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| Thread: Multiculturalism or national identity? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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xerox
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posted March 14, 2013 09:48 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:19, 14 Mar 2013.
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Poll Question:
Multiculturalism or national identity?
I've been thinking a lot about this lately.
Which concept would you prefer a state to be built on:
1. Multiculturalism
This state does not promote any kind of patriotism and does not pursue the preservation of a common, national identity. In this state, pararell societies might not be rare to see. Citizenship doesn't really matter outside of identification and immigrants are free to live by their native cultures. Perhaps even if the culture contains values that are the opposite of what the state considers values based on human rights. Studies show that people trust each other less in multicultural enviroments.
2. National identity
This state promotes a national identity built around shared values that don't have to be tied to culture or history. Citizenship is important but based on these values instead of ethnicity, culture and history. Foreign values that oppose the state's natonal values are discouraged or or in some cases outlawed. History shows that trying to unify different people with a single, national identity could end up in catastrophe or even war.
3. National conservatism
National values and native culture is actively promoted by the state. Foreign values and culture that risks to outcompete or oppose native culture and values are outlawed. Citizenship is based around common values, culture and history and is also likely to be tied to ethnicity. The state promotes patriotism.
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gnomes2169
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posted March 14, 2013 10:06 PM |
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Why can't I have a little of both? A country with a national identity that incorporates key features from other cultures to synthesize a superior culture seems like the best rout to go... Just saying, this is an instance where both black and white equally suck.  And a little more accurate way to define Nationalism is either a country that has fascist or Xenophobic tendencies toward outside cultures and identieies.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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xerox
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posted March 14, 2013 10:12 PM |
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The national identity option doesn't need to be nationalism or isolationims. An open and free state can still focus on having a national identity with shared values. Like the US used to be.
I'll broaden the poll.
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mvassilev
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posted March 14, 2013 10:13 PM |
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Neither.
Cultures should be thought of as consisting of sub-components (practices, commonly-held values, etc). Some of these components are good, some are neutral, and some are bad. Suppose a given country has a dominant culture, with traits {gender equality, eating turkey, anti-intellectualism}. Immigrants to that country tend to have a different culture, with traits {patriarchy, eating rice, intellectual achievement}. A multiculturalist would say that both groups should be able to keep their own cultures and should respect each other. An assimilationist would say the immigrants should accept the culture of the country’s native-born residents. I disagree with both. Each culture should adopt the traits of the other culture in the areas where the other culture is better. Each group should be able to keep the neutral parts of its culture if it wants to. So, in my example, after the transfer of ideas/practices, there would be two groups: {gender equality, eats turkey, intellectual achievement} and {gender egalitarianism, eats rice, intellectual achievement}.
As far as immigration to Western countries goes, immigrants should adopt the positive values of Western culture (gender equality, religious pluralism, rationalism, individualism) and native Westerners should adopt the positive values of some immigrants (a high value placed on intellectual achievement, frugality, practicality). Other values/practices are neutral and don’t matter.
As policy, this would be mostly encouraged through the public education system. Teach “critical thinking”/”lifestyle choices”, a class which would also include things like, “It’s fine if you want to get someone pregnant and drop out of school, but then you’ll probably be poor for the rest of your life.” Also, the state would take action against people who, say, beat women and children, even if that's part of their culture. But other than that, the state should be neutral.
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Eccentric Opinion
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xerox
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posted March 14, 2013 10:24 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:39, 14 Mar 2013.
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Okay, so positive values and culture is promoted through the public education system. But what about bad values and culture (such as circumcision in a state with liberal values), should the state outlaw those? And who decide which values are good and which values are bad? The state's consitution? The people, meaning that some values would outcompete other values?
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted March 14, 2013 10:31 PM |
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can't we have both?
I mean, I know this doesn't sound like much, but the Britain I identify with is not the same one my parents, or my grandparents, identify with. I've got friends who are muslim, buddhist, sikh, hindu, catholic, jewish, methodist, jehovahs witness, and atheist, not anglican church. I've eaten in a curry house, a sushi bar and a pizzaria whilst in London. I drink rum, wine vodka along with cider and whiskey, whilst listening to j-pop, smooth jazz and death metal along in an pub. I've watch german plays in an theatre by the river Wey performed by a pole, a spaniard, an american and a frenchwoman.
Doesn't make what I experience any less British to me. To me, this is Britain. All those people I've spent time with were British too, or at least born in Britain, which is the only way to determine Britishness. Yeah, Sunday roasts are nice, I admire the queen and I respect the jack, but as for national identity and multiculturalism, I'd day "Can't we have both?" To me, I identify my national identity with a multicultural nation, it's not a exclusive thing here.
I suppose the way the question is phrased, I would put national identity but at the same time, to me, that has become a become a byword for bigots and hateful people to suppress me and who I am, and so I can't in good conscience put it.
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xerox
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posted March 14, 2013 10:38 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:40, 14 Mar 2013.
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The national identity option does not exclude beneficial foreign culture (such as sushi). It rather opposes culture that isn't compatible with national values. For instance, in a modern western democracy, sushi and anime would be okay but not culture that promotes gender inequality and segregation.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 14, 2013 11:39 PM |
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As long as real parallel societies do not form inside a nation, it's alright. If they do form, we'll see civil war sooner or later.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted March 14, 2013 11:39 PM |
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I believe that civil liberties need to be upheld, and foreign individuals may practice whatever they wish in their private holdings. However once they enter society at large (work/public places et cetera) they need to respect the culture/religion of the state.
