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| Thread: Why do all the balkan countries hate each other ? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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xerox
Promising
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posted May 25, 2012 08:11 PM |
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isn't Scotland becoming independant now?
tough luck England, there's lots of precious oil up there
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 25, 2012 08:28 PM |
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"But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. - Matthew 23:8
By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. - 1. John 3:10
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; - Revelation 7:9
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 25, 2012 08:30 PM |
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Great, religion.
Because that's going to give you harmony, right?
Yugoslavia should have abolished religion when it had the chance.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted May 25, 2012 11:13 PM |
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Scotland has been 'thinking' of breaking away, but the defense secretary instantly responded to it by saying that if scotland broke away then they'd be far more liable to 'invasion'  .
I'll try to dig through to BBC to find the exact thing, but from my perspective it seemed like a hell of a discreet threat.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 26, 2012 12:23 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 00:30, 26 May 2012.
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Quote:
I don't at all buy these arguments about how there's a lot of prejudice between these states because of "a bunch of wars". Citing stuff from the 19th century and before? Rly? Who didn't have wars in the 19th century down to the Middle Ages? The Balkans doesn't have a single spittle of uniqueness with that. Prior to when weapons became outrageously devastating, there were major wars all the time. Wars were more fashionable than sunglasses.
You should read again, this is not about the wars. If you want a short history class, here you go:
1. In XIX century the Ottoman Empire is one of the most underdeveloped states in Europe economically, institutionally and whatever else you can think of. Respectively, all nations under its rule can't really flourish, even though the situation in, say, the Russian Empire is even worse.
2. In XVIII and especially XIX century all nations on the peninsula under Ottoman rule, in parallel with the weakening of the empire, become more and more self-aware and fight for various rights - cultural, religious, industrial and so on. Then are winning too and here you have early forms of patriotism among people living under foreign reign for centuries.
3. In XIX century these nations don't want the Ottoman rule any more. The empire is dying a slow death, the European Great Powers quarrel for its "heritage" and the non-Turkish people, following their national renaissance in other areas, now want independence. And one by one they begin to gain it - of course not as fully independent states initially but the trend is clear.
4. Now look at 3. These things can't possibly happen without the European Great Powers' consent and in essence they are the ones that draw the political borders inside the Ottoman Empire. None of them - the political leaders at least - cares how the non-Muslims fare inside the empire, in fact for the western Great Powers the predominant Slavic population of the Balkans make them an easier prey for Russia than for them and they do quite a lot to keep the integrity of the empire. Ultimately all new states that appear on Ottoman territory in XIX century have a large number of their ethnicity outside their borders, for the time being still under Ottoman rule. Nobody likes that artificial division and it is the root of all future problems.
5. Long story short, a few years before World War I, three of the states, namely Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece (and Montenegro, but their contribution to the below is minor), already feel powerful enough to take by force from the Ottoman Empire what they consider theirs and the First Balkan War begins. The details are a huge mess, probably you don't want to know them, the result is that the Ottoman Empire loses almost all of its territories on the peninsula. Here's where **** begins to happen.
First, literally a month after the end of the First Balkan War, the second one begins, this time between the former allies. The details here probably vary vastly depending on whose history you prefer to read (for example, in the Bulgarian version the treacherous Serbs and Greeks decide to screw us which of course we don't like and here you go - some of this is true actually but I suppose the neighbours have very similar interpretations of these events, except that the roles of the good and the bad guys are reversed). After its end, the recently conquered territories are re-distributed in favour of the victors - Serbia, Greece and Romania (who do absolutely nothing until this point - their participation in the war is to invade Bulgaria from north while its armies are fighting in the south and through this to win a nice chunk of land near Black Sea). Between the two Balkan Wars and after that all (and I mean ALL) involved participants apply sort of an assimilation and where necessary - cleansing of the population of foreign origin so it can be integrated in the new national borders, be them vaguely drawn at this point. Here you have a rehearsal for what happens in Bosnia some 80 years later, except that it's not so recent and people don't really give a damn about century-old stories, which among other things happen during war time and are considered normal. There was nothing with the scale of Srebrenica but the involved parties were hardly kind. In the end however, there were still pockets and entire regions with population belonging to one country under the rule of another. And of course everybody claims that Macedonia belongs to him.
