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| Thread: After all these years isnt there a widely recognized balance mod? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted December 04, 2012 11:43 PM |
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After all these years isnt there a widely recognized balance mod?
I am not talking here about wog or era but small changes to vanilla H3.
TE is a good attempt but in some cases (hero classes, stack exp, total creature redistribution, etc) went too far.
(Maybe it is done but I am not aware) Why isn't there a stronger endorsement behind one mod that fixes some bugs and rebalances the game a little?
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Star_King
Known Hero
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posted December 05, 2012 03:26 AM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 05, 2012 04:18 AM |
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Quote:
There's this:
http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8806
Which seems pretty extensive. But yeah, it's not widely recognized, and HOMMIII is far too old for there to be any hope of one becoming standard at this point.
i tried this on Era with the standard Mod Name/Data/Files setting but it doesn't work, i even tried turning off Wog as a mod. With Wog game crashes, without Wog it opens but the changes don't apply. it could have been a nice little mod though.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 05, 2012 05:33 AM |
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Such mod will never be done because: a) we don't know two persons which agree on what should be changed, b) if something is considered as unbalanced it can be easily avoided by fixing rules.
Personally I have no clue on why some people keep complaining game is not balanced. There is some luck involved, as in random artefacts, spells and skills pick but more you play, less your rank is falling to luck only.
Artu, that mod is for SoD only. I never saw the author playing in any major tournament so I am circumspect about so many changes. But I respect his work.
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Era II mods and utilities
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted December 05, 2012 02:22 PM |
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WT version looks good enough. Imho it badly needs better documentation and again they should lose some of the "wild" changes. But in rest it addresses all major issues with H3.
Just add a simple way to select: "TOURNAMENT SETTINGS". => Same settings for everyone. WCL endorses it and next year it is de facto for everybody. There are not so many changes that players cannot addapt to without a sweat.
It is so sad to see that so much needed bug fixes and improvements are overlooked just because people find it simple to revert to vanilla and add tons of rules on top (that can be circumvented...)
ps. just a thought. One of the reasons why mods are not widely accepted is that for every improvement the mod brings there need to be some minor changes that cannot be disabled... For EX you cannot have the new battle interface from yona's mod without the changes to pikemen, cavaliers and orcs... So what do you do? You revert to vanilla + HD.
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted December 05, 2012 02:56 PM |
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Heroes III is a mess balance-wise, because it was designed as a single-player game first, with multiplayer thrown in because "Why not ?". Randomness doesn't have much to do with it. Hypnosis, Landmine, Fireblast, Misfortune continue to be bad spells no matter how you slice it. There's probably a custom map where you have to defeat lots of goblins using only 1 gnoll and your only spell is Landmine. That's not enough to convince me. Learning, First Aid, Artillery, Scholar, Eagle Eye are terrible skills with no redeeming qualities.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 05, 2012 03:05 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 15:08, 05 Dec 2012.
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it was done for heroes 4 (even though I still think the genies were too strong). but on heroes 5 and 6, whereas the players had the ability to balance the game themselves, it seems they prefered to rely on developpers.
well, there were balance mods for heroes V, but I don't think there was any which became the norm for playing the game, like H4 equilibris.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 05, 2012 03:16 PM |
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Quote:
WT version looks good enough. Imho it badly needs better documentation and again they should lose some of the "wild" changes. But in rest it addresses all major issues with H3.
Just add a simple way to select: "TOURNAMENT SETTINGS". => Same settings for everyone. WCL endorses it and next year it is de facto for everybody. There are not so many changes that players cannot addapt to without a sweat.
It is so sad to see that so much needed bug fixes and improvements are overlooked just because people find it simple to revert to vanilla and add tons of rules on top (that can be circumvented...)
ps. just a thought. One of the reasons why mods are not widely accepted is that for every improvement the mod brings there need to be some minor changes that cannot be disabled... For EX you cannot have the new battle interface from yona's mod without the changes to pikemen, cavaliers and orcs... So what do you do? You revert to vanilla + HD.
