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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted February 20, 2013 09:41 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 21:44, 20 Feb 2013.
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I don't really think the federal government has any business or Constitutional power to tell employers what they must pay their employees or how little a person can work for. Especially if the employer is only doing business in one state.
Secondly, the costs of living and of doing business varies from state to state, city to city, and neighborhood to neighborhood. Any minimum wage that is set should be set on a local basis, not on a national basis.
Thirdly, the folks who wind up setting the minimum wage in general have never run a business, have no clue as to how to run a business, and have proven themselves incapable of balancing the federal budget or state budgets (as far as state minimum wages.)
Most employers value their good workers and won't to pay them enough to keep them working for their company instead of moving to a competitor.
In general the labor cost and cost of keeping employee paperwork, insurance, and other benefits is the highest cost associated with most businesses. Yeah, employers DO have to keep costs down so there is a limit on how much they can pay workers and still make a reasonable profit.
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Revelation
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted February 20, 2013 10:08 PM |
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Quote:
Thirdly, the folks who wind up setting the minimum wage in general have never run a business, have no clue as to how to run a business, and have proven themselves incapable of balancing the federal budget or state budgets (as far as state minimum wages.)
Not exactly......
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fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 20, 2013 10:27 PM |
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Quote:
I've never heard of a free market supporter complaining about foreigners taking low wage jobs. I see it as something very positive.
you think exploitation is very positive?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 20, 2013 10:32 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:36, 20 Feb 2013.
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dd: I'm trying to uncover why it is so extremly rare for a Swedish company not to sign a union treaty. Even my mum, a salesperson who practically employs herself, gets union treaty wages (and more, based on performance). Also since about a year or so back, people who hire foreign labour are forced to sign a union treaty. I think it's a bad law which only real purpose is to make less people labour immigrate. If you want to prevent exploitation, you would just have legalized to make the wage contract legally binding (which it strangely isn't).
fauch: If a foreign person contacts a Swedish employer and agrees on a wage - no matter how high or low that wage is - then I really don't see a problem with that. It's also positive for the economy since these are usually the kinds of jobs that nobody else will do (like picking berries or planting trees)
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted February 20, 2013 10:37 PM |
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Xerox: Because the majority of the workforce was at some point union unless they where only using extremely well educated sparse labor.
So per legacy, about all companies where union tainted companies until some point. And going by what you say, your unions either negotiate up for all the types of employs that are hired, companies who hires mostly foreign workforce do union agreements out of pure Swedish goodwill with negotiating, or you are looking at the exact same situation that is in Norway but your newspapers report it differently.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 20, 2013 10:45 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:52, 20 Feb 2013.
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Quote:
out of pure Swedish goodwill
No, they are forced to sign union treaty agreements when hiring foreign labour. I'm against that law and am generally sceptical towards the huge influence these union treaties have when it comes to regulating wages. These huge wages have devastating effects on youth employment.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted February 20, 2013 10:51 PM |
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Thats actually rather interesting. Didn't know. Various solidaric political directions usually calls for such a law over here whenever there is another incident of some larger newspaper reporting about various foreign camps setup by smaller firms underpaying their workers for, usually Polish and related to construction work.
However if there is a general high level of unemployment, would lower wages actually increase employment if the economy is in horrible shape anyhow?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 20, 2013 10:54 PM |
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I also support DF moving out of Poland. Come on, there's free migration within the EU. What's stopping you?
There are some issues. Suppose I go to a better country... but what then? I need cash there to survive 2-3 months until I find a job... and I can't save anything atm.
Also, 0,5 years of experience is a bit too low to be valued as an employee. I need at least two years.
So... not yet, I'm afraid 
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 20, 2013 10:58 PM |
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The Swedish economy is actually in a very good shape. We have low debt relative to BNP and untill now, our export industry has largely been spared from the recent crisises. Sweden has a youth unemployment of about 25% (including people who study). If you look at Germany, or just across the strait in Denmark, their youth employment isn't even half as dire. Why? In Denmark and Germany, young people don't get huge wages from their first jobs. In Sweden, young people have actually INCREASED their wages by 40% during the last ten years and during the same period, youth unemployment has increased aswell.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2013 10:16 PM |
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I just saw some footage from Cambodja. There people are working in factories for such low wages, a quarter of a dollar an hour, that people are having a hard time getting food for the day. There was a single mum, living in a hut, who had to work 70 hours a week to support her two children. People collapsing on the factory floor is a regular sight. What can be done to improve the lives of these people?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2013 11:38 PM |
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Good question.
- Eliminate trade barriers in first-world countries, so we can buy more of what these poor workers can produce. If what they produce is in higher demand, they'll be paid more.
- Encourage third-world countries to eliminate their trade barriers, so these poor workers would be able to buy cheaper foreign goods and be less restricted to more expensive domestic goods.
