what each faction should to to be on a par with the others and not too strong or too weak.
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And inferno would definitely look sweet if we could choose between devil or pit fiend as champion.
Only if the Devil is at least twice stronger than the Pit Fiend (with lower growth of course), otherwise it will be pretty weird.
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Wckey
Famous Hero
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posted February 16, 2012 04:28 PM |
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I like your idea, but I would prefer an H4 system instead of alternative upgrades or a mix.
Maybe I'm asking something impossible or that wouldn't work well in practice, but they could make 4 or 5 core creatures and 4 or 5 elites, all with a different function, and you could only choose 3 of them.
With H4, a choice betwen an Ogre Magi and Cyclops did not work because you could choose only one kind of creature of the same level, but with only 3 levels of creatures (core, elite, champion) and the possibility of choosing multiple creatures it might work.
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Come back soon, Elvin!
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 16, 2012 04:55 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 16:57, 16 Feb 2012.
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it didn't work just because the ogres mages were much weaker. the cyclop was the only shooter who could shoot creatures he couldn't even see and ignore range retaliation, making him quite imba. otherwise he would have been quite average.
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 16, 2012 05:47 PM |
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For the time being the alternative upgrades should not even be considered. The balance is a huge mess and the addition of extra creatures per faction will just make it worse. When (read "if") the game finally gets balanced after X patches, then further additions can be considered. Right now it's not even clear what each faction should to to be on a par with the others and not too strong or too weak.
GUYZ THE GAME IS BROKEN GUYZ UNTIL ITS FIXED DONT TALK ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE K THX BYE
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Maybe I'm asking something impossible or that wouldn't work well in practice, but they could make 4 or 5 core creatures and 4 or 5 elites, all with a different function, and you could only choose 3 of them.
With H4, a choice betwen an Ogre Magi and Cyclops did not work because you could choose only one kind of creature of the same level, but with only 3 levels of creatures (core, elite, champion) and the possibility of choosing multiple creatures it might work.
?
I gather that you skipped over my post.
In any case, at least it's proof that it's an appealing enough idea that two different posters came up with it independently. 
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Falconian
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 16, 2012 06:09 PM |
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GUYZ THE GAME IS BROKEN GUYZ UNTIL ITS FIXED DONT TALK ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE K THX BYE
Fixing the balance in H6 would take very little modding really, as the core problems are not many.
Cyclops attack can be fixed already, at this point we just need to buff Goblins, fix Cerberi and give more health/creature count to Inferno and there, balance done.
Nonetheless, Inferno and Orcs still take some getting used to: you can't just play them the haven/necro way, you need to focus on attack rather than loss-prevention.
Back on topic, I would love to see alt upgrades.
The only issue would be getting the AI to recruit them
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 16, 2012 06:12 PM |
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@seingeist, you seem to have a problem with fixing the game. May I ask what is it? Use lower cases AND arguments please ktnxbye.
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Wckey
Famous Hero
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posted February 16, 2012 06:19 PM |
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Edited by Wckey at 18:25, 16 Feb 2012.
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I gather that you skipped over my post.
I started creating my post before you sent yours. But since I'm so slow to press the submit button (I always think a lot before posting, since I'm not good at speaking english) I ended up posting much later.
But I read your post after that, I was just a bit too lazy to comment on that.
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Come back soon, Elvin!
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 16, 2012 06:35 PM |
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@seingeist, you seem to have a problem with fixing the game.
And presumably, the way to demonstrate my commitment to fixing the game would be to complain everytime someone does anything but whine about the same old problems again?
WE ALL KNOW the game has major balance issues, Zenofex.
WE ALL KNOW the skill system is a disaster.
WE ALL KNOW there are pervasive problems in the underlying game mechanics.
These points have long been beaten to death in countless threads on this board and the Ubi boards. If you still just can't get enough of it, there are plenty of threads in which you are welcome to vent.
In the meantime, some of us apparently think it is fun or fruitful to discuss various other ideas for the game. I don't see how trolling into such threads and effectively telling everyone to shut up about it is going to get the game "fixed" any faster.
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GUYZ THE GAME IS BROKEN GUYZ UNTIL ITS FIXED DONT TALK ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE K THX BYE
Fixing the balance in H6 would take very little modding really, as the core problems are not many.
Cyclops attack can be fixed already, at this point we just need to buff Goblins, fix Cerberi and give more health/creature count to Inferno and there, balance done.
Nonetheless, Inferno and Orcs still take some getting used to: you can't just play them the haven/necro way, you need to focus on attack rather than loss-prevention.
Back on topic, I would love to see alt upgrades.
The only issue would be getting the AI to recruit them
I was being a bit sarcastic, but that seldom translates well over the internet.
I think your balancing suggestions are on target, but additionally the skill system still needs a lot of work, the Inferno racial needs to be looked at, Luck/Morale need to be buffed, Necro needs to be nerfed, etc.
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I started creating my post before you sent yours. But since I'm so slow to press the submit button (I always think a lot before posting, since I'm not good at speaking english) I ended up posting much later.
But I read your post after that, I was just a bit too lazy to comment on that.
