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| Thread: New skill tree |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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GueulEclator
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 10, 2012 07:14 AM |
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How is it constructive if in the end it doesn't have any purpose? If nobody has any intention to make a mod about this, then I don't see why people are losing their time discussing about something that will never happen. It's not like the Dev will read this anyway (i hope they could though)
They just released a Q/A, its right under this thread, and nobody seems to pay atention to it, while it is a vital subject (especially because it means we could also ask for a Q/A with ubihole, so they can answer all our questions).
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you are all a bunch of no life hanging
for hours with da same game. F CUK
FU CK FU CK. BITC HES HOnestly you
all suck. And video game is
for children. This game mecanics are
outdated, total ... too long to display...
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GueulEclator
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 10, 2012 07:19 AM |
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By the way, i'm not raging and i'm pretty calm right now (just in case you think i'm here to troll because i'm pissed off).
Also, do you know why they accorded the interview to a small spanish website, while this one is the biggest? Do you think there is a way for this forum to have one too?
____________
you are all a bunch of no life hanging
for hours with da same game. F CUK
FU CK FU CK. BITC HES HOnestly you
all suck. And video game is
for children. This game mecanics are
outdated, total ... too long to display...
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Neurf
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 10, 2012 09:10 AM |
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This kind of thread is good for any of us who'd like to create games but don't work in this industry. Nor have any developping knowledge. You know basic thing for a good game is neither the code nor the mathematical mechanics you use but the concept you create. This is the biggest lack of H6 imo : they wanted so many features that in the end none of them were properlly conceptualized.
So what the point of this thread ? First have fun with our brain together, like back when i was a teenager i used to adapt RPG rules to feat my way of mastering it and shared it. Second is to give VIPs (or dev if they come and read) ideas so that this game can be better for us.
@krs :
- About the forced T1 number : disagree. It's forced and have no rpg justification. It can be very difficult to implement if the trees are different. If you take 1 T1 skill in light magic and 1 in earth magic, can you take now T2 earth spell ? Won't it be too hard to manage for both player and dev ?
- About the different requirement for skills : disagree again. If a skill is not as good as another, make it better or kill it. It will not give depth to gameplay only complexify things artificially.
- For the lvl 10 requirement : totally agree. The gap is really to high between lvl 5 and lvl 15.
I would lower the requirement for the ultimate tears/blood too (from 1000 to 750, or so) so that you can rush to ultimate and have a chance to have it for final battle.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 10, 2012 11:16 AM |
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Quote:
@krs :
- About the forced T1 number : disagree. It's forced and have no rpg justification. It can be very difficult to implement if the trees are different. If you take 1 T1 skill in light magic and 1 in earth magic, can you take now T2 earth spell ? Won't it be too hard to manage for both player and dev ?
The requirement is in the SAME school not across schools. Before it was under the form of Basic-Advanced-Expert. It will "force" you to focus one one or another school instead of nitpicking skills from every single school out there school. (EG go level 15 and take puppet-master without any other single skill in dark, or go directly lightning bolt in air, or only reinforcements from tactics, etc.)
Quote:
- About the different requirement for skills : disagree again. If a skill is not as good as another, make it better or kill it. It will not give depth to gameplay only complexify things artificially.
This should be on because right now once you reach level 5 you can learn right away any single skill you want up to level 15. Additionally some skills don't scale and if you make them all equally powerful at level 1,5 or 15 they will end up unbalanced 5 levels after.
Quote:
I would lower the requirement for the ultimate tears/blood too (from 1000 to 750, or so) so that you can rush to ultimate and have a chance to have it for final battle.
This is true. On some maps it is impossible to get your ultimate. But imo if you lower the requirement, if you have a huge map it will end up hurting you. So the best way to balance this on smaller maps is with buildings that give you that missing blood or tears. So I say leave it up to the map makers.
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Neurf
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 10, 2012 11:33 PM |
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I think it's better to make skill requirement than to make different skill costs or T1 requirement. Different costs is too complex to play from a player point of view and T1 is forced specialization that give no real return (in term of power).
For instance, you can make Time Stasis being dependant of Mass slow. This would force player to choose a real magic strat without forcing him to overspecialize his hero in one magic. Or Heroic Charge being dependant of Mass Heroism.
For the magic, boosting masteries could be a good way to increase a bit more the specialization interest (as in past heroes you had the choice to boost a magic or to learn another one).
