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| Thread: Noob Questions |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Duthos
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 04:29 AM |
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Edited by Duthos at 04:47, 02 Mar 2012.
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Noob Questions
I got a few, but the main one stumping is grasping the 'wogify' thing. I mean, I know what it is, but I am unclear about using it on maps specifically made for WOG. I just downloaded Undead Islands (from maps4heroes) which was listed as a WOG map, so I started it and chose to NOT wogify (as I understand you are not supposed to wogify WOG maps), but besides the popup that said it was 'half-wogified' I noticed that none of the normal wog functions seem to be active (commander, different chests, etc), so I am a little unclear whether I should wogify this map or not.
The other questions I can think of off the top of my head are; is there any way to disable the animations for commanders outside of combat? They flicker on my computer. Is there any particular reason the info box on the bottom right is disabled (so one cannot click through the information screen), and can it be re enabled? And lastly, what does it mean when my week popup is completely blank?
I almost certainly have more questions, but will save them for now. Thanks.
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 05:11 PM |
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There should be information in the README file or in the description at maps4heroes stating whether the map should be wogified or not. You can ask the author in the comments section of maps4heroes if not. In general, if the wogification question appears, you probably are meant to wogify, because a map maker can disable wogification in an ERM script, so if the map maker made a WoG map with all custom scripts which should not be wogified, that map maker should have also disabled wogification. I know examples of several WoG maps of both kinds (those that should and should not be wogified).
I haven't had the problems you describe, if I understand them, so I don't know the answers, but suspect the wogification issue might be involved, since it is possible to disable or replace menu button functions with ERM scripts also.
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Duthos
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 10:12 PM |
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Edited by Duthos at 22:14, 02 Mar 2012.
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There was no readme with the map (edit - there is a readme, but it contains no information relevent to the map, and I think it is required of the host site a la demonoid), and no comments either, but I will try the map wogified (been doing RoE), your explanation makes sense.
The week thing I think was a one-time thing, the box in the lower right that shows yer current hero stats, the cloudscape and town info in what I am talking about, no matter the WOG options clicking on that box doesn't allow me to cycle the same way it does if I am playing the standard edition.
The 'flicker' on the commanders info screen (from the hero screen) is two blocks of the image of them walking that disappears during two frames, which I find quite annoying, so I would be happy if I could replace the commander animation on that screen with a still image (or a way of fixing this 'flicker')
Thank you for the response.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 02, 2012 10:23 PM |
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If a downloaded WoG map has no scripts inside, and can be wogified, just throw it away, means it is a fake one. Many mapmakers use WoG editor just for having more objects in map, or new look, without worrying much about game play. In general those maps are unplayable, or offer very little challenge, no ideas or new events.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Duthos
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 10:58 PM |
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Edited by Duthos at 22:59, 02 Mar 2012.
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Wel, to be honest I prefer most wogify options disabled anyway. About the only things I like are a couple improved skills (some like eagle eye really need the help), external dwelling creature and guard growth, a couple of the adventure objects, the lesser of the improved artifacts options, buy all, tower exp, and a couple other minor things that either add a little bit, or minor improvements. I like HOMM3, and with the full wog in effect it feels like a completely different, and very unpolished, game.
Which is why I am waiting on HOTA in english with baited breath.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 02, 2012 10:59 PM |
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WoG is for custom maps. Trying it on random or not scripted maps with the wogify options will only leave a bad taste because most of those options do not marry well or even incompatible. But custom maps will show you how powerful is.
HoTA offers new creatures and town, within same mechanics and unavoidable bugs as Heroes III. Except the artistic part and the awesome design, I see no real interest in, for those looking upon new ideas or challenges. Game-play speaking only. If they move it to WoG, and they will do, there are chances it becomes a must for modders and mapmakers too.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Duthos
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 11:42 PM |
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I try to keep an open mind... can you recommend a good map to try that takes advantage of what WOG has to offer without straying so far from HOMM3 that it feels like a different game? (commanders, thugs, stack experience, mithril and lvl 8 critters are probably what I dislike most about it)
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 02, 2012 11:51 PM |
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Duthos
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 03, 2012 12:13 AM |
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Edited by Duthos at 00:28, 03 Mar 2012.
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Thanks, I will try that soon (just started the RoE campaign, finally. Been meaning to do it for years).
Edit - Just loaded it, read the readme, and all first day events.. and I am more than impressed. One thing I am unclear on is the mention in the text of this being a second chapter, is this where the story starts a la star wars, or is there a prequel map I should play?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 03, 2012 12:36 AM |
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There are several maps made by them with same characters, but they can be played each one separately. Corribus is thinking to pack them in one campaign, but there are technical details to overcome for this, maybe in the future. IMO Thunk is the most interesting from all, but depends on tastes.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Duthos
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 03, 2012 01:19 AM |
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Edited by Duthos at 01:39, 03 Mar 2012.