6. And just after that you have World War I. More redrawing of the borders and more reasons to think that your neighbours are spawns of Satan that constantly plot against you (applies to all). The difference between the ethnic borders and the national borders remain.
7. Then you have some peace, then World War II and then the "communist" regimes everywhere except in Greece and Turkey. Now the communist governments on the peninsula, their relations and their impact on the things mentioned above are a huge topic which I don't have the time to look at right now. I'm not really sure what is the western perception regarding the Eastern block but if you think that it was a monolithic, unquestionably disciplined structure without national nuances (and all issues that come with these nuances, including the above), then you are wrong. I may elaborate later. In any case, you are aware what happens when this structure crumbles.
In the end, you will have to understand - although probably you won't - that the mentality of the Balkan peoples is not the same as yours. Words like kin, nation, ethnicity have different meanings in the minds of the local people than they (probably) have in yours. The Balkan peoples had to survive in a foreign empire - foreign institutionally, culturally, religiously and what not - for centuries after their medieval states were conquered by this very same empire and only an idiot would think that such a thing won't mark their way of thinking for many generations ahead. Add the fact that the big players in the world politics like to play games here and there you go.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted May 26, 2012 12:55 AM |
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@Zeno:
You're overstretching. The point I was illustrating is that the Balkans has experienced warfare in their own back yards in the 1990s. This is recent history and something most people alive today have personally been affected by. Compare it to the state of Europe as a whole in the late 1960s: resentment over WW2 in the 40s was still pretty common during that point in time, and 50+ years forward, it has diminished. It's truly a part history in the sense that you read about it in books for the most part unless you talk to a really really old person. Everything and anything is going to become less emotionally relevant to people's lives as time goes on. Angry people die, new people are born. They'll be raised with a certain mentality, but it will be a diminished echo unless something really bad happens to reinvigorate old conflicts.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 26, 2012 01:16 AM |
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most people I know have zero idea what WW1 was about and know nothing about WW2 except like "Nazis were bad. They killed jews so then everyboy attacked them and they lost."
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted May 26, 2012 01:24 AM |
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Sweden was never anti-Nazi to begin with though. But even English and French school children today aren't really going to give a **** about WW2. It's old. You need something truly harmful to be going on for harsh resentments to persist. Shouting mean things at sporting events just isn't going to cut it.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 26, 2012 02:06 AM |
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I wonder how europe would have looked if hitler won, if it would have been better (for germanic people that is) or worse
I mean he did some nice things with his country like the autobahn etc
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 26, 2012 10:02 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:03, 26 May 2012.
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Quote:
@Zeno:
You're overstretching. The point I was illustrating is that the Balkans has experienced warfare in their own back yards in the 1990s. This is recent history and something most people alive today have personally been affected by. Compare it to the state of Europe as a whole in the late 1960s: resentment over WW2 in the 40s was still pretty common during that point in time, and 50+ years forward, it has diminished. It's truly a part history in the sense that you read about it in books for the most part unless you talk to a really really old person. Everything and anything is going to become less emotionally relevant to people's lives as time goes on. Angry people die, new people are born. They'll be raised with a certain mentality, but it will be a diminished echo unless something really bad happens to reinvigorate old conflicts.
Yes, and the point I was trying to make is that the latest local conflicts - Bosnia and Kosovo - are a result of the same old problems. There are nearly 50 years between the end of World War II and the War in Bosnia (even more between the formation of Yugoslavia and the said war), don't you think that they were enough for the "angry people" to die, etc.? In comparison, there are less than 20 years since the end of the said war and even less since Kosovo. The Albanians in Macedonia are probably the next in line, if the development follows its "natural" course.
There's another thing - you'll get very different impressions depending on your interlocutor. I myself couldn't care less for most of these things - there are other, much bigger and immediate issues to resolve than caring what part of the peninsula "rightfully" belongs to your nation. In Bulgaria's case - to finally repair the wreck that the national economy is since the fall of the socialistic regime, to remove all criminals from power and sever their links to the government (it's hardly exaggerated to say that the country is to a large extent ruled by them), to stop the emigration that will otherwise bleed the nation dry in a few decades and other things like that. Speak to another guy in the street and he'll probably tell you that first we need to get rid of the gypsies (the Roma) by any means necessary and we can do something about the Turks as well. You'll hear quite often that Macedonia is actually a Bulgarian territory, even though the Macedonians fiercely defend their independence (quite often - by literally inventing and fabricating history but that hardly matters in the end) and just don't want to hear about it. The majority of the population can't be bothered with such thoughts most of the time but history tells that many things can change in times of crisis if the necessary prerequisites are in place. In short - thinking that it's all over just because nothing is really happening during the last years is foolish and dangerous.