About blood/tears ultimate : right the solution could be that skills give you much more point or a building does that or the map is made for or creature capacities (i read your thread about that, nice ideas in there. Too complex for a vanilla game but could be nice for expansion(s))... Every single solution that fasts a little the ultimate access in "regular games" is good to take imo.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 11, 2012 12:14 AM |
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And I who abandoned the blood and tears thread because of lack of interest  .
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 11, 2012 12:53 AM |
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Edited by krs at 00:54, 11 Mar 2012.
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We can envision the changes we propose to the skill tree like this H6 Skill Summary Proposal.
There are not many changes (+ Snatch vanished in the process of moving it to REALM), but it is much easier visualize gradual corrections to the current skill tree.
Here the changes made so far:
PARAGON - there are 2 skills that do not belong here. They just make things more more complicated.
- Remove Mentoring completely. I do not see the need for this.
- Snatch. Move this to Realm. and make it and upgrade depending on the current Economist 1.
REALM This is the place for SECONDARY heroes. It has ZERO to do with Might! (One big problem here is that the third row is for might heroes only) (If secondary might heroes could reach level 15). So if not made a separate choice altogether, at least allow magic heroes to get them.
Additionally the secondary Hero no longer needs to be in a town for these Skills to have an effect. Instead, these Skills will affect the town within the Control Area that the Hero is currently located in.
- Architect 1 - Remains (Although I would like to see it removed. Everyone takes it, no strategy in that).
- Snatch - Moved from Paragon. As Tier 2 Realm
- Economist III - Production of all mines in the area he's in is increased by one.
TACTICS
- Battle March - I see no need for a separate skill. Can be put in siege master 1,2,3
- Siege Master 2 - Poison supplies and deal earth damage.... on a might hero... This skill makes no sense. Needs rewriting.
- Siege Master 1 now also grants +1 movement to attackers.
- Siege Master 2 Catapult shots also deal 500 damage (Might) to stacks adjacent to their target. Friendly creature's Movement is increased by 2 in siege combats.
- [Siege Master 3] Grants manual control over the Catapult.
WARCRIES
- Pressed attack: You will never use this when you have a large army. So should be available from level 1.
- Heroic charge- Rewrite or remove completely. Its a paladin charge for every creature...
WARFARE
-Archery 3... there are relic artifacts way better that this skill.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted March 11, 2012 09:17 AM |
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- Pressed attack:
I actually use this skill a lot since it grants you basicly an extra action for your hero, sometimes 2. Yes it loses it's iportance later in the game, but that is the price of this skill.
What I lack in the tactic and warfare skill trees are:
1: Skill that adds magic defence to your troops (a 15+ skill to somehow even the balance)
2: A skill that gives you Movement points after battel (jzst like the warpatch structur)
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 11, 2012 10:21 AM |
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Quote:
- Pressed attack:
I actually use this skill a lot since it grants you basically an extra action for your hero, sometimes 2. Yes it loses it's importance later in the game, but that is the price of this skill.
We agree here it seems, that is why it is made available from level 1.
Quote:
1: Skill that adds magic defense to your troops (a 15+ skill to somehow even the balance)
Completely agree.
Quote:
2: A skill that gives you Movement points after battle (just like the warpath structure)
This one is bad. with all the teleporting and + movement objects on the map + town structures stronghold has, I see little need for some extra movement skills. Stables + some well put Rally Flags on the map do a very good job right now. If only there were some rally flags that could help other factions like they help Haven now.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 11, 2012 10:31 AM |
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One flow in the skill tree... some factions really really do not need many many skills that other factions need to get. This way they can spend their points in other skills.
Haven for example. They do not ever, ever need: Reinforcements. (3 skills). Siege-master (3 skills), Archery 3 (1 skill and this is ultimate skill). That is 7 might skills (without much thinking could be more) that haven never gets and can freely spend in other trees.
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Neurf
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 11, 2012 12:20 PM |
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Totally agree to share our thoughts, that's the way i like doing things even if it doesn't reach reality 
I see a large focus on might skill. As i said i'm a magic player so i'll be of little help for that trees, even if i try to balance things and focus my mind on making awsome might skill...
So here the changes i would make to magic trees (additionnaly to the general things i said before) :
General (for all magic) :
- remove all elemental summoning from the tears skills. Make them general skill with lvl 2-3 mastery as pre-requisit.