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I intended to just poke around the map a little, and get back to my campaign, but that map drew me in pretty good. It is amazing, and I see what you mean about WOG being about modding tools rather than wogifying maps. I wonder if one could distill all the modding enhancements out of WOG without all the rest of the baggage...? A wog-lite if you will, without the shoddy video, nuked SOD campaign, or anything else that changes the game itself, basically limiting its effects to the map/campaign editor, while all that is done with the heroes3.exe is adding support for such?
Anyway, I am gonna shelve this map for now (I am determined to actually make through the campaign this time), but thanks a lot for your explanations and suggestion.
Edit - As an aside, is there any way to remove/reset the time expires loss condition from standard campaigns, I hate being rushed (which is why I prefer to play turn based games).
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 03, 2012 02:19 AM |
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This has been already discussed and the answer was no, nobody will make a lite-wog. There are different opinions on what means "it changes the game", some think special abilities improve the original game, others not. Some think commanders improve the game play, others not. I personally find level 8 great additions, as long as we can customize them and make true bosses. Others are thrilled at only their look. I personally find a new resource as mithril, more than welcome and I can not understand counter arguments, if any (you like HoTA which brings new town/creatures, but don't like a new resource? where is the logic?)
Moreover, WoG can't be cut so easy, because all scripts are useful in different situations and again, people can't agree on which to cut. For those aiming for a "pure" (what is pure anyway) HoMM game, there is always possibility to disable all unwanted scripts in a simple click.
Same for time limits: is like asking removing validity delay for food. Yes, you can, but nonetheless, consuming the food after that delay will leave again a bad taste. Maps and campaigns are designed with care, and tested within the time limits. Removing them is invalidating the plot and even makes them unplayable often, because Heroes was NOT designed to be played for long periods, as >12 months.
You will get frozen games, creatures blocking all paths, crashes and resources overflow. A pure Heroes game.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Duthos
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 03, 2012 03:12 AM |
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I understand about the time limit thing, it is likely a character flaw of mine, but I always prefer playing a game to winning it (back when I played magic the gathering people hated me because my decks were often designed to prolong the game until people simply quit in frustration).
As to the mithril thing, six resources is plenty, and it isn't a standard resource either, but is only used (far as I know) to improve things that don't need to be improved. Chess would not be better if one could improve bishops into queens, for example. Even if it were incorporated into the cost of some buildings it would just be one more resource to manage, and there are already towns that need resources more than others, all this would do is hurt them more than the other towns.
A new town and creatures that are both inventive and true to the theme and character of HOMM, like HOTA, is much like an expansion pack, one could easily imagine the designers of HOMM3 making exactly that, whereas one could not imagine them adding 2/3rds of WOG. The buy all button is another thing one could imagine the original creators doing (especially since they have done so in later games), same as external dwelling population growth. But commanders, thugs and recolored higher-tier monsters are not things that have been done in subsequent games (again, unless vi did), they are not cannon to the standard HOMM universe.
And no matter what options you select in the WOG screen, the intro video remains, the title screen and other alternative artwork, remains (which I dislike) the commander icon remains, various WOG messages pop up at the start of most maps, the SOD campaign is disabled, and I am sure there are other effects that remain as well.
I understand your argument that many such decisions can be considered arbitrary, whether this change or that change is true to the 'spirit' of HOMM3, but erring on the side of caution in all those examples would probably satisfy most people, as the options would remain to be used by map makers.
Basically, HOTA feels like an expansion (though I may be wrong, as I could not read the text, but it certainly seems like it), whereas WOG is very clearly a mod. We could probably debate until we're both blue in the face (which I actually don't mind), but when it comes right down to it, it is a matter of taste. The big difference is that while many who like HOMM3 like WOG, I would be surprised if ANYONE that liked HOMM3 disliked HOTA.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 03, 2012 03:39 AM |
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Mithril is a new resource without specified use, except for one universal script which can be disabled. You use it for what you want to, once this script disabled. For example, in THUNK, mithril is named "plutonium bars" and is used to blow special obstacles, and unlock map areas. I doubt will be more realistic to use wood for that.
Quote:
the intro video remains, the title screen and other alternative artwork, remains (which I dislike) the commander icon remains, various WOG messages pop up at the start of most maps, the SOD campaign is disabled
I see nothing here which affects the game-play. Only small visual issues. The SoD campaign is still playable from Heroes executable, which is not deleted by WoG install. The last ERA II version incorporates WoG as mod, leaving regular resources untouched. Maybe in a future version, scripts causing regular crashes or other problems will be permanently removed, but it is long work.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Duthos
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 03, 2012 04:10 AM |
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In the example you gave I contend that it would be superior to add a custom artifact to accomplish the same thing, I assume such would be possible to script. Same effect, except that it could be a holy hand grenade (or somesuch) that makes more sense than bars of plutonium exploding, which they really don't do, radioactive decay is very different and would never remove an obstacle (unless that obstacle was a mad scientist seeking it of course), as well as having to have a hero carry it to the required location.