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foxxxer
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 26, 2012 05:09 PM |
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@blizzardboy, you can’t and won’t understand. It’s not about just a bunch of wars. It’s all about the events during and after the wars namely repressions, moving people from their places to others, cleansing, genocide, assimilation, etc. Yeah, you tell those are old sh*ts. Some of them are old, others not so. But over the years the hatred was growing and growing. When the common man’s grandpas (and their fathers) were participated in so many wars, they start to brainwash him from very infant age. And not only relatives but the whole society brainwash him. If you let yourself to the trend you'll become a prejudiced and easy for manipulation.
For example here in Bulgaria even the literature and folklore from 19th century is orientated against the Turks. Every kid in the school learns history, poetry, novels from that period. You can’t throw away your history, literature and folklore in sake to be more tolerant to your neighbors. I think nowadays the hatred is many times lesser than 100 years ago. It’s not a burning hate as you call it but still there’s a part of detestation against our neighbors.
Let’s make a simulation. Imagine that US economy collapse and you don’t have enough money to endure a big army like now. The Mexicans in southern states become a major ethnic group in the next 30-50 years, decide to separate themselves from US and you can’t stop them. How will you feel about that and what will you do? Here in the Balkans for fewer years has changed the ethnicity in some regions in 20th century of course by violence.
The great powers did so many experiments here. The idea in the late 19th century was not to be created a large states on the place of the Ottoman Empire. But then Yugoslavia was created in 20th century. Then came communism, which created a new nation. After so many experiments here is like earthquake zone. You can’t predict it. It seems calmly and then bam, comes some idiot who starts to rebel some ethnic group. That’s happened in Kosovo and probably will happen in north-west Macedonia in future as Zenofex said. Bosna was a little bit different. The problem wasn’t only ethnical but also religious.
According to me I consider the people that I like and I don't. Not religious, ethnical or other bullsh*ts. As I told in the previous page it’s about time to swallow our anger and differences, and start to build up our broken post-communistic economies. Only Turkey has strong economy the others are in poor conditions. We have enough inner problems like corruption, crime rate, justice system and so on. Albanians also have to give up their ambitions for Great Albania.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted May 26, 2012 06:02 PM |
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Wait, wars cause animosity, or does animosity cause wars? 'Cause I'm pretty sure you guys have it messed up, thinking that the two balkan wars generated the 'hate' between the nations, it's laughable, because it makes no sense that way. The wars were the result of animosity, with age-long roots and not the other way around.
Quote:
They killed jews so then everyboy attacked them and they lost."
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The jews weren't very popular at the time, trying to dig up why exactly, but they were a higly disliked/tolerated minority.
As for the 'everybody attacked them' is more like 'they bit more than they can chew' america had a very distinct foreign policy which at the time consisted of "**** it" and they would've been happy to stay out of the war, had japan not decided that america was a juicy fish to fry.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Dark_Y0uth
Hired Hero
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posted June 26, 2012 03:00 PM |
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Quote:
You'll neve. Understand that, Xerox, for you are from a normal place on our planet. You may get some of the hate thing if you read some history, but you'll know it only if you are from here. Bulgarians for example hate serbians, but if some other state do something bad to Serbia we transpher our hate to them. It happens during the US bombing there, and during the Kosovo problems. Bulgarians hate greek people also, but if only someone from the West, the East, The North or the South say something bad about them we are going to hate him instead them. It's the same with Romania. We also hate Turkey. Um... here we just hate them...
... but all started in history full of wars and represions. It's all thanks to the Great powers. That's it. Balkan people are playing the fools in the modern history after XIX century. The small and poor Balkan states were toys of Russia, Germany, UK, France, Austro-Hungary and etc. They made them enemies.