- Change masteries bonuses :
Lvl 1 : +3 magic power. Increases effect of all spells by 5% (cumulative)
Lvl 2 : +3 magic power. Add 1 turn to the duration of school spells. Increases effect of spells by 10% (cumulative)
Lvl 3 : +3 magic power. Add 1 turn to the duration of school spells. Increases effect of spells by 15% (cumulative)
Note : mastery only affect one school. So when i say +3 magic power, it means +3 only for that school (earth or air or...)
Air Magic :
- Storm winds 2 : remove damage (thats a tear skill not a blood one...). Add a resistance to ranged damage effect.
- Grounded : add a mass effect at T2
- Grounded : move to tears skill
- Add a T3 skill that boost Storm winds and Grounded effect with grounded and SW as pre-requisit
- Storm arrow : add a T2 spell with mass effect
- Lightning and CL : Up the damage
Earth Magic :
- Lower regeneration (and mass) effect
- Add a T3 skill that boosts regeneration effect with mass regeneration as pre-requisit
- Lower Stone skin (and mass) effect
- Add a T3 skill that boosts Stone skin effect and Stone wall life (with stone skin and stone wall as pre-requisit)
- Stone wall : no more duration => the wall exists till it is destroyed or that the fight ends
- Stone wall : allow to place the wall 1 by 1 and to make a wall with less than 3 blocks (but same mana cost)
- Stone wall : can block ennemy's shooters
- Petrification : lower duration
- Add T1 blood skill : Stone Spikes
- Earthquake : Move to T2 with no other changes
- Earthquake 2 : Add T3 skill that makes damages to all ennemy strutcure (requisit : earthquake)
- Add a T2 blood skill : earth damage has a chance to reduce ennemy movement by 1 (no requisit)
- Find 1 or 2 direct damage spells
Note : i honestly dunno what to do with Poison Cloud. The skill seems nice on the paper but i never used it. Moreover, the cloud thing makes it sound like an air magic, not an earth one... :-/
Fire Magic :
- Fire shield : add a T2 mass effect
- Rage : add mass inner fire as pre-requisit
- Up damage of Fire Bolt, Fire Ball and Fire Storm
Note : inner fire needs a whole morale system rework.
Water Magic :
- Ice Armor : increases Magic defense and not might
- Ice Wall : same changes than for Stone wall
- Add a passive T3 tears spell (maybe a boost to ice armor and ice wall ?)
- Eternal winter : affects all water effect (chilled, frozen and soaked)
- Blizzard : add soaked effect
- Circle of winter : a frozen effect would be too strong but a chilled one is too weak. So dunno how to change that...
Note : as for inner fire, Ice Breaker needs a a whole luck system rework.
Light Magic :
- Move Retribution Aura form tears to blood
- Lower the heal (and mass) effect
- Add a T3 skill that boost heal effect (with mass heal as pre-requisit) and/or add a "reverberation" on it (affected creatures continu to heal themselves at 25% spell power for 1 turn)
- Add a T3 skill that allows you to start each fight with Mass Celestial Armor already casted (pre-requisit : Mass celestial armor)
- Mass purity : add mastery lvl2 as pre-requisit
- Add T3 skill : All light damage removes 1 buff spell of the ennemy target they attack (pre-requisit : sunburst)
- Sunburst : friendly creatures are healed, ennemies are damaged
- Blindness : move from blood to neutral skill
Dark Magic :
- Despair (+mass) : move from blood to tears
- Terror : mass despair as pre-requisit
- Puppet master : mastery lvl3 as pre-requisit
- Mass agony : up the damage (only mass spell)
- Purge : mastery lvl2 as pre-requisit
- Life drain : affect undead too but only 50% of its original value
Note : terror and despair are in the same case as inner fire or ice breaker
Prime Magic :
- Dispel (+mass) : one of the most complicated skill to balance imo. Needs to be fair with ennemies caster so that you can't remove a T3 spell with a T1 spell. Maybe make it dependant of prime mastery (lvl1 = T1 dispell, lvl 2 = T1/T2 dispell, lvl3 = T1/T2/T3 dispell)
- Slow (+mass) : move from neutral skill to tears skill
- Time stasis : add mass slow as pre-requisit
- Haste (+mass) : move form neutral to blood skill
- Teleport : add mass haste as pre-requisit
- Disruption : add T2 mass effect or remove it
- Mana Leech : move from blood to neutral skill
- Add T1 direct damage spell : Magical Arrow
- Implosion : add Magical Arrow as pre-requisit
Other skills are moved to another tree.