As to the rest, again perhaps it is a character flaw of mine, but I approach games as complete experiences. Things that break immersion ruin games for me, such as things that feel 'tacked on', like the WOG options on the map select. I am a perfectionist, I dislike unpolished products, and most all mods are. HOTA taking their [sweet] time to ensure a quality, and complete, release is exactly the kind of thing that appeals to my personality, because most mods that are released as anything other than completed projects never become completed projects, being in a constant state of not-quite-done until the creator loses interest.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 03, 2012 07:27 AM |
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Quote:
WoG is for custom maps. Trying it on random or not scripted maps with the wogify options will only leave a bad taste because most of those options do not marry well or even incompatible.
I play on Wogified random maps and find it fun.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted March 03, 2012 07:57 AM |
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Agreed. Nothing wrong with wogifying random maps, save for the occassional errors...
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 03, 2012 11:06 AM |
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Quote:
I am a perfectionist, I dislike unpolished products, and most all mods are. HOTA taking their [sweet] time to ensure a quality
It took a very long time to polish WoG, much longer than HoTA, speaking in terms of constant work. Both aim for different things, comparing is a waste. So far, WoG allows reading into main resources and modify everything which suits your play style, things that not a single of modern games, build on million dollars budgets allow. Nice graphics I see in any game, full modding possibilities in none of them. Again, most complains scratch the very first surface (graphics not enough polished) but fail to see the true purpose or functionality.
Strange that you call HoTA polished product while it is still in russian only, with only a vague promise that will be one day in english, and while is moving to WoG, because it can not progress without it. How would players community react if Skyrim for example was released only in russian? Maybe we have different views about what "polished" means then.
Plutonium bars do not explode? Since when disrupting ray reduce defense in real life? Water walk? All is about teasing your imagination, ideas, suggestions.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Duthos
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 03, 2012 01:23 PM |
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I have played HOTA, albeit in russian. Nothing seems out-of-place like the commander button on the hero page, all animations are smooth and flawless, the new town looks great and behaves just like the other ones... you can just feel the quality. There really is no other way to describe it.
As to the bars thing... it is about being logically consistant. If you give something a name matching a real world object it should share the qualities of it, crystals look like crystals, sulpher is yellow an associated with fire, mercury is used by alchemists, etc. It isn't about realism, it is about believability. And I find it difficult to believe one could forge plutonium into bars without it exploding, if exploding is what plutonium does in that world. I haven't seen the event in question so I am at a disadvantage, if there is a catalyst that, when combined with the plutonium bars, creates an explosion then it would be less silly, if not then the question of why it didn't blow up a million times before it was intended to begs attention.
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 03, 2012 03:30 PM |
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Edited by JimV at 20:34, 03 Mar 2012.
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Some minor thoughts on these issues:
(quote)
1; do the graphics for commanders always flicker?
2; the overview in the bottom right is not responsive, I cannot click on it to cycle through it's displays.
3; what does it mean when the popup for the week has no text?
1) Yes, I see a black line across the Commander animation in the Commander screen every couple of frames. It has never bothered me, so I forgot about it until I checked just now. My guess is the animation display uses the same routine as used to display a GIF file in the ERM IF:D command, because I have seen the same thing in IF:D GIF's. This could possibly be cured by adjusting the timing between GIF frames, so that it is not out of phase with the screen painting - but this might vary from computer to computer (maybe it was just right for the computers used by the WoG Team several years ago). It might also be cured by changing from an animation to a single, static scene. Advanced modders (see other topics at this site) could probably do one or both of these things.
2) I have checked a dozen different WoG games - "Aniconic", "Alexander the Great", "New Magic", "Death March", etc., to name a few, and none of them have this characteristic. Does this happen in every WoG map you have tried? If so, it may be some installation problem. If not, it is the result of some ERM script in the particular map which gives this behavior.
3) Same answer as 2).
My take on WoG vs. SoD, which I have bored people with many times before: WoG opens up a vast field of opportunity for map-makers, which most map-makers will use to make plot-driven, RPG-type maps. Using ERM to make the AI more effective while maintaining a strategy-type game is also possible but much more difficult. (My small attempt at that is "Friends and Foes"; for a more comprehensive attempt see Bersy's "Phoenix Mod" at this site.) The RPG's I would compare to books in a library. If I were blind-folded and picked a fiction book randomly at a library, the odds are 100 to 1 that I will not like the book, but some I will love. However, other people have different tastes, such as my nephew Connor, who would rather watch the Smurf movie than "Winter's Bone". Unfortunately, the local cineplex caters much more to Connor's demographic than mine, but as Hemingway said, there is no use whining.
P.S. Export the map text for "Thunk", edit it in a text editor to change "Plutonium Bars" to "White Plastique Explosive", and import it back into the map, and you will have lit one small candle instead of cursing the darkness. I make text changes in most of the good maps I download. (It is not always wise to tell the author this, though.)
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