Pitty, all the Balkan nations are kin. Culturaly at least.
That's why I'm federalist. I support the idea of Balkan federation, just not the Tito type. This will never happen of cource.
In the main, we hate ourself.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted February 01, 2013 04:24 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 12:08, 01 Feb 2013.
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How could I miss this thread...
So lovevly, tell your bosnian friend we hate them in return.
When I say this, I dont say it because he is bosnian, but because he is ass hat to judge an entire ethnic group because of his experience.
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what did Albania do? O.o
We dislike south slavs+East slavs+Greeks in general because of their annexation of our lands(History), mistreatment of albanians(History and today) in their countries, arrogance, and we blame our misfortunes on them. Macedonians are hated because of mistreatment of albanians.
Generally people who are unemployed are albanians because of favoritism towards macedonians. There are clubs in macedonia where "No albanians" allowed inside.
We just dislike slavs+greeks+macedonians, just as they dislike us.
And they dislike us because they consider us like second class people, troublemakers, criminals,thiefs and the enemy(Mostly aligned with dominant powers).
Formerly the Ottoman empire, now the US and each time somebody that opposed the slavs came in the balkans, we supported them.
Be it austirans,italians except slavs of course.
Its an issue of tit for tat basically. Just go to every slavic country + Hungary + Romania, i am sure everyone of them despises us, even poland. Now because of Kosovo, you will mostly hear about solidarity with serbia and such even more disgust.
Its simmilar to the Gypsie issues. Nobody likes gypsies and the second most hated are Albanians.
Because of mass immigration, we are hated by europeans aswell because of the maifa.
An interesting fact, more albanians live abroad than in albania.
We dont like turks. Albanians converted to islam to evade dhimmis status. Also, some albanians had priviliedged status in the time of the ottoman empire.
After some 400 years of occupation, ottomans gave lands to serbs and other neighbours and ethnic albanians were ignored in the process.
Basicly said, we dislike turks because of history. However, since they dont hate us, the relationship has improved during the recent years.
Kosovo albanians also dislike Spain because it did not recognize it.
As for bosnians, we dont care about them. There are many bosnians in kosovo and some people dislike them because of them speaking serbian.
If you want more info, i can try to elaborate. but this should cover it all.
if you enjoy hilarious balkanic swearing and infighting, read the comments of this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHcK790GcaY
Most people in the balkans are "Ethnicist" and religiously motovated to hate eachother.
edit:
Removed some of the things which actually were kinda "Curved".
We dont really hate that much turks compared to Slavs.
However, albanian neighbours are generally hated.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 01, 2013 07:38 AM |
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I think all of this is a little exaggerated. There are nationalists in each of these countries, their number may be some more compared to other regions because conflicts are more recent and most of these countries are still poor (which always produces a search for scape goats) but in the end if you put a regular Turk and a Greek together, they will probably end up playing backgammon.
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NoobX
Undefeatable Hero
Now, this is a paradox...
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posted February 01, 2013 09:02 AM |
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Look, ever since Albanians turned to Islam, they've been a pain for their neighbors. Sugarcoat it as much as you wish, but you can't deny this.
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Ghost said:
Door knob resembles anus tap.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 01, 2013 10:31 AM |
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Edited by artu at 10:40, 01 Feb 2013.
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Look, ever since Albanians turned to Islam, they've been a pain for their neighbors. Sugarcoat it as much as you wish, but you can't deny this.
You mean for the last 500 years, I don't think so. And I certainly don't need to sugarcoat anything, I am not a muslim nor a nationalist. Neighbors trash talk each other a lot, yet put them in an international environment, they immediately start to get along better.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted February 01, 2013 10:57 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 11:49, 01 Feb 2013.
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Look, ever since Albanians turned to Islam, they've been a pain for their neighbors. Sugarcoat it as much as you wish, but you can't deny this.
I really cant make any statement to that. Islam was definitively a dividing factor between the people, as it is even today. But then, if it was not for the dividing factor, whole new history for the area would have been written.
Who knows what would have happened if the Byzantine Empire would have never fallen. Orthodox christianity was already dominant before.
Less wars perhaps? More developmen? Ethnic cleansing?
I do actually believe that nothing would have changed. We dont just hate eachother because of religion. Religion is just a part of the hate. Political reasons are to blame.