Meditation : replace Magic affinity 3, give back 25% of the maximum mana but no more boosts Magic Power.
Was a long post... 
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted March 11, 2012 01:25 PM |
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A long and nice list.
But I disagree with one fact. That is to rework the luck and moral system in spell efects.
For example the Despire terror combo can autocrippel a unit for 3 turns making despire a third paralyse spell i the dark scholl
Also a combination of Icebreaker, and storm arrows is to strong at this moment. Storm arrows with a high MS can give you up to 60%+ boost on range damage. Add an +- instant lucky strike on frozen targets thanks to icebreaker, which will affect both the Arrows and the standard attack and yoor archers will get a boost eaqual to (1x1,5+0,6x1,5=) 2,4 times of its bace damage. And this will just cost you 3 skill points (Icebreaker, Storm arrows and a freezing tool)
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 11, 2012 02:16 PM |
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Edited by krs at 17:53, 11 Mar 2012.
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Wow very nice. I really really like some of the changes.
I especially like the ideas about mastery bonus increase 5%-10%-15% (More like h3-5).
I like that you put prerequisites on some powerful level 3 spells.
Make despair dependent on mastery level! Now it feels only normal to have it so.
I do not like the idea of introducing magic arrow. It will remove the need of hero auto attacks.
For negative morale and luck affecting spells a clear separation between creatures luck/morale and hero's luck morale needs to be implemented. So such a spell would negate heroes morale first and then reduce creature's morale to a value close to minus 30.
Disclaimer: I play mainly might but here's my input.
Remove elementals from tears: I do not see the reason behind it. Plus it leaves water with no level 3 tear.
- Change masteries bonuses : they look way way better like you propose. Totally agree.
Air:
- Storm winds 2 : remove damage (thats a tear skill not a blood one...). Add a resistance to ranged damage effect. - Agree. It's tears no dmg only protection.
- Grounded mass effect. - Factions will usually not have more than 1 flier stack so it will be only useful for creeping... Maybe extend for teleporters?
- Add a T3 skill that boost Storm winds and Grounded effect with grounded and SW as pre-requisit. - This is done by masteries already.
- Lightning and CL : Up the damage - especially for Chain Lightning
Earth Magic:
Earth Magic :
- Lower regeneration (and mass) effect - agree
- Add a T3 skill that boosts regeneration effect with mass regeneration as pre-requisit - agree
- Lower Stone skin (and mass) effect - agree
- Add a T3 skill that boosts Stone skin effect and Stone wall life (with stone skin and stone wall as pre-requisit) ok
- Stone wall : no more duration => the wall exists till it is destroyed or that the fight ends - Agree
- Stone wall : allow to place the wall 1 by 1 and to make a wall with less than 3 blocks (but same mana cost) - i like the current better. It restricts you in placing it. You also have units for walls.
- Stone wall : can block ennemy's shooters - this is not the purpose of this skill, cover penalty is enough.
- Petrification : lower duration - to 3 would be ok
- Add T1 blood skill : Stone Spikes - agree To me it was always strange that earth elementals deal no damage with all that animation.... Stone spikes is needed and add it to elementals also
- Earthquake : Move to T2 with no other changes
- Earthquake 2 : Add T3 skill that makes damages to all ennemy strutcure (requisit : earthquake)
Move all earthquake down 1 tear (Erosion) and add "mass" earthquake.
- Add a T2 blood skill : earth damage has a chance to reduce ennemy movement by 1 (no requisit) - so so
- Find 1 or 2 direct damage spells - spikes is enough
- Poison Cloud has ZERO to do with earth
Fire Magic :
- Fire shield : add a T2 mass effect - Agree
- Rage : add mass inner fire as pre-requisit - Not so found of this. seems forced
- Up damage of Fire Bolt, Fire Ball and Fire Storm - AGREE
Note : inner fire needs a whole morale system rework. - only nerf it somewhat?