Every Yona feature can be turned on or off manually in Era II Folder/Mods/Yona/Data/Yona/settings.
i really hate it when people overuse abbreviations. nothing in this thread starts with WT or WCL so what are they referring to?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 05, 2012 03:40 PM |
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Quote:
Heroes III is a mess balance-wise, because it was designed as a single-player game first, with multiplayer thrown in because "Why not ?".
You still sing the same broken music. Have you idea how many MP games of Heroes 3 were played daily after release? Up to 200 and with random settings, which shows no one considered balance a mess. If it was "why not" I hardly see ten thousand players register and spend so much time with, and this before any single map was done. Do you know there is right now a tournament running great, 10 years later? If you know many games having that long life, name me some please. Constantly going "I am right and ten thousand players are wrong" is laughable, sorry.
A few spells out of 69 are useless, means is a mess? Some of those you consider useless are useless only to you still. Some skills are better than others, and what? Except learning there is no useless skill in heroes, play some and you will find out. The reward and deep of H3 far outweigh its few drawbacks, and this is the most important.
@artu: WCL, it has its own forum here.
WT is a mod based on wog, which is used by some players from WCL.
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Era II mods and utilities
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted December 05, 2012 04:34 PM |
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Edited by b0rsuk at 16:37, 05 Dec 2012.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 05, 2012 04:53 PM |
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Your game:
Average Game Duration: 29 mn
This is what 3 turns of Heroes take in MP. Short games do not have to be good to be mass played, everyone can spare half hour on crap now and then. Long games as Heroes (8 to 20 hours to complete) require good balance and qualities to keep people up.
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Era II mods and utilities
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 05, 2012 06:07 PM |
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Quote:
Learning, First Aid, Artillery, Scholar, Eagle Eye are terrible skills with no redeeming qualities.
Scholar is a really good skill. Actually i don't even wogify it for the extra enhancements. If you can get scholar to a hero with expert earth magic and town portal he can then travel all town guards giving them every spell up to fourth level, he can get spells as powerful as resurrection, meteor shower, prayer from tavern heroes even if you cant build magic guild. Having expert scholar sometimes determines who wins.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 05, 2012 07:54 PM |
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People who never played and won against better opponent usually deliver simplified analysis. What is the point in comparing the skills, your main hero has only 8 slots, he can't get them all anyway. He must become a fight machine and here the path to choose is predestined. 1-2 magic schools, movement, natural fighting skills (armorer, offense, archery), wisdom and here we have almost all slots busy.
What they ignore is the required mechanics and strategies one player has to develop in order to win a game. A victory is due to all your moves on the map, all your heroes who every turn took responsibilities from your main, giving him extra opportunity to level faster.
And here the so called "useless" skills play their strong role. Having a scholar scout saves time up to several days. In various cases expert aid will make the difference when taking early a full conservatory. Scouting can be great to spot in first place your enemy scouts and break his chain. It will cost him time to reorder it. Artillery is awesome, just try a first week with gurnisson and see how fast he levels. Eagle eye, as mentioned can save from desperate situations if used well. All those secondary heros will be able, due to their versatility, to let your main fight only important battles while they take care of all minor things and of your economy which is the backbone of the game. All this time you gain is time deducted from your opponent game play. Because of this, several levels ahead, more spells, more artefacts, better economy, more map visibility and control will give a well earned victory.
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Era II mods and utilities
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted December 05, 2012 09:13 PM |
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Edited by b0rsuk at 21:16, 05 Dec 2012.
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Is this why Scholar is very common on Alchemists, who are Tower's Might heroes (and meant to be the main hero for your town) ? Why does Witch get Eagle Eye very often ? Same reason. Flavor. They didn't give a damn about power balance.
So you get a skill choice between Scholar and one of: Logistics, Armorer, Offense, Earth Magic, Intelligence, Wisdom, or even Pathfinding. Which do you choose ? How likely it is that you choose Scholar ?