No worries, I was just a little confused because it was almost the exact same idea. As I said though, I'm pleased that you didn't see it because it proves that it least someone else was thinking the same way independently.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted February 16, 2012 06:47 PM |
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To be honest, I wouldn't want to spend any of budget on this.
It is one of those things that look great in theory but end up being a cherry picking system that effectively kills of 1/2 of the upgrades.
It happened to skill system which is in my opinion simpler of the 2.
Alternative upgrades are not a small task. I would prefer the resources being put into adding more factions, or simply more creatures.
The proposed mix system might work, but i still feel it would end up having the exact same flaw. Most of the choices end up being obvious ones. It switches the focus from meta balance (which is somewhat easier to obtain, and more important in my opinion) to balancing small details against each other. Many game design's failed at that specific instance.
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Falconian
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 16, 2012 06:56 PM |
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the skill system still needs a lot of work
We can mod 90% of the skills; I think the only ones we can't mod yet are those that give passive bonuses to the hero himself (+morale +defense etc) but the others are moddable.
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the Inferno racial needs to be looked at
Can be fixed already.
I can mod the healing of the gating, the turns it takes, the amount of creatures it creates etc.
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Luck/Morale need to be buffed
I find morale and luck triggering a lot already if you spec right and take the right artifacts.
Plus, it can be fixed in some ways.
For example, I can change the amount of morale and luck some skills like heroism and burning determination.
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Necro needs to be nerfed, etc.
Can be fixed already as well.
If you refer to necromancy it's possible to mod the amount of healing, the tier locked/unlocked, out of time, lich channelling etc.
What I'm saying is: quit hoping in ubi "fixes", they didn't fix the imbalances in H5 and won't fix the ones in H6.
They prolly think Haven and Necro are -supposed- to be OP and Inferno/Stronghold supposed to be a sort of "enemy faction" that's weak and all.
If we want to fix the game we gotta do it ourselves, just put down a sheet of what you think needs to be done and we can do it.
The problem is that there will surely be 100 different opinions on what needs to be done, some will say "this is fine as it is" because they found out how to counter it and some will continue to think it's OP.
For example, I personally balanced the game by nerfing Haven/Necro racials and buffing spell-based healing so everyone is on the same boat when it comes to loss-prevention, but do you think everyone will agree?
I'm pretty sure there's someone who would see Regen and Heal toned down to useless and racials being game-breaking.
I would love to see the H6 community go beyond the balance complaints and start doing some serious modding/mapmaking, so if I can help in some ways to get you beyond that dead end just ask and I'll try.
Then we can make alt 'grades hopefully! 
I want the Death Knight. Badly.
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 16, 2012 06:56 PM |
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To be honest, I wouldn't want to spend any of budget on this.
I don't believe that discussing this issue necessarily means that we think that it is a higher priority than correcting the game's many current problems.
I wouldn't have Black Hole put this anywhere near the top of their list either; they need to fix what's there before adding more.
I just enjoy considering it as a fun way to make the game deeper, even if it isn't "realistic" in terms of what Black Hole will be able to do in the foreseeable future.
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The proposed mix system might work, but i still feel it would end up having the exact same flaw. Most of the choices end up being obvious ones.
But isn't that what buffing and nerfing is for? If one of the choices is too "obvious," then it simply needs to be nerfed until it becomes less "obvious" in relation to the other choices.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 16, 2012 06:56 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 18:58, 16 Feb 2012.
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So if you know that a problem exists, you should also know that if the limited resources are assigned properly, nothing good will happen in the end. Take a look at the facts:
1. Heroes VI was released with many missing features;
2. Heroes VI was released with many bugs;
3. Heroes VI was released with very bad balance.
So far we have ONE patch (not counting the day 1 thing) to partially address point 2 and this is 4 months after the release of the game. By now it should be obvious to everybody that Black Hole are undermanned and underfunded, even if we don't take into account their actual programming skills (which I can't comment because I don't know s*** about programming). I'm not expecting a working game with all the features of even Heroes III before the end of the summer this year (optimistically), let alone major additions like alternative upgrades. But I'd prefer to get this working game with these features rather than one even greater mess with next to zero replayability.
In any case, this topic belongs to The Altar in my opinion (because it's mostly daydreaming ).
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 16, 2012 07:03 PM |
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I would love to see the H6 community go beyond the balance complaints and start doing some serious modding/mapmaking, so if I can help in some ways to get you beyond that dead end just ask and I'll try.
I would absolutely love to see this as well. I had gotten the impression from the modding thread that things had not been going too well, even in the (ostensibly simple) realm of tweaking unit stats. If you're saying that that's not the case, I couldn't be more pleased to hear it. 
I didn't realize that your initial remarks were made in the context of community modding, so I was responding with the assumption of Black Hole fixes (remote as that possibility may be).
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Falconian
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 16, 2012 07:12 PM |
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I would absolutely love to see this as well. I had gotten the impression from the modding thread that things had not been going too well, even in the (ostensibly simple) realm of tweaking unit stats. If you're saying that that's not the case, I couldn't be more pleased to hear it.
I didn't realize that your initial remarks were made in the context of community modding, so I was responding with the assumption of Black Hole fixes (remote as that possibility may be).