Light Magic :
- Move Retribution Aura form tears to blood - agree to few blood skills there anyway
- Lower the heal (and mass) effect - lower creature healing is a better solution
- Add a T3 skill that boost heal effect (with mass heal as pre-requisit) and/or add a "reverberation" on it (affected creatures continu to heal themselves at 25% spell power for 1 turn) - I like this
- Add a T3 skill that allows you to start each fight with Mass Celestial Armor already casted (pre-requisit : Mass celestial armor) - i like this also
- Mass purity : add mastery lvl2 as pre-requisit
- Add T3 skill : All light damage removes 1 buff spell of the ennemy target they attack (pre-requisit : sunburst) - good skill
- Sunburst : friendly creatures are healed, ennemies are damaged - there is too much healing already
- Blindness : move from blood to neutral skill - agree if retribution moved
Dark Magic :
- Despair (+mass) : move from blood to tears - sounds more tearish to me also
- Terror : mass despair as pre-requisit - OK
- Puppet master : mastery lvl3 as pre-requisit - OK
- Mass agony : up the damage (only mass spell) - (to weak compared to normal mass, agree)
- Purge : mastery lvl2 as pre-requisit
- Life drain : affect undead too but only 50% of its original value - I don't agree. I like the fact that some spells are toataly useless in some fights.
Note : terror and despair are in the same case as inner fire or ice breaker
Prime Magic :
- Dispel (+mass) : one of the most complicated skill to balance imo. Needs to be fair with ennemies caster so that you can't remove a T3 spell with a T1 spell. Maybe make it dependant of prime mastery (lvl1 = T1 dispell, lvl 2 = T1/T2 dispell, lvl3 = T1/T2/T3 dispell) - GREAT CHANGE SOUNDS PERFECT
- Slow (+mass) : move from neutral skill to tears skill
- Haste (+mass) : move form neutral to blood skill
I like the blood and tears association of haste slow. But only in the case of difference in effects for tears or blood. mass slow blood slows 1 mass slow tears slows 2.
- Time stasis : add mass slow as pre-requisit - maybe only mastery as prerequisite
- Teleport : add mass haste as pre-requisit - maybe only mastery as prerequisite
- Disruption : add T2 mass effect or remove it - Add mass effect
- Mana Leech : move from blood to neutral skill
- Add T1 direct damage spell : Magical Arrow - this will remove the need for hero attack. So it should stay out.
- Implosion : add Magical Arrow as pre-requisit - no magic arrow no prerequisite
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Neurf
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 11, 2012 04:03 PM |
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Happy to see that my ideas are liked
@Dave_Jame :
When i said to rework the luck and morale system, i was not meaning only spell effects but the whole system for might and magic. I find really unbalanced that a might hero focusing on morale can be totally bitten by mass despair or burning determination. It should be possible but need a price.
For storm arrows, it's only a mathematical matter (lower the damage boost and it won't be that good), the concept itself is good imo.
@krs :
- Elemental : well i changed them because of an RPG approach. You can see them either as shield (tears) or sacrifice (blood)... More selfishly (does this word even exist ?) because my gameplay relly on a summoning/direct damage hero so i like to have both...
- Grounded : now that you say that, it's true it won't affect factions as they are too few flyers. But i don't like the idea of extending it to teleport (it would be too strong). So maybe slow the intiative ?
- T3 boost skill : well i tried to find something that would be in the direct line of the tears skills. So that you doesn't reach tear air magic potential at T2.
- Stone wall : ok no shooters block :'(
- Erosion : i'm for killing this skill. Totally unusefull.
- Petrification : i would reduce it to 1 turn.
It could be boosted that way => if you're tears, you gain 1 turn. If you're a master of earth, you gain 2 turn (at max). With that you can have a 4 turns petrification but you need to invest in it. By the way i would make it independant from the hero lvl.
- For direct damage, it would be nice if you could make a direct earth damage hero. Nice that we agree on Poison Cloud, i really tried to understand the devs choice and found myself stupid 'cause i did'nt find any good reason...
- Rage : yep too forced. Maybe Mastery lvl3 pre-requisit like puppet master ?
- Heal : the goal is to allow player to have a nice heal but only if they focus on it. Just taking Heal(+mass) spell should not give you a sufficient healing to play with. But agree to lower creature heal effect too.
- Life drain : i was thinking of inferno vs necro, and tried to give inferno a way to compensate damages they take (other than regeneration).
- For magical arrow : same as earth damage => you should have a way to make a prime direct damage mage.
- For haste/slow : ofc the tear/blood alignment should change the value of the skills.
- For the missing spells, if we don't have any precise idea we can at least give a general way (like : buff troups or spells, damage ennemies...). This would solve the blank that appears here and there.
Once we will have discuss a bit more about, i will remake my post to be more clear.
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