You'd find this surprising, but I found that foreigners are far more susceptible to local culture and the merits of work and promoting the values of their new country than the natives. (at least in my experience)
I voted for conservatism, so long as the individual owes their loyalty to the new country and culture then they are true citizens, but zero tolerance for praemunire.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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xerox
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posted March 14, 2013 11:53 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 23:53, 14 Mar 2013.
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Why are pararell societies bad?
Is a national identity nescessary to prevent them?
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blizzardboy
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posted March 14, 2013 11:55 PM |
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It's far better to be a bigot in the selection process than to be a bigot after the fact that they arrive. It's essential that any concerns of a group of people's compatibility with a country be addressed with their application for citizenship. Once that is done, I don't see anything but open multiculturalism as viable. Retrospective legislation that kneejerk constituencies pressure their representatives into passing creates tensions and, quite the opposite to helping people integrate, makes immigrants prone to stubbornness. As far as adopting good or bad behaviors, I think these things have a way of gradually kneading out on their own. If a good behavior needs to be extolled by outside powers, it really makes one question if it is a good behavior at all. After all, few people are masochists. They want what is best for themselves. Even people with bad attributes and habits will usually fess up to the fact that it's a bad habit, as long as you don't ask them in a dickheadish way that instigates them to be defensive.
So I support multiculturalism.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 15, 2013 12:06 AM |
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Quote:
Why are pararell societies bad?
Is a national identity nescessary to prevent them?
Parallel societies lead to conflicts of interest, more so than normal. These conflicts can ignite a larger, more serious strife between the societies. Worst case, civil war.
Strong national identity is not necessary to prevent parallel societies, just keeping some form of common interests and common culture is enough.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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xerox
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posted March 15, 2013 12:11 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 00:14, 15 Mar 2013.
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I consider common interests and culture to be more than enough to qualify for national identity.
Any real life examples of pararell societies causing trouble?
Blizz: For you to support the multicult. option, the citizenship must have nothing to do with history, culture or values.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 15, 2013 12:19 AM |
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Israel, sudan, sweden...
I consider national identity to be what the person answers when you ask him where he's from/what's his identity(I do not know how to translate this sentence to English but hopefully you'll get the idea). So if he answers stockholm(ian), there's little national identity but if he answers swede(n) there's more.
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Elodin
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posted March 15, 2013 12:22 AM |
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Every nation has an overarching "national identity." Various cultures will exist within all nations but the government should not try to stamp those different cultures out.
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blizzardboy
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posted March 15, 2013 12:25 AM |
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Those are over-the-top Swedish standards. In that sense, probably 1% of the world population is multiculturist. National history is easy to overlook, culture is fairly easy to overlook, but values are extremely hard to overlook, and for good reason. If somebody values Shariah Law, which every orthodox, non-pussified Muslim should, then you're looking at a very real issue, as opposed to some vain squabble over country of origin.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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xerox
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posted March 15, 2013 12:26 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 00:28, 15 Mar 2013.
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What about people saying that they're somali-swedish, syrian-swedish or iraqi-swedish? Doesn't that mean that they're also a part of the swedish national identity?
Sweden having highly segregated areas is largely due to many immigrants having a bad economy and residental policies being fracked up (rents are regulated and subsidized which has created a huuuuge housing shortage, the housing market has never really been free)
Blizz: So some values should be restricted, even in an multicultural society? What if adults want to live with shariah laws, shouldn't they be allowed to make that choice?
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mvassilev
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posted March 15, 2013 12:32 AM |
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Quote:
But what about bad values and culture (such as circumcision in a state with liberal values), should the state outlaw those? And who decide which values are good and which values are bad?
At that point, it's a question of liberty/personal autonomy/nonaggression, not just cultural values. Child circumcision is a violation of the nonaggression principle. Just like people shouldn't be allowed to murder even if their culture/religion/whatever says it's okay. Good values are those that promote human well-being, but there are values the state is bad at promoting, and can at best promote in a very limited way (such as through education)
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blizzardboy
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posted March 15, 2013 12:33 AM |
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Well it would be a jurisdiction issue then, because Shariah Law comes into major conflict with what Sweden's laws would be. Stoning adulterers, flogging fornicators, stoning homosexual acts, cutting off the hand of somebody that steals something worth more than the value equivalent of a shield (which in the modern sense would translate around the cost of a motorcycle), making the hijab mandatory in public, and the motherload that would cause far more issue than any of those other things: the closing of alcoholic distilleries.
So if you were going to have a Shariah state within a secular state, I'm not sure how else you would pull it off other than to have a distinct zone with distinct jurisdiction from the rest of the country. It would need to be sovereign in its own right, except for maybe things like a joint national defense and transportation, etc.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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xerox
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posted March 15, 2013 12:37 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 00:45, 15 Mar 2013.
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Yes, cutting hands of thieves would be a potential punishment for an adult person who chooses to go under shariah law instead of swedish law. Of course, there are also less controversial parts of shariah such as muslim banks and courts.
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