You're grasping at straws.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 05, 2012 09:34 PM |
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Every class has its priorities path but only an inexperienced player will claim each town army has to be lead by that town hero class. We have a pattern of leveling unique to each class. Up to us to recruit and develop specific class heros so they can suit what we seek. We have a tavern and a max of 8 available heros, right? If 3Do idea was to create balance between classes they would have restricted the access to other classes in tavern, but they did not. They give the choice.
I see no point in comparing witches to knights or whatever. They will be used for different purposes. It seems to me you are doing same comparisons as the ones saying a ghost dragon is weaker than an archangel, a behemot slower than a phoenix and so on. On paper many things appear as un-balanced but once we get deeper and try millions of possible combinations, we find that finally things marry quite well. There is no better faction, all can win if played well.
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Era II mods and utilities
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 05, 2012 10:26 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:28, 05 Dec 2012.
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Quote:
So you get a skill choice between Scholar and one of: Logistics, Armorer, Offense, Earth Magic, Intelligence, Wisdom, or even Pathfinding.
scholar is for side-kicks mostly, but if i'm in a situation where i'm offered scholar as the last skill i have to pick leveling up, i don't feel bad about it. i will definitely pick it over intelligence. and if i have logistics and the map isn't all swamp or snow etc etc i will pick it over pathfinding. i once had a hero with powerful archers and expert earth yet slow didn't come up in any of the magic guilds, so i learned it with scholar from a tavern hero and it literally saved me.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted December 05, 2012 10:47 PM |
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I knew it is a sensitive issue...
What I am trying to say is that in multilayer it is mostly randoms, but even for fixed maps is applicable.
I think none is arguing that even "bad" spells can be useful in situations but you cannot deny that after countless hours of playing some strategies proved better. (not 100% of time but enough to dishearten anyone who tried differently).
And to the ones suggesting that the game is perfectly balanced... think about what are the chances it came up the right way from the begging.
So I am starting heroes anew (after some years) and I would like to play with some of the annoying stuff fixed. I am just surprised that even some stuff where opinion should be close to unanimous (like bugs, air shield, artifact selling...) is not the "default" version people are playing. And here is the job of WCL and the like. When rules are changed in NBA everyone follows suit.
As a solution I see: Thin down the WT version a little, document it better and set it mandatory for next season.
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juderiverman
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 25, 2013 04:22 PM |
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Quote:
WT version looks good enough. Imho it badly needs better documentation and again they should lose some of the "wild" changes. But in rest it addresses all major issues with H3.
Just add a simple way to select: "TOURNAMENT SETTINGS". => Same settings for everyone. WCL endorses it and next year it is de facto for everybody. There are not so many changes that players cannot addapt to without a sweat.
It is so sad to see that so much needed bug fixes and improvements are overlooked just because people find it simple to revert to vanilla and add tons of rules on top (that can be circumvented...)
ps. just a thought. One of the reasons why mods are not widely accepted is that for every improvement the mod brings there need to be some minor changes that cannot be disabled... For EX you cannot have the new battle interface from yona's mod without the changes to pikemen, cavaliers and orcs... So what do you do? You revert to vanilla + HD.
wish HD mod would pick up the task. HD mod already addressed some issues (such as artifact selling bug) and hopefully more would be dealt with.
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batoonike
Known Hero
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posted January 29, 2013 04:32 PM |
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Just to add +1 people in this cause: I would strongly discourage changing or "fixing" anything about "balance" that is not obvious bug. That is, view town bug, armorer vs towers etc. Anything about "useless" skills, heroes or creatures becoming better will never be widely accepted.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 30, 2013 01:51 AM |
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Right now Baratorch is working on a HD version that has allready given a lot of major improvements, but keeps the original game intact. I believe he is getting pretty close to the end version that I think will be the version most players will use in the future. (there will allways be some people who prefers the easy version.) Its very hard work so people should send the guy some donations to motivate him.
There will allways be some rules, since people have diffrent opinions about what should be allowed and since there is no reson to totally remove certain things from the game when you can just make a rule about them. People may want to use these options in special games or single player games. When you get used to the rules they are not really a problem to play by.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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