Yes, I'm convinced modding is the only way to achieve balance.
Black Hole fixing is a remote possibility, and Black Hole doing the -right- fixing is, I fear, close to impossible.
I'll give balancing a try, but we'll have to make a thread about it.
I'm pretty sure an expansion will be made at some point, with more factions and possible alt upgrades, neutrals... afterall, HOMM always sells good, I doubt no one will pay a studio to make an expansion that would generate some good revenue.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted February 16, 2012 10:36 PM |
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So, back to the original topic. I think diversifying upgrading and tiers would be great to get more diversity into existing faction.
And aside from some objections I have from a lore perspective to some of the specific proposals, I would agree to the venture in itself.
However, I do agree with Seingeist that a haphazard approach to such a venture, would leave factions lopsided. And in such a light I think that the approach Gnomes took in this thread by setting it even for all factions. Though the idea of locking the factions when one thing is chose is one I do not agree on. In short summary of the idea: Every faction gets 4 choiches on Core and Elite Tiers and 2 on Champion. On Core and Elite tiers, two creatures are compulsory and for the thirs structure one can make a choice between two alternatives that prevent the other from being built. On the Champion tier, it si simply a choice between two champions where the choice of the one rules out the other.
And in regard to the upgrading system, when choosing for such a model, I would say that the compulsory tiers have alternate upgrades, whereas choice tiers have one upgrade only.
To put this into perspective into existing factions in Heroes VI, as say Haven it might look something like this. (for the moment I am more or less disregarding lore, because I am making several choices here that I would find difficult to explain myself)
In the Core tier Sentinels and Crossbowmen are compulsory units. Sentinels upgrade either into Preatorians or Halberdiers; Crossbowmen upgrade either into Marksmen or a Longbowmen. Then there is the choice between Sisters > Vestals or War Hounds > War Wolves.(for instance)
The same would be applied to the Elite Tier Sun Riders and Griffins would be compulsory. Griffins would upgrade either in Imperial Griffins or into Hippogriffs. Sun Riders upgrade either in Sun Crusaders or Sun Templars. Then there is a choice between either Radiant Glories > Blazing Glories or Monks > Abbots
On the Champion Tier there would be the choice between Celestials > Seraphs or Silver Dragons > Gold Dragons. (Don't attack me on these choices, they serve a exemplative purpose only)
Now where such a choice mechanism put in place, there would also a counter-mechanism put into place. Sticking to above examples, there would be a mechanism needed for turning Preatorians into Halberdiers and vice versa. And Mechanisms to replace the Dwellings of Celestials with that of Silver Dragons. Other limitations apply as wel. For instance it cannot be so that one choice tier is a large creature, whereas the other isn't, for this could well lead to lopsides battlefield placement. On the otherhand the battlefield could be enlarged across the board, to counteract such lopsidedness, but I think that more or less defeats the purpose of trying not to have lopsided armies in terms of size.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 16, 2012 11:42 PM |
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Back on topic ...
I'm myself very torn on this. I would go for alternative upgrades across the board just because ... well, mostly because I guess I like uniformity. I can see places where alternative creatures would work, though, but some of those you mention could as well be an alternative upgrade - the Crusader, for instance, could easily be upgrade of Praetorian. Making the Thunderbird and upgrade of Jaguar Warrior comes less natural.
I agree 100 % with Seingeist that unit choice H4 style makes much more sense with the new tier system, i.e. you choose multiple and not just either/or on each tier. One needs each unit to stand apart from the others on the tier, however. One tank, one offensive unit, one flying, one ranged/caster/special on each tier could work as a basic parameter to organize that. My problem with unit choice is I fear you'll end up always skipping the same unit.
Alternative upgrades face a major chalenge with the new system. In Heroes 5, things were relatively simple in that you could make the two creatures offensive/defensive in their respective kind, and thus have them different (they failed miserably at this most times, but many Haven units were good examples of this done right). That is less easy with Heroes 6 system, because with many creatures on each tier, if you have several melee Elite units, for instance, and each has an offensive/defensive version, they end up being very much alive (where currently one may be offensive, the other defensive, hence different). On the other hand, alternative upgrades are much more flexible during the game (easier to adapt to situation) and could be tied up nicely with Tear/Blood and ressource system.
On bottom line, I think a 4/4/2 scenario for each faction would be great and the most easy place to start, with alternative upgrades an option later on either for some or all creatures.
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What will happen now?
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httassadar
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 17, 2012 01:25 PM |
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Alternative upgrade would sync well with reputation system.
One tear and one blood upgrade. Both upgrades will be available to all heroes, but same reputation as hero will get some bonus (a bit like the skills).
IMO H4 style alternative building does not work immediately for the current 3-tier system. If you are to choose 3/3/1 from 5/5/2 say, then you will for most time end up with as many shooter/caster as possible.
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van
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 18, 2012 05:56 PM |
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For me, the only way to continue to play this game is adition of some sort of choseing betwen creatures or different upgrades. HIV way was good, but any system will do. This game needs diversity.
Also, diferent ways to build diferent towns, not a carbon copy of each other as it is now.
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