- Encourage third-world countries to respect property rights, as in some cases these sweatshops are only the best option because governments seize people's property or otherwise interfere with it.
- Open borders. If these people can become immigrants and work in first-world countries, they'll be paid much more (even if it's still not much).
- Intelligent charitable giving. Give to charities that promote sexual education (and education in general).
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Eccentric Opinion
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 01, 2013 12:30 AM |
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The only solution is to get away from such a country and never come back. Getting some education and practice + learning a foreign language is possible, and after that ... ABANDON SHIP.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2013 12:58 AM |
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Quote:
What can be done to improve the lives of these people?
treating them like humans
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted March 01, 2013 01:06 AM |
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Quote:
The only solution is to get away from such a country and never come back. Getting some education and practice + learning a foreign language is possible, and after that ... ABANDON SHIP.
For a particular individual (perhaps. A better standard of living might not even be worth the stress and sacrifice of abandoning friends, family, and culture). The dilemma here is that people vacating the country indefinitely contributes to the cause of the country's continued poverty. That's why some long-term investing needs to be done to build up the country from the inside.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 01, 2013 01:08 AM |
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Unless everybody leaves and the country just disbands!  
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted March 01, 2013 03:01 AM |
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The 'businesses will do what is best for their employees' has already been proven false in China. Where people are generally paid wages that force them to live in large families, or starve, and the are worked more hours then they should. Now some will say 'but they can quit and go to another job'. To what end? Every business has seen that it works, is legal, and has followed suit. So yeah they can quit, just to find a job EXACTLY like the one they left..if they are lucky. If not..well they can just starve right? Serves the bums right hey?
It's simple really. A business will pay as little as it can, and get away with it. ESPECIALLY corporations. Somebody quits, there is always another poor starved soul to take their place. No biggy. If you are hungry enough, you will do any job, for any number of hours. Even more so if your kids are hungry. So yes, companies would start taking advantage of people if allowed. There are many companies that pay good wages and manage to make a decent profit. If they can legally pay whatever they want, those good paying jobs will vanish like smoke..to be replaced by jobs that pay pennies. It's not a 'if' it is a 'when'. Just look to the big countries like India and China if you don't believe it.
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Message received.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 01, 2013 08:30 AM |
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Quote:
It's simple really. A business will pay as little as it can, and get away with it. ESPECIALLY corporations. Somebody quits, there is always another poor starved soul to take their place. No biggy. If you are hungry enough, you will do any job, for any number of hours. Even more so if your kids are hungry. So yes, companies would start taking advantage of people if allowed. There are many companies that pay good wages and manage to make a decent profit. If they can legally pay whatever they want, those good paying jobs will vanish like smoke..to be replaced by jobs that pay pennies. It's not a 'if' it is a 'when'. Just look to the big countries like India and China if you don't believe it.
That's not entirely true, yet for the most part you're right. Every private organization on the market seeks greater profit. One of the ways to increase it is to reduce the wages - which make up for a great part of the expenses. Lately, the mainstream approach is to outsource every service or production which can be outsourced. If the locals are too organized, have too many social protections for your taste and require too high payment (in your opinion) - move to India. Or to another Asian country. Or to Eastern Europe. You'll get several people who will do exactly the same job and usually even better for much lower payment. In some cases the outsourced workers will work in terrible conditions but if this is considered "normal" for the given country, nobody cares.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2013 05:03 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 17:10, 01 Mar 2013.
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Quote:
Eliminate trade barriers in first-world countries, so we can buy more of what these poor workers can produce. If what they produce is in higher demand, they'll be paid more.
In this case, we ARE buying the clothes that these Cambodian workers are producing. I bought some myself today. Of course the cloth company is making a huge profit on these low wages (aswell as from the fact that their products are selling). How does these huge profits improve the lives of the low-wage workers?
Quote:
Encourage third-world countries to eliminate their trade barriers, so these poor workers would be able to buy cheaper foreign goods and be less restricted to more expensive domestic goods.
The mum I mentioned didn't even have a proper house. She had no electronics and not even a stove. Atleast in her situation, I have a hard time imagining any imported goods that would be cheaper for her to buy. On open borders, I support that even though it probably won't do much for these people. It's not exactly free, nor completly safe, to get a ride to Europe.
blizzardboy: I'm not sure that the brain drain phenomenone is true. Third world immigrants often send a part of their wage back to their home countries. There are also those who get a good education in a first world country and then return to their home country to practice their profession.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted March 01, 2013 05:09 PM |
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I think it is rather important for anyone wishing to abolish minimum wage, to look up why they were set in the first place. Such a silly argument in my opinion, a more interesting discussion is weather the unions have too much power and can keep the salaries of workers too high.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2013 07:29 PM |
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I suppose too high is when you have enough to rent a flat and buy food?
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This thread is pages long: 