The other possibility would be that albanians would not exist.
Being a place constantly under some domniant foreign influence made the inhabitants of the area extremely connected to each other, which produce even to this day some rather clan-like behavior.
Which everyone in the balkans shares.
I really, and I mean it, really dont want go into some historical debats or something. Not because of whos right or wrong, but because I simply dont care. If X lands belonged to the Huns or Slavs or Magyars or Austrians or Germans or whatever the case, I dont care.
Also, I dont know much balkan history to be exact and by much I mean I dont care who or what won battles, controlled what land and so on.
For all I know, those people believed that the world was a table, god made the world in 7 days and their enemies were the spawn of satan.
This is actually christianity before the indistrial revoultion.
What I said earlier might be generelized, but I explained my point of view.
I made it clear why albanians are hated and why they in turn hate.
Someone else also made it clear, being the least developed area in balkans makes you get a nr 1 spot being for being hated. But whatever, other balkan countries are not much better with their organized crime.
I really hope someone does not believe that I hold these some of these views. I mean seriously, its just a fricking hate fest and demonization of each other.
I personally dont hate slavs and actually dont think there should be any reason to hate neighbours. I would much rather love it people actually never bothered eachother. Keyword: bother. I am aware the "Coopearation is impossible".
Sadly, not everyone shares my beliefs, is an atheist or embraces peace or neutrality.
As for sugarcoating. Well, I just explained the Albanian views. You are not supposed to feel discontent here, because this is just an oversimplified view of what people in Albania-Kosovo think.
People hate eachother for the most trivial reasons and even kill eachother for that.
If someone asked, why do some people hate Serbia, I would not feel or accuse you of sugarcoating if you said anything what people in Serbia believed.
I know what serbian people believe and thats ok with me not because I am ok with it but thats just how human nature is. I am also not ok with albanians hating serbs and other slavs, greeks and so on on their beliefs.
And again, its just how mostly people think. It does not mean they are correct.
Whether something is right or wrong is something I neither can change in a population or try to convince them otherwise. But at least I can ignore their views.
Many people believe in conspiracies and when people believe in conspiracies, they also believe that the "Others" are irrevocabley evil.
I am sure cooperation is possible, but only after only the "chain"
of hate preaching is broken.
As it stands now, it continues.
Matters of national identity are sensitive issues. Making compromises might be thought as treason. That is why things in balkans dont change or wont ever change.
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NoobX
Undefeatable Hero
Now, this is a paradox...
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posted February 01, 2013 03:02 PM |
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I won't bother to reply to the post above this because I don't do the OSM style posting.
However, I've noticed (and studied) that Albanians were good in the Middle Ages. They've fought against the Ottomans (modern Turks are nothing like them btw.) who kind of brainwashed them.
I don't have anything against Albania as long as it acts fairly.
Now, about those missing people from Kosovo... I mean they had to vanish somehow, right?
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Ghost said:
Door knob resembles anus tap.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted February 01, 2013 05:13 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 17:28, 01 Feb 2013.
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Now, about those missing people from Kosovo... I mean they had to vanish somehow, right?
What exactly do you mean with vanish and whom? Serbs, Albanians, Ottomans,Roma?
If you mean missing persons from the recent conflicts, then they are probably dead. If you mean something else, please elaborate. Though,if its something historical, dont ask me. I really dont care that much about that.
I have something to ask you, why do serbs dislike or hate croats and vice versa? Is it because of recent history and ww2?
To me, Croats share the same culture language and history with the serbs, so why are you so bitter with them? Of course I may be ignorant to the presence of cultural or historical reasons or that I have mis percieved something but appart from that,there seems to be a certain animosity between Serbs and Croats.
Some comments I have read say there is no animosity, some others I have read were complete hate speech.
Or, let me guess, its religion? Roman Catholic vs Orthodox Christian?
@xerox
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Yugoslavia should have abolished religion when it had the chance.
Yugoslavia did supress religion and nationalistic movements.
One thing that Yugoslavia deserved praise, suppression of religion.
Communist albania abolished religion and turned religious objects into depots.
But then, religion got replaced by praising the "Godly" Enver Hoxha.
Probably most europeans never heard of him. He was the Kim Jong Il of Europe...
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